Author Topic: More 1.2 feedback  (Read 15746 times)

UniqPhoeniX

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More 1.2 feedback
« on: April 15, 2010, 05:29:03 pm »
I know I'm spsed to put some/most of these in the bug tracker, but I'm not rly willing to make yet another account somewhere, especially with public email address, and then post each 1 by 1, so:

1) RC sometimes zaps a lot stronger then normally, 14 hp per hit (instead of ~1 hp) if you are on top of a corner with mara/goon, and it does this continuously during that RC hop (which usually fails miserably).
2) Camera still spins when wallwalking against another player. This is the most annoying bug since tesla bug IMO.
3) Dying from buildable explosion displays a suicide kill msg.
4) While jetpack is active, can't hear luci beep. I think this applies to repair/beep sound while poisoned as well.
5) Unnamed players still cause " disconnected" messages.
6) Building a repeater just barely outside powered area kills it. Sux really bad if it is built to replace another repeater (1 area loses power and builder gets build queue). Could only reproduce just outside rep power area, not just outside RC power area.
7) Acid tubes don't start firing at you if the bottom of their bbox is not visible, although if someone else triggers them, they can damage you
8) Death cam aims way above killer.
9) Lucijump takes twice the hp it did in 1.1

10) The goon chomp/pounce range are ridiculously short, sometimes standing right in front of or even WALKING AGAINST someone who is walking backwards/standing still can't be hit. Also it seems to be easier to chomp players walking towards you and nearly impossible to hit those walking away.

11) Why no eggs on walls?
12) Main Menu->Quit->YES to credits screen, then moving mouse to top/bottom of screen causes same sound effect as hovering over menu button, but repeatedly.
13) What happened to ammo and clips being shown on HUD (not as numbers, but as rectangles/bars)??
14) I still say the new FoV sux balz.

15) Dretch = 180 cred? Especially now that it is weaker (tho faster).
16) Hitting an alien once gives full creds if it dies in rets?
17) You still don't have a proper rotation. I can provide 1 that works on 1.1, so if rotation code hasn't changed you only need to add/change map names.
18) Slope jumping makes moving around maps too easy.

19) Dead buildables deconnable makes RC (or any other buildable) rebuild too quick.
20) I think the bug that causes some sounds to repeat is still there. It happens when the player that creates those sounds goes in/out of your PVS, in which case the sound starts from beginning each time that player gets IN your PVS and it is not stopped when they go out.
21) Map ambient sounds start when the source gets in your PVS but don't stop when it goes out, which means once you hear an ambient sound somewhere, you can always hear it (if it is close/loud enough) even through walls. For example on nexus6 take dretch, go to the generator control panel, and you won't hear any ambient sounds. But once you go to the entrance opposite where you came in from, you hear the hissing of a broken pipe, and you will still hear it when you go back to the control panel.
22) +goon snipe splash effect can be seen through walls.

23) Repeaters: There is NO indication of nor control over which repeater powers what, making them difficult to use in groups, and probably very unintuitive. How about showing how much RC/reps give bp and how much is used, below hp bar perhaps? As ckit secondary is no longer used, maybe use that to change which repeater powers the targeted buildable? Atm a buildable can only get power from closest repeater, so 2 reps near each other can't power 4 buildables close to 1 of them.
If rep A is powering X, can't build Y in rep B power area if it overlaps X.
Reps don't have bp queue, which combined with reps giving more bps then they take can be used to make a better base then you could at RC. For example on Niveus H default, you could move RC to back corner, and put 5 repeaters in the next room, with 10 buildings which can be instantly rebuilt. Or on Thermal, the large room near human base, with RC in corner fits 8 repeaters, all in 1 large area, giving a total of 8 rets in RC power area, 16 buildings at reps, and 4 bps left over. Not sure if this is a bad thing, considering such bases are more difficult to build, but it can certainly make human bases much stronger.
Sometimes if 2 reps are marked, and when building a new one to replace 1 of them, they will both be removed even if the 2nd doesn't overlap.
Sometimes if reps are marked, and trying to build at RC, it says not enough power remaining, tho there should be.

24) buildlog msg doesn't have ^7 before name.
25) When using blaster, then immediately try to switch to primary weapon, it will not switch (instead of waiting a little and then switching).
26) When you get a buildable blueprint and then immediately switch to blaster, sometimes the blueprint will stay.
27) Turret blueprint only contains the base model.

