A parting word

[Manbearpig@SRM]

Hi! 

I'm sorry for not getting to the previous topic earlier, i'm about 6 days away from deploying in support of enduring/iraqi freedom.  I'm in the USAF, and spend a lot of time in europe/middle east/asia flying crap and people around.  That means that, while i now own Xserver, i do it with a lot of help from the community.  I started a new thread since the other one was locked, and i felt that it was important that i come in here and say a few things. (nothing bad )

I think my single biggest regret that our 2 communities cant get along.  I read threads like these and, despite looking carefully, i cant seem to "get" where some of the animosity is coming from.  I feel like all i (and previously spec) have done was host a server we think people would enjoy playing on.  I take a lot of pleasure in people playing on our servers, and the popularity we have enjoyed over the past few years. 

The goal that i have, and i try to press on our devs/admins is that X should be as enjoyable as possible.  X has evolved a lot over the years, we have been constantly changing things, adding new stuff, and tweaking gameplay based off player feedback and suggestions.  We have had literally over a thousand dollars donated over the last year and a half for server hosting, we have an awesome dev team, and a great admin staff.  I couldnt be more proud of what we have accomplished, and more thankful for all the people who have donated time and money to make X what it is today.

I feel like there is a certain attitude that X and everyone else are fighting over a piece of the playerbase "pie".  I dont like that assessment, or that sentiment.  While i think there is some truth to it since we seem to have a limited playerbase, i think its a pretty poisonous attitude.  Its not our intention to "steal" players from anyone, or "ruin" anything. Like i said before, all we do is host a server people like to play on.  It makes me sad to see people upset and arguing like this, that has never been my intent. 

Ideally, i would love to see collaboration between all of the tremulous servers/communities.  I think its definitely in the best interest of Tremulous to promote itself as a whole, instead of only certain parts of it.  We are a diverse community with diverse interests and tastes based around an open-source game.  Over the years lots of different mods have emerged from the creativity of the players here.  Instead of embracing these changes, i've seen some isolationist and a purist attitudes emerge.  This has served to stifle potentially beneficial changes and developments that could make tremulous a better game than it is.  It has also put servers like ours, and other like minded communities/individuals outside the "wire" in our own forums and servers. 

I feel like Tremulous could be a lot better than it is.  But as always, people differ on how to make it happen.  This doesnt have to be a bad thing, and it doesnt have to be a question of modded VS unmodded.  People always have different tastes, and to expect people to like and play only a certain version or flavor of tremulous is just asking for trouble.  There is one thing that is undisputable, people like our server.  Why not use that to the advantage of the community as a whole?  If people like us, why not promote us along with the vanilla servers people like too?  I mean, there are some serious possibilities here and realistically its just opinion that stands in the way.  There are lots of people in both of our communities that have the best interests of Tremulous in mind, but we are all so divisive that everyone ends up spending their time and effort on their own agendas. 

Like i said earlier, opinions are hard things to change.  I dont really have any expectations, just ideas. I think there is a mindset in both of our communities that is deeply ingrained.  Maybe all thats possible is for us to peacefully coexist.  I know people have certain criticisms of how we run our servers, thats all fine and dandy.  But i dont see anything productive coming from arguing about it all.  I think all it is doing is driving a bigger wedge in between 2 different portions of an ever-shrinking playerbase which isnt good for anybody.

I guess thats all i had to say, i realize that the previous topic was started by one of our own.  While i can't fault him for asking the question, i can fault him for not going about it more diplomatically.  Not yelling at you lucifer,   i really appreciate the intent, and your contributions.  Just be nicer  

Thanks for reading, if anyone has any specific questions for me feel free to PM me, post here, or post on our forums.. whatever you like.  Just be quick about it, im jumpin on a jet to the desert pretty soon, im not sure how good the internet is in Saudi Arabia. 



Best Regards,



Manbearpig@SRM (Dan, L) A1C, USAF

[lucifer666s8n]

I wish I had been able to articulate this as well as you did... I have had the same thoughts but just got all riled up for some odd reason....

Thanks MBP... Sorry if I embarrassed you or anyone else, and I apologize to anyone on Trem.net that I have offended... Ill behave better...

Well, as good as someone as Evil as I am can be...

[ghostshell]

Coming from a server owner to another, let me tell you that I completely understand your frustration. Most veteran players know that DS (Dretch*Storm, my server) itself has been a modded server since day 1. Although I limited myself to modding the server and not the client, I tend to change what I dislike from stock Trem and add things to make the gameplay on my server standout a bit. For example Rampage, teamstats, damage messages, dynamic BP, Tyrant poop, and many other fantastic modded features were standard in DS long before patches were made. Those things caused stir with Trem purists. So believe me when I say that I know your frustration.

But if you take a step back and look at the big picture you can realize something. They are right.

All those changes I made, albeit to make my server funnier for my users, separate my users from the true Tremulous community. Can you honestly say with a straight face that your server is Tremulous? No, you cant because it isnt. Your server has a Tremulous-like game but it's something else (and more). And it's your responsibility as server owner to let your users know. If you truly care about your users (and Tremulous) you will make an effort to let them know that the game that they are playing is not Tremulous. A simple "modded" or message in MOTD would be a start. eg., I used a page in !info for DS.

You dont think it matters? Consider a brand new user that just found out about Tremulous through a FOSS gaming promotion website [plug] like http://gameboom.net - join us today! [/plug] They will want to join a game quickly to try the game (salivating). Your server being so popular is a likely choice. But in their naive and unexperienced mind, to them your server IS TREMULOUS. I agree that stock Tremulous is not flashy and the game "balance" is an illusion but *that* is the game. You're robbing newbies from experiencing the real cool features of Trem:

• Base building with 100 BP <- a rite of passage for any real builder
• Camping strategy - camping is part of the game no matter how much you hate it. the problem is that the Draw voting option was not in the stock game.
• Tyrant and goon dodging - it takes real skill to dodge tyrant swipes and goon bites (in 1.1) with normal human speed. You learn to anticipate the move of the aliens. That takes practice to learn.
• I could go on and on... put plainly put, your users don't know how to play Tremulous.

