Kill Assists - Adv. Basilisk

[Conzul]

I believe that a Basi who gasses a human or group of humans should get a kill assist if other teammates kill them. After all the basi could have been swiping instead. Rather, it was in the line of fire, truly supporting its teammates by annoying the sox off the hummy raidparty. I help gass all the time. Then you get killed, and you don't have evo's because you didn't technically damage anyone. I could have been a dretch or goon.
   The point is, players may be more enticed to play as basi (still underplayed) if they knew that a gassed hummy would give them an assist.

What say?

[your face]

I like this idea.  e:  o

[UniqPhoeniX]

So if a human is hit while gassed, part of the damage is accounted as done by basi?

[Conzul]

So if a human is hit while gassed, part of the damage is accounted as done by basi?

Sounds reasonable.

[David]

Ditto healing and grabbing.

Basi's fighting is a quick way to die, so we need some other way to get evos and points.

[ACKMAN]

Goons trying to snipe human base might also die without even killing anyone. Should we give em free evos? I like basi but I don't think this is a balanced idea. Everytime I die I get at least one kill so I can evolve again into a lisk. And if I don't, I'll just use a dretch...

So... No.

[Conzul]

Goons trying to snipe human base might also die without even killing anyone. Should we give em free evos? I like basi but I don't think this is a balanced idea. Everytime I die I get at least one kill so I can evolve again into a lisk. And if I don't, I'll just use a dretch...

So... No.

You missed the point entirely. Besides, there is no such thing as a free evo. Partial points would be gained (by basi) if a teammate killed a human who was still under the gass effect. This is collaboration, and should be rewarded. Oh, and a goon sniping a base is actually doing damage, while Basi gass does not. It's nice to know that you have the skill to gain TWO evos for an adv basi every time you die. You must have wonderful ping.

So... Piss off.

[ACKMAN]

You missed the point entirely. Besides, there is no such thing as a free evo. Partial points would be gained (by basi) if a teammate killed a human who was still under the gass effect. This is collaboration, and should be rewarded. Oh, and a goon sniping a base is actually doing damage, while Basi gass does not. It's nice to know that you have the skill to gain TWO evos for an adv basi every time you die. You must have wonderful ping.

So... Piss off.

I'm not saying we're not helping with the kill, but that we(myself at least) have enough tools for getting evos. Also, who cares about giving damage while sniping - you're not getting evos anyway.

Try actually 'not suiciding'. It works if you want to save some evos. I'm not saying lisks don't use to die. I just think you're a low level class and should think 2 times before getting into a group of s2 humans... I'm just sayin'.

[Norfenstein]

Besides, there is no such thing as a free evo.

Except for the ones you get for free every two minutes?

[Asvarox]

The point was that he didn't want to give lisk "special" free evofrag.

Sure, basilisk is not that helpless when it comes to fight, but it's also not as useful in that aspect as any other class (besides granger). Many people use lisk as support anyway, they don't look for any lone human, but they heal aliens and support them in fights by gassing their foes (which can be really useful). I say those people also deserve an frag for their job.

Getting frags from gassing is quite difficult issue as it can be easily used for frag stealing (f.e. gasing a human grabbed by another lisk, or naked against full hp rant, chance less naked builders against dretch - nothing is more annoying than having 9/10 of a frag). Getting awards from healing seems like easier thing to think about. If ever made, I think it should look like this - each 100dmg dealt by humans healed gives lisk 0,1 frag. In addition it should also give +1 to score. Numbers probably will need tweaking. Also, while "tking and healing" abuse is fixed, it's still possible to let rets/whatever damage an alien to let lisk heal it thus score evos and points.

[ACKMAN]

People should use basi because they enjoy it, not because they want high scores.

Basi is -imho- the most entertaining class in the game. But I know I'm not going to be the the top-killer(unless your teammates are niggers, you can be so pro but, come on - a tyrant will always be better than you). I know this and I'm not going to stop using my fav class just because of that.

[Conzul]

Besides, there is no such thing as a free evo.

Except for the ones you get for free every two minutes?

My dear Norf....these are earned for PLAYING (in 1.1 it was earned 4 surviving).

The point was that he didn't want to give lisk "special" free evofrag.

Sure, basilisk is not that helpless when it comes to fight, but it's also not as useful in that aspect as any other class (besides granger). Many people use lisk as support anyway, they don't look for any lone human, but they heal aliens and support them in fights by gassing their foes (which can be really useful). I say those people also deserve an frag for their job.

Getting frags from gassing is quite difficult issue as it can be easily used for frag stealing (f.e. gasing a human grabbed by another lisk, or naked against full hp rant, chance less naked builders against dretch - nothing is more annoying than having 9/10 of a frag). Getting awards from healing seems like easier thing to think about. If ever made, I think it should look like this - each 100dmg dealt by humans healed gives lisk 0,1 frag. In addition it should also give +1 to score. Numbers probably will need tweaking. Also, while "tking and healing" abuse is fixed, it's still possible to let rets/whatever damage an alien to let lisk heal it thus score evos and points.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think basis should get killassists for grabbing, just gassing.

People should use basi because they enjoy it, not because they want high scores.