28) Rep model is slightly above ground.
29) What about making chained zap damage depend on distance between targets? That way the huge difference between a buildable being just in/out of another buildable's zap range would be smaller (tho that might significantly affect balance).
30) I managed to repeatedly build an unpowered ret in a place where some powerzones overlapped (didn't have to build in an exact place), tho ofc at least 1 of the reps always had power for it. This only worked when that repeater already powered 1 other ret.
31) listlayouts only finds default *BUILTIN* layout, tho layoutSave and layoutLoad work fine.
32) Trying to get blueprint while aiming at nobuild area -> "You cannot build that structure"
33) It seems building inside a trigger_whatever will make the buildable constantly activate that trigger. (building turret on thermal lava dam button triggers it)
34) All binds and settings reset when joining a modded server for first time, incl r_fullscreen and name reset (to 0 and username), r_height and width also reset, tho not used before vid_restart (and screwed up my screen since it still used windowed size r_height and width, without reseting to previous screen resolution on quit).
35) Newlines in /* */ in a .cfg close the quote, so "/*quoted text\n*/" gives "Unknown command */".
36) It is sometimes possible to shoot luci through pipes, depends on distance to pipe surface and maybe luciball speed/charge (2ndary definitely acts differently). Easy to test on arachnid, for some reason it happens more easily there, or with that pipe size. From the right distance you can even shoot through the nexus6 generator glass pipe...
37) Movement speed is not being added to barb speed, you can actually move faster then the barb this way... also high human bases/jetcampers are more difficult to hit.
38) /give all gives medikit to aliens, and you can activate it when not full hp by scrolling inventory once and pressing mid mouse button... (Yes, WTF)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 08:38:16 pm by UniqPhoeniX »

tuple

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 07:18:42 pm »
17) You still don't have a proper rotation. I can provide 1 that works on 1.1, so if rotation code hasn't changed you only need to add/change map names.

How do you mean?

There's a new maprotation on US1 by the way ;)
When there's more than 20 players nano and atcs are removed and added are: Orion, metro-b1 and procyon.  When it drops below 20 players it reverts back to the original maprotation.

benmachine

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 07:46:40 pm »
Most of these are pretty interesting and I'll either look at them or put them on the bugtracker when I have time (i.e. never ;) )
If I've not mentioned something below it means that sounds like a bug worth fixing.

7) Acid tubes don't start firing at you if the bottom of their bbox is not visible, although if someone else triggers them, they can damage you
I don't think this is exactly a bug. It's more an interesting facet of how tubes work.

Quote
11) Why no eggs on walls?
This is a design decision, not a bug. I think they'd look kind of silly.

Quote
13) What happened to ammo and clips being shown on HUD (not as numbers, but as rectangles/bars)??
This was a toy I made and may or may not be incorporated into the 1.2 HUD depending on how that develops. I liked it conceptually but it wasn't very pretty.

Quote
14) I still say the new FoV sux balz.
It'd be useful for you to elaborate what specific problem you have, but I don't see any issue personally.

Quote
15) Dretch = 180 cred? Especially now that it is weaker (tho faster).

Balance issue, not a bug; you can ask Norf if you like but I don't think it's likely to change.

Quote
10) The goon chomp/pounce range are ridiculously short, sometimes standing right in front of or even WALKING AGAINST someone who is walking backwards/standing still can't be hit. Also it seems to be easier to chomp players walking towards you and nearly impossible to hit those walking away.
A demo would be useful, collision detection bugs are a pain to test.

Quote
16) Hitting an alien once gives full creds if it dies in rets?

This somewhat annoys me too but it's a balance issue so Norf is the guy to ask. The obvious counter is that it's kind of lame to have aliens charging mindlessly into the enemy base and dying as quickly as possible just to deprive us of cash.

Quote
17) You still don't have a proper rotation. I can provide 1 that works on 1.1, so if rotation code hasn't changed you only need to add/change map names.
As tuple said, need to know what "proper" is here.

Quote
18) Slope jumping makes moving around maps too easy.
Matter of opinion I guess; I like it. Encourages some creativity and intelligence in the way you use your surroundings.