You say you have good dev and artists. So where are the new Tremulous player and weapon models? We could really use some. Some new sound effects would be nice too. That is how you can help the Tremulous community, not just your server. I think you're not the only one that wishes Tremulous 1.2 would materialize 2 years ago. But at the end of the day, this is a game supported by the community and it is only as good as its community. Your server wouldn't be around without the open invitation from the Tremulous community. We are here because we all love the same game.
 
So do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop thinking about your server. Think of the big picture, help the game and be part of the whole. Forget the donations, stats, blah blah blah, been there done that. You dont need to spoil your fun or that of your users. Just be a bit more respectful and considerate to the community and the game that provided all that fun to you. You wouldn't be around without us.

Just my $0.02 from one server owner to another.

[Manbearpig@SRM]

Thanks for the reply ghostshell.  I really appreciate it.

All those changes I made, albeit to make my server funnier for my users, separate my users from the true Tremulous community. Can you honestly say with a straight face that your server is Tremulous? No, you cant because it isnt. Your server has a Tremulous-like game but it's something else (and more). And it's your responsibility as server owner to let your users know. If you truly care about your users (and Tremulous) you will make an effort to let them know that the game that they are playing is not Tremulous. A simple "modded" or message in MOTD would be a start. eg., I used a page in !info for DS.

You dont think it matters? Consider a brand new user that just found out about Tremulous through a FOSS gaming promotion website  like http://gameboom.net - join us today! They will want to join a game quickly to try the game (salivating). Your server being so popular is a likely choice. But in their naive and unexperienced mind, to them your server IS TREMULOUS. I agree that stock Tremulous is not flashy and the game "balance" is an illusion but *that* is the game. You're robbing newbies from experiencing the real cool features of Trem:

I guess i disagree on the definition of what tremulous "is" and what the "true" tremulous community is.  I feel like the playerbase is the tremulous community. Because without them all the devs, models, definitions, ideas, promotions, moderators, server owners, and donations are meaningless.  The "playerbase" is the hordes of noobs and vets that actually play the game. From what i've seen, a significant portion of the people who play the game have nothing to do with trem.net/xserverx.com or any other forum.  To them, its like any other game.  They log in, join a server, point and shoot/claw.  When they are done, they exit the game and move on.   I think they make up the majority of the playerbase, not the card-carrying members of any particular forum.

So i guess thats where the disconnect is between what you are asking, and what i have observed.  It also seems like you are asking me to say that our servers are not "really tremulous"  And i guess i disagree with you there too.  I feel like what Tremulous "is" is an open source game, with the potential to be a great many things.  The gameplay aspect is not difficult to mod, and a team of people with a little expertise and some elbow grease can turn out a lot of new and exciting things. 

I really feel like the spirit of open source is to embrace change and innovation, because while some people might enjoy playing the same flavor of tremulous for 6 years, you cant expect tremulous to retain a large percentage of its players that way.  I think that servers like ours are a natural evolution of tremulous, and people should embrace the diversity and creativity that spawns projects like these.

I feel like its silly to try to put tremulous in a "box" and say everything in the box is the TRUE game, while everything outside it is not really tremulous.  Its all based off the same code, and after all wasnt tremulous based off a mod from Quake 3?  If someone hadnt made that mod, where would we be now? 

I also disagree about your player skill assessment.  I agree that people who play on X a lot will not be as good on other servers, our physics are different.  But how is that a bad thing?  I feel like the point of playing a video game is to have fun, and if people are having fun playing on our server then i think we are doing a good job.  I dont feel that skill is the end-all-be-all of video gaming.  Having fun is. 

You say you have good dev and artists. So where are the new Tremulous player and weapon models? We could really use some. Some new sound effects would be nice too. That is how you can help the Tremulous community, not just your server. I think you're not the only one that wishes Tremulous 1.2 would materialize 2 years ago. But at the end of the day, this is a game supported by the community and it is only as good as its community. Your server wouldn't be around without the open invitation from the Tremulous community. We are here because we all love the same game.

Totally agreed!  We do have two graphics mods that we host on our servers, and development server.  Lucifer is the guy who made the most recent one, but both are only changes to the textures instead of new models.  Newer models have not been a priority, and im not sure we have anyone willing to put in the time to do just that.  Everyone here has real life jobs and families and its tough to ask for something like that.  Especially with the quality expectations everyone would have, and all sorts of other nightmares involved with trying to do it all on our own.

Ultimately i think, like i said before, some people have put tremulous in a "box"  They expect it to look and feel the same way it always has, and 1.2 seems to be only a slight re-imagining.  I feel like there are so many things we can do creatively, but ultimately i dont feel like anyone is interested.  I think this is to the detriment of the community and game that tremulous could be. 

People here have a pretty clear idea of what they want tremulous to be like, i just feel like it doesnt include people and communities like X.  I think that's sad, but i will certainly respect people's wishes in that respect.  I guess what i want is people to understand my point of view on the subject, whether you agree with it or not. 
 

[SlackerLinux]

moderation is the key

servers like D*S hell any 1.1 server that is running latiku7qvm or based on it also has gameplay changing stuff added to it but the difference is how much has changed even D*S resembles Tremulous and users who play there has no issues going to a vanilla server(or latiku7qvm server since that considered more standard these days) other server qvms also put alot of effort into making the changes balance out with X and the other servers like X changes have more been for the "OMG IM SOO POWERFUL!!!111!!!" effect it might catch noobs attention that just wants to play to have fun and not have a challenge but for the player who wants to have a challenge too cant really have one there since although the changes attract people i doubt they are balanced and that might turn away these people from "Less Modified" servers where the game is more on tactics and teamwork(i haven't had many games to say for sure since its not really what i like) and i think that's the main reason why people dont really like it.

anyway there is nothing wrong with your server i dont like your servers because of the amount of change/balance(or lack of)/etc/etc but it seems to constantly have people on there so your doing something right. Trem is still alive because people are making changes on 1.1 to make it playable and because 1.2 is taking so long alot of servers have started to increase the gameplay with things like bouncing barbs(i love that 1), fueled jetpacks, tyrant poop, various hovel glitches being fixed,  cant pounce and chomp etc etc

[UniqPhoeniX]

X has evolved a lot over the years, we have been constantly changing things, adding new stuff, and tweaking gameplay based off player feedback and suggestions.