Quote
19) Dead buildables deconnable makes RC (or any other buildable) rebuild too quick.
Don't know what this means.
benmachine

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 08:10:03 pm »
Rotation: Some maps are just not properly playable with 20+ players (some even at 10+, like atcs & nano), and others are only playable with 20+, so the rotation should be split for different player counts. (I play mostly on EU, haven't noticed proc/metro/orion there yet) Orion is actually a small-mid sized map.
11) Well you are right about this 1 lol.
14) The problem with new FoV is having a 5:4 screen. The horizontal FoV matters a lot more, so why have that vary instead of vertical? Another problem is having had to get used to sniping and strafejumping again. I used to love sniping others in 1.1, now I just can't hit them...
18) Most if not all of what is shown in Who's topic was possible in 1.1, and actually took some effort. Also some maps are seriously affected by this, as they were not designed with slope jumping in mind.
19) If RC is about to blow up, you can decon and instantly rebuild, avoiding the powerful explosion, and the wait time before it blows up.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 08:25:12 pm by UniqPhoeniX »

tuple

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 09:07:44 pm »
I made the maprotation.cfg file on us1.  Its pretty basic, >20 rotation2, <20 rotation1 (20 is the gray area ;) )

My goal was to keep the map rotation as close to whats there as is possible since I have no idea how the balance stats are valued on a per map basis and frankly, I was hopeful that it would get put onto the server.  I did want some larger maps when there are lots of people and looked at the maps already on the server as that would be more likely to be acceptable :)

My highly scientific method for putting maps into rotation2 (the large player rotation) was to remember which maps are larger and to look at stats.tremulous.net to guestimate which are more balanced.   UniqPhoeniX had mentioned it on the server (as had others at times) and I'd thought about it myself and frankly, nano with 24 people always seems to end in chainsuit hell ;)

I have a 3 level maprotation on mapmadness but frankly there just aren't enough small maps on us1 to make a separate rotation for 6-12 players and TBO I cut my teeth on small servers with the standard rotation so I don't mind even transit in a 3 on 3.

Personally, my ultimate goal is to get accepted a maprotation.cfg file that has a standard rotation, and a few additional rotations with some of the things you can do in maprotation.cfg to act as a document of sorts for what can be done and as a way that someone can make a simple change to server.cfg to use a more complex maprotation that includes some basic logic.

FWIW, here is the maprotation.cfg I made, with help :)

_Equilibrium_

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 11:50:49 pm »

tuple

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 12:34:46 am »
Fuck?!
Don't just say Fuck without qualifying it!
What the fuck?!

 Seriously though, what's wrong with procyon in large games?  Do you just hate it or is there some fatal flaw in it? :)

_Equilibrium_

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2010, 01:03:37 am »
Personally, I think 20 is too small. I still like atcs and nano with somewhat larger games. Perhaps 24-26 players is better. I also don't like procyon unless there's at least 12 players on each team, preferably 15. It's just so goddamn big.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 02:35:10 am »
24-26 on atcs/nano? :o that will just end with 1 single constant rush.

_Equilibrium_

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 04:03:17 am »
24-26 on atcs/nano? :o that will just end with 1 single constant rush.
If a team manages to get scrounge up enough teamwork to do so, so be it.

Paradox

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 07:27:22 am »
24-26 on atcs/nano? :o that will just end with 1 single constant rush.

Worked fine on sst...
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F50

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2010, 07:45:51 pm »
24-26 on atcs/nano? :o that will just end with 1 single constant rush.

So be it. Rushes are fun, are they not?
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Plague Bringer

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 08:46:12 pm »
24-26 on atcs/nano? :o that will just end with 1 single constant rush.

Worked fine on sst...
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Saliva

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2010, 09:18:41 pm »
While the map rotation change to larger maps based on player count seems logical it won't work as intended I'm afraid.

The problem with larger maps is that aliens have big advantage because of the distance between human and alien base. It means that fights are smaller scale and less players fighting at the same time favors aliens. Also egg spam means that humans can't win without coordination because it's impossible to find all the eggs before they are rebuilt even with the build point queue slowing building. Basically the large maps are still too large for high player counts. Procyon for example would require something like 50 players to be playable.  

David

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2010, 09:22:48 pm »
* David wants to see how the new repeaters impact that.

They *should* make a big difference.  No idea if they will though.
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Conzul

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2010, 11:43:46 pm »
I like all of your citations, except this one.

9) Lucijump takes twice the hp it did in 1.1

Why are you saying this is bad or a bug?
This was balanced just in time!

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2010, 11:57:04 pm »
You are totally wrong about Procyon requiring 50 to stop eggspam, I've hunted down aliens in 1.1 with 5 humans, sometimes less (that on a high bp server, no queued bps).
...Also egg spam means that humans can't win without coordination because it's impossible to find all the eggs before they are rebuilt even with the build point queue slowing building...
Humans are not SUPPOSED to win without coordination IMO. I really hope devs agree with that...

And if those maps are too big in your opinion, larger player counts should still have larger maps, just not that large. Ofc humans can always move to middle of map and halve the distance to alien base.

If you really manage to squeeze 20 humans into Procyon and still let grangers get past you, then PLEASE turn on your monitor. 4 (maybe even 3) humans can in theory go through Procyon/Transit without aliens having any paths around them at any time, so in practice if you can't do it with 8 you suck very very badly. Also consider that just a little big of luck can mean your mates find every egg very quickly, aliens don't know which paths you take, and which are safe to spread from. Even ancient remains is easy to hunt for eggs on (once you know the map ofc). And those 3 are the biggest popular maps.

The problems you have with big maps are probably not knowing the map, playing with total noobs, or a total lack of coordination. In 1.2 coordination is not even required, just look at your team overlay. + you get repeaters, have 2 teammates set up 2 rets at some paths and grangers won't get through there alive.


About lucijump: with ~40 hp loss it is no longer feasible to use.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 12:00:24 am by UniqPhoeniX »

_Equilibrium_

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2010, 12:17:12 am »
50 for procyon my be pushing it, but it still need quite a few people for it to work properly. Yes, the repeaters should make it somewhat viable, but it also makes them necessary.

If you really manage to squeeze 20 humans into Procyon and still let grangers get past you, then PLEASE turn on your monitor. 4 (maybe even 3) humans can in theory go through Procyon without aliens having any paths around them at any time, so in practice if you can't do it with 8 you suck very very badly.

So you want a team of 4 to spread out through procyon evenly, and expect them to take down any alien threat by themselves? And there are quite a few eggspam places that actually require a jetpack. This plan doesn't even work in theory, much less in-game, unless the skill level on the human team far outweighs the aliens'. And eggspam is not my primary concern in the map, it's that aliens can just bleed down the humans to very little or no life by the time they reach the alien base, or even a very skilled player who did not get hurt would have very little ammo left.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2010, 12:56:04 am »
Actually it is possible, the humans just have to take the right paths, not spread out evenly.
This is assuming no granger nor egg will survive if humans spot them!
If they start from Ventilation Room (human default): 2 go out the closer door, split at the door just outside with 1 going to Main Hall Teleporter and waiting, the other going through Cathedral and waiting at Nexus East. 2 go out the other human base door, 1 waits at the door leading to Main Corridor while the other clears the large room with statue, then they both go to Main Corridor teleporter (that takes to Nexus Starchart), 1 camps there, the other goes through waterway to stairs and camps there. Then the player that waited at the Main Hall Teleporter goes through tele, through Stairs Room, through Pump Station (alien base), to the Service Tunnel upper entrance. Then the 1 camping in stairs comes through Service tunnel, and they both wait at Nexus North.

This way the aliens never get a chance to go around humans!
At this point there is only Nexus area and Generators left, which should be pretty easy (if you got any brains). Of course in reality the aliens could all granger rush 1 human and hope someone gets past or just plain kill him, then spread, so 8 humans should do just fine (the ones that camp at teles at some point can set up a repeater+tesla+medi).
Now THAT is coordination. Ofc it will never happen outside a scrim with very good clans, but seriously, how hard is it with even 10 newbs and 3 pros?

I'm quite sure Transit is possible with 3 groups only. Similar tactics are possible on pretty much every map, even mega-procyon, tho it requires 5 groups or 4 and an outpost.

EDIT: I think I need to clarify this a bit, or there will be some silly replies. These maps are not really as big as you think, and you won't have to use tactics like this to stop eggspam. Have you ever had to on Niveus? Niveus has A LOT MORE paths and more places to hide an egg. The distances are a little bigger, but the areas are more open and there are less paths. It takes only 10-20 sec to get from human base to nexus, depending on which path you take. The times on Niveus are easily comparable to this.
...And eggspam is not my primary concern in the map, it's that aliens can just bleed down the humans to very little or no life by the time they reach the alien base, or even a very skilled player who did not get hurt would have very little ammo left.
Paths on Karith are comparable in length, except there are only 3 paths and thus a higher chance of meeting an alien on the way.
I am tired of playing the same exact game over and over (and over and over) on the same small map, where teams rarely get the chance to move base. Also some different starting layouts wouldn't hurt.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 01:46:29 am by UniqPhoeniX »

_Equilibrium_

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2010, 05:59:54 am »
The aliens can use more than just granger you know. Why would they granger rush one human to get past him, when they could easily just kill him with a dretch to clear the path? Also, there is no place on niveus that a naked human can't shoot at. Procyon has quite a few.