As I said somewhere before, just throwing stuff together doesn't make a good game, it makes a pile of rubble.

There is one thing that is undisputable, people like our server.

I dispute that one thing and challenge X to survive long term without the boxes in the name. You all seem so certain that those are not having a significant effect on drawing newbies to your server, so why not remove them? If you do, less complaints and then we can say that X is better then all those other servers with boxes at least in 1 way

It also seems like you are asking me to say that our servers are not "really tremulous"  And i guess i disagree with you there too.  I feel like what Tremulous "is" is an open source game, with the potential to be a great many things.  The gameplay aspect is not difficult to mod, and a team of people with a little expertise and some elbow grease can turn out a lot of new and exciting things. 

I really feel like the spirit of open source is to embrace change and innovation, because while some people might enjoy playing the same flavor of tremulous for 6 years, you cant expect tremulous to retain a large percentage of its players that way.  I think that servers like ours are a natural evolution of tremulous, and people should embrace the diversity and creativity that spawns projects like these.

I feel like its silly to try to put tremulous in a "box" and say everything in the box is the TRUE game, while everything outside it is not really tremulous.  Its all based off the same code, and after all wasnt tremulous based off a mod from Quake 3?  If someone hadnt made that mod, where would we be now?

X gameplay is about as much Tremulous as Tremulous gameplay is Q3. There are no similarities other then class names/models, alien team vs human team. I think X is more like a random mutation then natural evolution, and will hit a dead end as soon as it no longer gets a steady supply of newbies. You do understand that while Trem is based on Q3 engine, it is not called Quake 3? And then you say that cuz X is based on Tremulous it has to be Tremulous?

I also disagree about your player skill assessment.  I agree that people who play on X a lot will not be as good on other servers, our physics are different.  But how is that a bad thing?  I feel like the point of playing a video game is to have fun, and if people are having fun playing on our server then i think we are doing a good job.  I dont feel that skill is the end-all-be-all of video gaming.  Having fun is.

The problem is that the way X is operated is causing problems on other servers in the form on total noobs who don't understand why granger/blaster are not the best weapons nor how to actually build. If you want to mod, please don't changeinvert the roles of weapons/classes by that much. Also, different people have a different definition of 'having fun', and I think the 'fun' part of X will wear off quickly when players notice there is nothing to learn, no challenge to overcome.


SlackerLinux:,,...,.,,,.,,<- I think you dropped those. Here: ...........................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, have some for your next posts too. Seriously, some of your posts are getting really difficult to read (compared to properly formatted text).

[F50]

Firstly, I agree with Ghostshell completely. Except perhaps:

So do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop thinking about your server.

Personally, I think it's clear you've made your own community, and I would like to see you continue to promote that. I would also like you to think about tremulous.net, but that's secondary. I might be nitpicking here though.

I guess i disagree on the definition of what tremulous "is" and what the "true" tremulous community is.  I feel like the playerbase is the tremulous community. The "playerbase" is the hordes of noobs and vets that actually play the game.

It also seems like you are asking me to say that our servers are not "really tremulous"  And i guess i disagree with you there too.  I feel like what Tremulous "is" is an open source game, with the potential to be a great many things.

I feel like its silly to try to put tremulous in a "box" and say everything in the box is the TRUE game, while everything outside it is not really tremulous.  Its all based off the same code, and after all wasn't tremulous based off a mod from Quake 3?  If someone hadn't made that mod, where would we be now? ...[people] expect it to look and feel the same way it always has, and 1.2 seems to be only a slight re-imagining.  I feel like there are so many things we can do creatively, but ultimately i don't feel like anyone is interested.  I think this is to the detriment of the community and game that tremulous could be.

Bear in mind that your own definition of "playerbase" begs the question of "what is the game?". "Tremulous" is a word, and all words are "boxes" in that sense. The question is not whether there is a box, but where the box ends. Does this "tremulous" box expand to the rest of Quake III? I do not believe so. Does the box of "Quake III" (or even Gloom) expand to tremulous? I do not believe so. In the same way (albeit to a lesser exent) I do not believe that the "tremulous" box expands to its radically different mod, X.

Why? Because the experience is different, radically so. Some skills transfer, but the game feels so drastically different. There are a number of feelings that the two games share. But taking down a dragoon with a shotgun in vanilla is not quite the same as doing so with a blaster on X. The grace of tremulous movement just doesn't exist on X. Basecracking is not at all the same. Sure, fun before skill. But skill is fun. I've been playing tremulous for more than a year and a half, and IMHO I'm only a decent player. Tremulous is just awesome that way.

Tremulous could be a lot of things, but tremulous is what it is. I would love to see a new, great game come out of tremulous, just as tremulous itself has come out of quake, but it wouldn't be tremulous as such.

PS: hmm, it seems uniqPheoeniX just said the same thing, but faster, and perhaps less accurately.

I read threads like these and, despite looking carefully, i cant seem to "get" where some of the animosity is coming from.

I really feel like the spirit of open source is to embrace change and innovation, because while some people might enjoy playing the same flavor of tremulous for 6 years, you can't expect tremulous to retain a large percentage of its players that way.  I think that servers like ours are a natural evolution of tremulous, and people should embrace the diversity and creativity that spawns projects like these.

This is mostly true. In many ways I believe X should be honored as a popular tremulous mod in its own right.

However: It is not a nice feeling to see a bastardization of something you enjoy. Idk if they have every right to make it, its still doesn't generate particularly happy thoughts. And it is far, far worse if you see people mistaking that bastardization for the original, and if it is cheating in some way to get newbies...I'll stop right here. This is a real sentiment. In fact, the (sole) developer of one of my other favorite games, ADOM, has contemplated open sourcing it more than once, and rejected it (so far) for this very reason. If there is animosity between our two groups this is where it lies I think. I am not going to go so far as to say this is the case between X and tremulous, but I am sure some people feel this is the case. Heck, some people feel this is the case with *share*, how much more then Rampage or X.