Saliva

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2010, 03:15:55 pm »
You are totally wrong about Procyon requiring 50 to stop eggspam, I've hunted down aliens in 1.1 with 5 humans, sometimes less (that on a high bp server, no queued bps).

Perhaps you are able to achieve such a deed with good teammates and teamwork. In public games both of those things exist in small quantities only if at all, so its pointless to boast how well you did in a good team. Procyon is a massive map so 25 humans may not even be enough when you take into account how an average player plays.

Humans are not SUPPOSED to win without coordination IMO. I really hope devs agree with that...

I think its unreasonable to expect coordination from humans if you don't expect the same from aliens. Especially when most public players aren't even capable of communication so coordination attempts are almost always futile.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2010, 05:14:31 pm »
Yep, silly replies. I know aliens can use more then granger (and I said that). If it really is an egghunt, many of them will be in spawn queue, and OM will be down most of the time. So there won't be many big aliens. AFAIK Procyon has 1 place (Nexus Top) where a naked human can't shoot to (OM probably doesn't fit there safely). And I think I know that map pretty well.

Saliva: That was in a public game, didn't use any tactics, just ran through the map. As I said, you don't have to use such tactics any more then you've had to on Niveus. This was just to show what I meant with:
Quote
4 (maybe even 3) humans can in theory go through Procyon/Transit without aliens having any paths around them at any time, so in practice if you can't do it with 8 you suck very very badly.
Even if the aliens get past 1 group, you can just do the same thing backwards, it should take about 1 minute to go through the WHOLE map.
If you can catch all grangers on Niveus, it would probably be easier on Procyon. And as I said, in 1.2 you got team overlay, so you can always see where your mates are, and know where you probably don't have to look, even with no communication.
How many times have either of you actually played Procyon in 1.2?

F50

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2010, 05:35:20 pm »
I would really prefer not to play maps as big as Procyon and Ancient Remains, at all if possible. It is nice when you fight your way to the enemy base, and not just at its entrances. UTCS (smallest map I know of) is quite good with 20-25 players in that respect. Perhaps a bit human-biased with that many, but I usually play aliens on that map.
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UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2010, 06:53:35 pm »
Wait, what? You are having trouble reaching enemy base on UTCS with 20-25 players? On UTCS you are basically all the time in front of your own base or in front of enemy base.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 06:56:23 pm by UniqPhoeniX »

_Equilibrium_

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2010, 07:31:06 pm »
AFAIK Procyon has 1 place (Nexus Top) where a naked human can't shoot to (OM probably doesn't fit there safely). And I think I know that map pretty well.
I'd say those indentations in the stairs around the upper nexus would be quite hard to get to if you don't know the map well, but besides that, you're right.

Also, not everyone knows the map very well. And depending on where the aliens build, it could make it very hard for anyone who doesn't know the map to do much more than run around and try an find random aliens who are just as lost as they are. Even with the alien default base, I am always very reluctant to take the quick teleporter way and I have going through and getting immediately pounced by goons or getting caught by a basi, so I often take the long way which leads to the aforementioned alien health/ammo bleed problem. The map works fine with larger numbers I suppose, but just I don't see how 4 people on each team would be anything more than a nuisance. If your base is attacked, it is quite possible that no one on your team could make it back before your entire base is gone.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2010, 07:44:17 pm »
Well if your base goes down in 15 sec... The excuse that noone knows the map is pointless, ofc they don't know the map if they never get to play it. At some point almost noone knew Niveus/Nexus6 either. Also I didn't say it should be played with 4 per team, just that eggspam ain't a problem.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 08:11:36 pm by UniqPhoeniX »

F50

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2010, 09:57:35 pm »
Wait, what? You are having trouble reaching enemy base on UTCS with 20-25 players? On UTCS you are basically all the time in front of your own base or in front of enemy base.

Hmmm...I didn't say that very well. What I mean to say is that the entire map is used for combat, and there is combat nearby wherever you go, rather than only having large conflicts in a small portion of the map next to the bases.
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UniqPhoeniX

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2010, 10:06:45 pm »
But on UTCS the whole map is next to the base :( IMO the larger the map the more of the fights happen away from bases... Tho yes, there are less fights per area.

Asvarox

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Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2010, 09:23:19 am »
I have played plenty of games in Procyon, never considered eggspam as a problem. Thanks for enlightening me.
I MINE FULL WEREWOLFES
NOT SUCH HIPPIE THINGS  >:(

Liskey

  • Posts: 112
  • Turrets: +7/-4
Re: More 1.2 feedback
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2010, 01:22:20 am »
28) While RC is down, BP count shows something like 80-100 BP even in a fully built base