On the other hand I don't think I need to explain how having something you enjoy despised as an inferior bastardization does to your perception of the supposed idol of purity.

There are lots of people in both of our communities that have the best interests of Tremulous in mind, but we are all so divisive that everyone ends up spending their time and effort on their own agendas.

As you yourself said, "tremulous" is not to you what it is to me. My box is smaller. After spending some hours on X, I don't think it is horrible, but part of me does wish that those who can do so give up X for the gem that is vanilla Tremulous. My favorite flavor of ice cream has always been vanilla. Wait, I forgot about chocolate...But honestly, I think whatever does prove beneficial to both X and tremulous will be used by both. Thus, I fully expect X to move to 1.2 within a year or two of its release.

Like i said earlier, opinions are hard things to change.  I don't really have any expectations, just ideas. I think there is a mindset in both of our communities that is deeply ingrained.  Maybe all that's possible is for us to peacefully coexist.  I know people have certain criticisms of how we run our servers, that's all fine and dandy.  But i don't see anything productive coming from arguing about it all.  I think all it is doing is driving a bigger wedge in between 2 different portions of an ever-shrinking playerbase which isn't good for anybody.

Unfortunately, I believe that, because there are two different games, there are two different playerbases. This doesn't mean there isn't anyone who crosses boundaries, just like there are some (even if only one) people who play ADOM who also play Tremulous.

Nevertheless, I do hope the view that X is a valid mod of tremulous becomes prevalent, but tremulous gameplay I think it is not.

[lucifer666s8n]

I would also like you to think about tremulous.net,

I think we are, especially with MBP taking his valuable time to come on here with an open mind, after some things that have been said by people being not so diplomatic... (Myself included at times)

I do not believe that the "tremulous" box expands to its radically different mod, X.

Well, seeing as evryone has an opinion, this one is yours. Your staement though is in essence an oxy moron... Think about it... In one statement you are saying that Tremulous is not part of ITS mod.... Sorry but...duh..

In many ways I believe X should be honored as a popular tremulous mod in its own right.

So honestly which is it... X isnt Trem, or X is a Trem mod... Very important if we expect to quit arguing. We are trying to make the necessary changes to the server (motd screen and other balance changes) to make Trem.net not be so vile towards us...

but part of me does wish that those who can do so give up X for the gem that is vanilla Tremulous.

You know I said that was what you guys wanted in my thread... Hmm... lol  I digress... Being nice 

As I said somewhere before, just throwing stuff together doesn't make a good game, it makes a pile of rubble.

I will leave that alone... Baiting the hook, I wont bite....

I dispute that one thing and challenge X to survive long term without the boxes in the name. You all seem so certain that those are not having a significant effect on drawing newbies to your server, so why not remove them? If you do, less complaints and then we can say that X is better then all those other servers with boxes at least in 1 way

Do you read these threads and our answers? How many times will MBP and Dulci (Dulcimer Cannon for you non XserverX regs) have to say we are working on making things less hated at X... UGH

Im not attacking anyone this time. Just observing. Mutual respect seems to be what Manbearpig is striving for, and that is all we want... (There might be some people on X who hate all of you...  I wouldnt know....) Things are changing at X... We are trying to make things better, and cause less strife between us and you... Turning it into someday, a "we"... Feel free to tear apart my comments, LOL, I wont yell and scream this time... It is pointless to do so...

[tuple]

Actually, I think that most of these types of discussions/disagreements will vanish if not fade significantly.  Why is that?  Autodownload.  Mods can make significant changes to tremulous and they will be much more easily and quickly downloaded.  For 1.1, the fact that the majority of players ran a udp download only client severely limited what a mod could realistically package.  I would be easier, especially for someone new or lazy ( like me ) to modify game.qvm so there's no download needed.  And its simple.  You can change it with just a server restart, quick and dirty

With the newest clients life is much different in that respect.  Things are now the way they are because the basic infrastructure was flawed and not very friendly to mods.  Not by design, it just didn't scale

Boxes.  Are we really still caring about them?  Not only are they gone in 1.2/gpp but the sort order that allowed them to be useful is not default.   Personally, I don't expect anyone to remove them.  Do I hate them?  Yes, doesn't everyone?  Is it worth continuing to argue about, years after they started?  I don't think so.

Here is what I see.  Developers arguing that the codebase is free and they are free to modify it (true) to gamers who see the game as the gameplay (which is also true).  Both sides are making valid statements.  I think that mods which advertise as tremulous dilute the brand, and cause gamers to wonder what tremulous is.  This can be very bad for the gamer side of the argument.  If I tell a bunch of friends to check out tremulous I can't be sure what they will be playing.  On the other hand, brand identification can work to the benefit of mod developers if they would use it (and the mod is good )  The technical problems in 1.1 discourage mods from going that far, but a name can do a lot to make a groups work stand out.

I'm just not sure how much I care to argue about 1.1 flaws and how people work around them.

[F50]

In many ways I believe X should be honored as a popular tremulous mod in its own right.

So honestly which is it... X isnt Trem, or X is a Trem mod... Very important if we expect to quit arguing. We are trying to make the necessary changes to the server (motd screen and other balance changes) to make Trem.net not be so vile towards us...

To clarify, I mean to say just that. X isn't Tremulous, its a mod of Tremulous (and hence Tremulous' mod). Tremulous isn't Quake, its a mod of Quake (Quake's mod).

Also, different people have a different definition of 'having fun', and I think the 'fun' part of X will wear off quickly when players notice there is nothing to learn, no challenge to overcome.

You haven't played X enough. The challenges of X are many, like that of vanilla tremulous. They are just different challenges. Less to learn, perhaps, but I'm not even sure about that.

[lucifer666s8n]

You haven't played X enough. The challenges of X are many, like that of vanilla tremulous. They are just different challenges. Less to learn, perhaps, but I'm not even sure about that.

You got that right F50 

To clarify, I mean to say just that. X isn't Tremulous, its a mod of Tremulous (and hence Tremulous' mod). Tremulous isn't Quake, its a mod of Quake (Quake's mod).

What if I start calling X, Tremulous VX? After all there is something out there called tremX... It seems like a waste of disc space, but it is a thought....

[A Spork]

Not sure how you think a name change will help....but what f50 is saying is that x is so different it probably shouldn't be called tremulous.

[kevlarman]

You haven't played X enough. The challenges of X are many, like that of vanilla tremulous. They are just different challenges. Less to learn, perhaps, but I'm not even sure about that.

You got that right F50 

To clarify, I mean to say just that. X isn't Tremulous, its a mod of Tremulous (and hence Tremulous' mod). Tremulous isn't Quake, its a mod of Quake (Quake's mod).

What if I start calling X, Tremulous VX? After all there is something out there called tremX... It seems like a waste of disc space, but it is a thought....

tremx is very obviously a mod, no one would ever mistake it for stock tremulous. the same isn't true of X to newbies playing for the first time (and yes, i've talked to newbies who joined X because it was populated and at the top of the list, decided that it was representative of tremulous and uninstalled). and when i said someone else can start a topic, i didn't mean that you could derail it afterwards.

[Manbearpig@SRM]

tremx is very obviously a mod, no one would ever mistake it for stock tremulous. the same isn't true of X to newbies playing for the first time.). and when i said someone else can start a topic, i didn't mean that you could derail it afterwards.

So what you are saying, is that if we make the MOTD say "This is a modded server, visit www.xserverx.com/forums for details"  That would make people happy(ier)?  While i'm not sure why this is such a sticking point with people, if that resolves some of the animosity i would be happy to do it.  X has never intentionally "pretended" to be anything it isnt, we have never lied about what we are hosting, and have a FAQ on our homepage that explains most of the gameplay differences between us and Vanilla servers.

http://xserverx.com/faq/

Welcome to the Tremulous server known as X. This guide is geared towards helping new players to X understand the crazy gameplay rules and seasoned players keep track of the changes. The author will try to keep this document up to date as the server operators bring changes to the server by keeping track of the changes in tremulous.h. The latest version of this document is available on http://xserverx.com/faq If you needfurther help, ask in the forums.

The X QVM is based on p-g-qvm and has been modified to give a “hate it or love it” gameplay.

The Current MOTD gives the website link, and !info has always listed the most recent QVM balance changes, as well as some relevant news.  While im not sure how changing the MOTD to say "we are a modded server" will make the fact that we are a modded server any more conspicuous.  Anyone who may have been confused simply didnt bother to look or ask.  

(and yes, i've talked to newbies who joined X because it was populated and at the top of the list, decided that it was representative of tremulous and uninstalled

And for every person you have a story about quitting tremulous because they didnt like X, i can show you a person who didnt like tremulous until they joined X.  Different people have different tastes, and like i stated before i believe diversity is the key to making tremulous more inclusive and more popular.  I believe giving everyone the same "standard" experience is limiting, stifles creativity, and ultimately does not cater to everyone.  

I think a great example of a creative mod forever changing gameplay for the better is Gary's Mod for HL2.  If you look at the incredible impact it had on HL2, you can see that by using and embracing this mod that HL2 has evolved into something as incredibly complex, nuanced, and diverse as the creativity of the users itself.  It was such an effective tool of creativity-rewarding, experience enhancing, and limitless potential that it is now hosted by steam for download and hailed by industry experts across the board.  Its simply incredible some of the stuff people have come up with using the mod.

I feel like the opposite forces are at work in this community.  Instead of embracing what tremulous could be, some people are locked in the past playing the same game over and over and reacting very negatively to change.  People are certainly entitled to playing whatever kind of game they want, the servers we host are there FOR them, and BECAUSE of them.  I have no problem with people who prefer vanilla. But, it doesnt have to be a question of whether tremulous should be modded or should be stock/standard.

 I feel like it should be a question of what people are interested in.  A question of what exactly is attractive to people, what has been successful, what has managed to work.  You cant deny that X has a large playerbase.  We have been #1 in server ranking since december of '09, and have been in the top 4-5 for at least a year.  This isnt some "fad" We consistently see people come to the server, and stay.  People genuinely like the server.  We provide a quality server with gameplay people like that is low-latency and staffed as much as possible with admins. (ofc we have had terrible admins, but we fix it when we see it)

I dont believe that there are more than a small handful of servers that can claim that they have consistently had an average of 21-24 players on their server 24/7.  While people may disagree on the reasons why this is happening (boxes, being the primary thing.  Note: AA is listed higher than us, yet has less players as well as there being multiple empty servers listed higher as well)  I truly believe that people come to our server, donate to our hosting expenses, program for us, and administrate on the server because they like it.  And that is something i think people need to come to terms with.  You may dislike us, you may hate us, you may think our servers are unholy crap... but people like it.  And i think its in the best interest of the community to promote things that people like... vanilla as well as modded servers like us and UBP etc.  

[ghostshell]

Firstly, I agree with Ghostshell completely. Except perhaps:

So do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop thinking about your server.

Personally, I think it's clear you've made your own community, and I would like to see you continue to promote that. I would also like you to think about tremulous.net, but that's secondary. I might be nitpicking here though.

I have built a community with the help of many many people. Our community goal (gameboom.net not trem) is to promote Free Gaming, which Tremulous itself is part of that community. We want FOSS games to be known and succeed. But at the beginning I thought just like MBP and concentrated of making MY SERVER the center of MY COMMUNITY. In retrospect I understand that was a selfish and short-lived strategy for open gaming in general.

The GameBoom community rallied two years ago to change the way we do things, many fleas jumped off but the truly committed hanged on and we are starting to make a difference. But this is not the GameBoom forum so I will stop now

The point is... the Tremulous community is not the devs, the servers or the even the players. The Tremulous community is all of those groups, bound together by their common interest and love for this game. None of us would be discussing this right now if it werent for the game. Long ago some cool dudes got together to make something new and fun (whatever possessed them is unimportant), and they called their creation Tremulous. Then they invited anyone and everyone to try it out and help improve it. When that happened the game took a life of its own, and now it's ours to care and protect.

Many people wonder why isn't 1.2 out by now - It's our own fault that it isnt. All the in-fighting and selfishness consumes people's time and energy. Who would want to stick around for that? Would new devs/artists join ? You can cut the animosity here with a butter knife. So many cliques, no openness, little organization. All of these are community issues, not development issues. We should be focusing on making this community grow, not just with players but also people that can contribute to the game itself. Documentation editors, artists, animators, map designers, sound and video editors, writers (a real and official Tremulous background story would be great!). Drop the whole X, AA, DS, MG, blah blah blah whatever... Tremulous is what matters.

And devs, project admins (whomever you are), users and prospect contributors dont care about reading SVN check-in logs, so please push stuff to a real activity stream. There are recent inventions like blogs, twitter/identi.ca that you can use for that purpose - even .plan updates would help FFS. People get worried and disappointed because they dont see regular updates and think development is not active. We all have real lives and we are busy, we understand. But if dev X who handles a core feature cant work on it because he has in-grown toe nails - TELL US - someone in the community might step up and cover. Right now we dont know who does what or when or how and this is the main source of frustration. A centralized location for documentation (wiki) under the *.tremulous.net domain would be excellent too. Put all your stuff in there, do a complete brain dump. From "how to make a tremulous player model" to "How to bind keys to say KUMBAYA in game". Dont have the resources to do this (network, storage, server) ? Here's where the ''official activity stream'' comes handy.

Anyway, I hope my reply didn't sound like a rant because it isnt. I truly love this game, I want it to grow, improve and continue. But it's starting to splinter and disintegrate. Maybe development and project management is too much to handle. Concentrate on a single task and let the community step up for the others. It's time to drop all the BS and work together, stop trying to control what you dont own.

Ok, now I'm ready for the flames and pitchforks please

[A Spork]

Ghost, that is so true it's not even funny.
We need to be a better community, work together , and stop hating so much.
Also totally agree with the need for better communication. An actual up-to-date, and far more jndepth look at what's going on, be it on Twitter or something else is a must.
@MBP: it is rather easy to think x is normal trem, and unfortunately, not that many noobs will go to a servers website just to see if it's modded or not. Changing the MOTD would definately help alot. You guys may not be trying to confuse people, but you don't seem to be that active in making it well known to them what vanilla trem is. And there certainly is an argument that could be made saying X isn't real tremulous, but I'm just gonna leave that be. I also don't get why you guys keep acting like this is a popularity contest. It's not. It'd likely be worth your while to pay attention to what ghost was said, as he runs a much less hated modded(although less so) server. You'd be surprised howuch of a difference little changes can make.

[lucifer666s8n]

and when i said someone else can start a topic, i didn't mean that you could derail it afterwards.

I didnt derail anything. I responded as politly and diplomaticaly as possible... You want me silent on this issue? I just got clarification about a couple of statements. I am not guilty of anything here. If I came accross that way I apologize.

We need to be a better community, work together , and stop hating so much.

That is all I want to happen. Work together to make Trem a better game/community for ALL of us... Animosity is not work while...

[Manbearpig@SRM]

I have built a community with the help of many many people. Our community goal (gameboom.net not trem) is to promote Free Gaming, which Tremulous itself is part of that community. We want FOSS games to be known and succeed. But at the beginning I thought just like MBP and concentrated of making MY SERVER the center of MY COMMUNITY. In retrospect I understand that was a selfish and short-lived strategy for open gaming in general.

To be fair, i've only recently taken over.  I feel like X's pariah status was established a long time ago.  I think a big part of why im taking the time to post how i feel, and things that i think can be improved, is because im not happy with the status quo.  Although ultimately i dont have any glamorous expectations of things changing immediately, i think maybe trying to set a more positive tone for dialog with the rest of the tremulous community is a big step forward.  I really do hope that in the future the tremulous community can collaborate on a much higher level than it is now about all sorts of different things.  I feel that if we remain divided into small communities with small ideas and agendas, ultimately the entire community suffers.  I want X to be a part of the larger dialog, not the subject of it.

Many people wonder why isn't 1.2 out by now - It's our own fault that it isnt. All the in-fighting and selfishness consumes people's time and energy. Who would want to stick around for that? Would new devs/artists join ? You can cut the animosity here with a butter knife. So many cliques, no openness, little organization. All of these are community issues, not development issues. We should be focusing on making this community grow, not just with players but also people that can contribute to the game itself. Documentation editors, artists, animators, map designers, sound and video editors, writers (a real and official Tremulous background story would be great!). Drop the whole X, AA, DS, MG, blah blah blah whatever... Tremulous is what matters.

Well put.  I totally agree with you here.  The community is bigger than any one faction or "flavor" of gameplay.  Like i've said before, the key to growing the community is in being inclusive, supportive, and accommodating.  

@MBP: it is rather easy to think x is normal trem, and unfortunately, not that many noobs will go to a servers website just to see if it's modded or not.

But the distinction you are making between "normal" and "X" tremulous is a part of the problem.  We are all here playing the same game fundamentally, our servers are just balanced differently.  Yes, its balanced VERY differently, but its still a matter of balance and the addition of new features.  The difference here isnt the difference between 2 different video games, its the difference between 2 different flavors of the SAME game.  Yes, there are completely different strategies, different ways to win, different ways to play, but its still Tremulous.  Just not "normal" tremulous. 

I think the argument you are trying to make that X isnt "really" tremulous is divisive.  Like i stated earlier, it serves to stick tremulous in a "box" that is exclusive, rather than inclusive.  I feel that it is fundamentally serving to stifle innovation and creativity.  People dont all like the same thing, and the reason i point to popularity is not to say "hey we are better" Its to say that we are relevant and deserve to be included, instead of reviled.


Thanks for everyone's replies so far   I really think we are getting into some good discussion points, hopefully we can all take something away from it.

[A Spork]

Well to not say x and vanilla trem are vastly different would just be ignorant.
They are different, x is a frakking mod, and saying they are fundamentaly the same is not very realistic.
The trick is not making that fact so divisive.
I haven't the slightest how to do that, as x is not like d*s where the gameplay is pretty close to vanilla trem, it's vastly different, which is it's strength, but also it's weakness.
The fact is, most people who play on x can't play anywhere else, and most vanilla players refuse to play x as they see it as a perversion.
I'm aware you're fairly new in the role as the boss man, and this isn't really your fault, but you guys can't blame this whole seperation problem on us. Your players are very isolated from the rest of the tremulous community. It would help immensily I'm sure if the rest of your community made an effort to be a part of the greater tremulous community.

[kevlarman]

But the distinction you are making between "normal" and "X" tremulous is a part of the problem.  We are all here playing the same game fundamentally, our servers are just balanced differently.  Yes, its balanced VERY differently, but its still a matter of balance and the addition of new features.  The difference here isnt the difference between 2 different video games, its the difference between 2 different flavors of the SAME game.  Yes, there are completely different strategies, different ways to win, different ways to play, but its still Tremulous.  Just not "normal" tremulous. 

i would argue that your lack of distinction is the problem. few people complained about tremx or domination or arcade mod  even though they had gameplay changes approaching the scale of X's, but they labeled themselves as mods instead of trying to say they are "normal tremulous".

I think the argument you are trying to make that X isnt "really" tremulous is divisive.  Like i stated earlier, it serves to stick tremulous in a "box" that is exclusive, rather than inclusive.  I feel that it is fundamentally serving to stifle innovation and creativity.  People dont all like the same thing, and the reason i point to popularity is not to say "hey we are better" Its to say that we are relevant and deserve to be included, instead of reviled.

i don't see how having a problem with a heavily modded server labeling itself as tremulous stifles innovation. people not all liking the same thing is more reason to distinguish mods so people who do like them can find them more easily and people who don't can find the mods they do like.

Well to not say x and vanilla trem are vastly different would just be ignorant.
They are different, x is a frakking mod, and saying they are fundamentaly the same is not very realistic.
The trick is not making that fact so divisive.
I haven't the slightest how to do that, as x is not like d*s where the gameplay is pretty close to vanilla trem, it's vastly different, which is it's strength, but also it's weakness.

the ability of the gpp client to sticky "featured servers" is specifically there for things like "mod of the week".

[Fallen-]

Hi all! Have I kicked your ass lately? (in trem of course)

Man, give me back my game, or I'm going to hunt u all down until there is no dev available on the planet. There will be no mercy I promise. It will be painful and slow.

Ya for real. This game is for the players. Having some variations doesn't hurt it at all, it makes it more interesting with its flavors. You can play wherever you feel like, no chains. Just free. Let them choose for themselves, where they feel comfy they will return.

The real problem is this 1.1-1.2 thing. Just hurry up because all the good players are leaving. Make a base game good enough to be vanilla, the master reference. Make all servers just build on top of what the players want. The game is what the players want from it or they leave.

EDIT: I think the gpp running is good, very good indeed. I like it a lot better now than on 1.1. More balanced, aliens are not overpowered and need to team play more. I have been playing only gpp since it came out, I just tested 2 more times 1.1 again and never went back to it.

[Liskey]

The fact is, most people who play on x can't play anywhere else, and most vanilla players refuse to play x as they see it as a perversion.

I never mistook X for vanilla, but I occasionally enjoyed heading over there for some pure mindless fun.  Variety is the spice of life - I wouldn't want to eat cinnamon as a main course, but I do like a little sprinkled on my french toast.

[commander scrooge]

I think what MBP is getting at is that we need to stop acting like children when it comes to modded and vanilla servers, and act like mature people do.   Both in-game and in-forum I have noticed that tremulous has a lack of co-operation (<<<--I SAID A BAD WORD[notice, has a lack of, not saying it is non existent]).  MPB is making an attempt at co-operation between vanilla and modded servers so we can put down our flamers and pitchforks bringing a more friendly environment to the new comers on both vanilla tremulous and modded tremulous.  You may hate modded servers, or you may hate vanilla, you  may even find your self fallen in the middle, but you must give the X tremulous community credit for taking a step out and attempting to bring co-operation between the split communities of tremulous.

[A Spork]

*cough*
Actually, the X community kinda started this latest Flamewar. Although MBP did come over here to explain his point, there are also some of us who went to your forums...

Anyways, I want mah Flamer, its soo good at roasting teh Dretchies!
==)))))) 

[commander scrooge]

Should I have underlined the "we"s in my last post? not saying any side in particular is to blame for the flaming and pitchforking.

[mooseberry]

If X server never existed, none of this would have happened. Clearly this is all their fault.

[Urcscumug]

Some thoughts that this thread has made me ponder:

1. Different people like different things.

People who don't play vanilla would not play it if it was forced upon them.

The fact they like wildly different mods means they don't like vanilla. You can't say "I wish they were playing vanilla" because it makes no sense. Who plays mods or games they don't like?

If you like vanilla, consider yourself lucky. But I think there's nobody out there who likes plain vanilla 100% and hasn't got at least a couple of small things they'd change. Some would (and have) changed more than others.

Where's the line? I think it's very blurry and wide.

2. Trem is extendable. Accept and embrace it.

Either it's extendable and it's natural to make use of that; or it's not, they make it non-extendable, hardcode vanilla and exclude everything else from the master server.

But I think if someone tried to force vanilla down everybody's throats what would follow would be fragmentation and death, and IMHO it would come far quicker to vanilla than to some of the mods. Let's not even talk about it.

I think Trem should treasure its ability to evolve in so many different ways. Diversification is the key to survival. Over-specialization means dead-ends. If Trem has the playerbase it has, it's because of all the mods and vanilla put together.

So I think people should be made more aware that Trem is extendable and each server different. Hint: put it on tremulous.net in big letters: "This is an open game with dozens of mods. Something for everybody, come see."

It's a big plus. We should take advantage of it. You just download the base client and you can play various different games. Isn't that cool?

3. Aimbots need love too.

You're probably ready to scream at me but sit and read through before that.

Yes, we should even embrace extreme mods, like the client hacks commonly known as aimbots. I think few people realise the wealth of positive potential such hacks carry. We squash aimbots where we find them and never consider the bigger picture.

(Whis is ironic. We punish aimbots because it's rude to attempt to impose your mod on someone else, yet some of us would think nothing of imposing vanilla over other mods.)

Are client hacks all bad?

Take their full information disclosure features (they "steal" info from the server and display all kinds of info about the team, the enemy etc.) But fog of war is a game feature like any other. Vanilla imposes a certain (big) amount of it. If a mod chooses to get rid of it, what's the problem? In chess you see all the oponent's pieces and how they move, yet it's still a great game.

Or take aimbots. The effort put into aimbots would find great use in the development of better bots for Trem. Just recently someone said to me that some of the features in one particular aimbot were so great they'd love to be able to put them into bots.

I think that if the client hack devs (and us) were smart, there would be a server out there that said "all client hacks welcome". There would be a server mod that disclosed full tactical info willingly instead of having the client steal it, and it would make a hell of a strategy mod.

Bottom line:

If something is open it is 100% open or it is not. You can't add artificial qualifiers. "Oh yeah it's open and it's supposed to be fully customizable BUT I don't like your mod." What is that?

Short of trying to shove mods down each others' throats, I think we should all be able to customize the shit out of Trem and still refer to each other as "the Trem community".

Maybe it's time for a 1.2 incremental step in our way of thinking too. Maybe it's time we take Trem to the next conceptual level, one that accepts the mods and makes them part of the picture.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Client side hacks give a player an unfair advantage and is considered cheating, and against the rules on most servers. If you think such mods are totally fine, then how about a bot that can play the whole game for you, much better then any real player. Low on evos/creds? Activate bot and see your evos/creds fill up in seconds! Enemy has a good base, and you have 0 skills against bases? No problem, activate bot and win in half a minute! What would Tremulous become then?
Most people want to play fair, not play a losing game against people who have huge advantages whenever they want. Ofc if the server allows it, it's fine. But 99% don't. So if you play on a server, it's by that server's rules. Or ban.
In chess all players see the enemy pieces, so fog of war is not part of the game; everyone is playing the same game, noone has any advantage over others. If in chess you could bend rules/cheat to get more pieces, the rules would obviously be changed to fix that. Or it would no longer be a game played/competed in by a worldwide community. With worldwide contests and real prizes. And legendary players. etc.

And no one is imposing vanilla on anybody, it's just that, as I've already said, the way X is/was operated has caused problems on other servers, and is splitting the community with hugely different gameplay. Each server being so different is not a good thing unless each can get and maintain a large community. Which even Tremulous as a whole can barely do. Splitting the current community will hinder the growth of the whole Tremulous, for example not sharing some code/models/maps between servers. Or when someone can/will no longer play on X servers, then where are they supposed to go? Start learning Tremulous all over again? X can be different, but there is no reason to be THAT much different.

This post got really long...

[your face]

If X server never existed, none of this would have happened. Clearly this is all their fault.

If Tremulous never had existed, X never would have existed.  Everyone would be happy.

Someone go back in time and assassinate Timbo.  Cactusfrog!!

[F50]

People who don't play vanilla would not play it if it was forced upon them.

The fact they like wildly different mods means they don't like vanilla. You can't say "I wish they were playing vanilla" because it makes no sense. Who plays mods or games they don't like?

Absolutely. The question is not "Is X a game?" but rather "Is X a flavour of our game?". As such one can honestly wish everyone was playing my game, a fruitless wish perhaps, but not an illogical one.

2. Trem is extendable. Accept and embrace it.

Either it's extendable and it's natural to make use of that; or it's not, they make it non-extendable, hardcode vanilla and exclude everything else from the master server.

Quake is extendable, we have embraced it. Are we Quake? No we are not quake. In this way, tremulous is extendable. We can even list things that are mods of tremulous (just like I'm sure we were on Quake's master server a long time ago), but are not precesely tremulous. This I accept, as long as each mod identifies itself. I may think a particular mod sucks, but I accept it...as a mod. This doesn't mean I have to like all mods.

And you certainly pose a false dychotomy here. In general, open source programs do not want forks, but open source software almost always gives that freedom.

3. Aimbots need love too.
Yes, we should even embrace extreme mods, like the client hacks commonly known as aimbots. I think few people realise the wealth of positive potential such hacks carry. We squash aimbots where we find them and never consider the bigger picture.

(Whis is ironic. We punish aimbots because it's rude to attempt to impose your mod on someone else, yet some of us would think nothing of imposing vanilla over other mods.)

...

I think that if the client hack devs (and us) were smart, there would be a server out there that said "all client hacks welcome". There would be a server mod that disclosed full tactical info willingly instead of having the client steal it, and it would make a hell of a strategy mod.

Absolutely. An excellent point indeed. I believe that an aimbot server would be a mod as valid as X (or KorX, or whatever), but I sure as heck wouldn't want that to become Tremulous' identity in the mind of anyone. I would probably go to that server to figure out how aimbotting worked, though. However, that server would be such a warping of Tremulous that even if I didn't think badly of the server itself, I would certainly hold no respect for its players. Of course, this is provided that server was clearly marked as an aimbot server.

Bottom line:

If something is open it is 100% open or it is not. You can't add artificial qualifiers. "Oh yeah it's open and it's supposed to be fully customizable BUT I don't like your mod." What is that?

Yes you most certainly have the abillity to despise something that is despisable, no matter whether it is a mod, or even vanillia. Perhaps I might agree with you if you say that those same artifical qualifiers must apply equally all mods, but I don't think you can say there are no standards except openness. I accept mods as mods, if they call themselves mods. I would like to hear what you think is wrong about that?