Basi is -imho- the most entertaining class in the game. But I know I'm not going to be the the top-killer(unless your teammates are niggers, you can be so pro but, come on - a tyrant will always be better than you). I know this and I'm not going to stop using my fav class just because of that.

I understand, but if a player feels this way, he's still being selfish. You are putting your fun factor over winning. You should play a class because it helps to win, not because it's fun for you personally ( or don't, but you're being an ass). In a standard tremulous match, team victory is the only objective. There are no other game modes (like Hunt or Infestation) that glorify personal skill with a preferred class. Personally, I think the Basi is not a fun class, reasons below.

The Adv.Basilisk (in large matches, mind you) is unique in that it is a "dead-end-class". It helps the war effort, but it cannot (with the security and ease of other classes) gain points to pay for itself or advancement. Gassing a huge group of humans that is under attack by teammates vastly improves your team's chances. Yet, scorewise, you are not recognized for it. This is Very Bad. Also, there are not a great deal of players who use Basi because they like it. As it is, it is the most difficult alien class to master (I don't even pretend to be passable at it). Giving it kill assists, as I have proposed, would encourage its use by more mediocre players and nOObs, which is a Very Good Thing.

Do you understand me now?

[David]

I understand, but if a player feels this way, he's still being selfish. You are putting your fun factor over winning. You should play a class because it helps to win, not because it's fun for you personally ( or don't, but you're being an ass). In a standard tremulous match, team victory is the only objective. There are no other game modes (like Hunt or Infestation) that glorify personal skill with a preferred class. Personally, I think the Basi is not a fun class, reasons below.

I play for fun.  It's a game, it's primary purpose is fun and entertainment.  If I'm not having fun, I stop playing.
For some people winning is so fun it makes up for the game sucking; but I'd rather lose a good game than win a sucky one.

[Conzul]

I understand, but if a player feels this way, he's still being selfish. You are putting your fun factor over winning. You should play a class because it helps to win, not because it's fun for you personally ( or don't, but you're being an ass). In a standard tremulous match, team victory is the only objective. There are no other game modes (like Hunt or Infestation) that glorify personal skill with a preferred class. Personally, I think the Basi is not a fun class, reasons below.

I play for fun.  It's a game, it's primary purpose is fun and entertainment.  If I'm not having fun, I stop playing.
For some people winning is so fun it makes up for the game sucking; but I'd rather lose a good game than win a sucky one.

True.

When I talk about these things, I'm generally trying from the perspective of a light or new gamer, unsure if this is the game for them. Obviously, if you've played for 5 years and are a badass cult sunuvabitch, or are that way in general, by all means go by those rules.
I try to think of ideas and bring to light problems that help new people get into trem, to make it more accessible, so that it will survive.

Because I think Tremulous is fun.

Edit: I forgot to add that Basilisk has GOT to be the most tk'd class in existence, because of it's grabbing and close-support nature. This is another vacuum where precious fragsevos go.

[mooseberry]

I understand, but if a player feels this way, he's still being selfish. You are putting your fun factor over winning. You should play a class because it helps to win, not because it's fun for you personally ( or don't, but you're being an ass). In a standard tremulous match, team victory is the only objective. There are no other game modes (like Hunt or Infestation) that glorify personal skill with a preferred class. Personally, I think the Basi is not a fun class, reasons below.

I play for fun.  It's a game, it's primary purpose is fun and entertainment.  If I'm not having fun, I stop playing.
For some people winning is so fun it makes up for the game sucking; but I'd rather lose a good game than win a sucky one.

It's good to play for fun, but Tremulous is allready built around rewards for accomplishments much more so than any normal FPS (creds/evos mostly) and it's a good idea. It allows players to upgrade from accomplishments... bla bla bla, I expect everyone to know this allready, but just bringing it back up as a point.

I am personally favorable towards the idea of allowing basilisks partial evos for gassing, rewarding players for accomplishing things is a good thing IMO, and should happen.

[rotacak]

I think it should look like this - each 100dmg dealt by humans healed gives lisk 0,1 frag

Something like that is in 1.1. That was removed in 1.2 too?

[gimhael]

I think it should look like this - each 100dmg dealt by humans healed gives lisk 0,1 frag

Something like that is in 1.1. That was removed in 1.2 too?

No class ever got evos for providing a healing aura to others. IMHO the basilisk is powerful enough for a 1-evo class anyway.

[ACKMAN]

No class ever got evos for providing a healing aura to others. IMHO the basilisk is powerful enough for a 1-evo class anyway.

That's the point.

@conzul: when I use lisk is because there are more players in my team(or because i'm going to lose anyway and I don't give a shit) that can support it. I don't like goon(a.k.a. I suck with it) or tyrant, I prefer small fun classes. If I need to help my team because they can't stay alive I'll evolve into goon or any big mumf*cker... but until then I'll be a li'l basi and have fun. Also - I use to gather evos first either with rant or with granger(been building for a while) so when I die I have another 8 evos.

Note that - I don't use to play 1.2, so I don't really know how MUCH that gas effect is now. Also, I play with FF off.

[Conzul]

No class ever got evos for providing a healing aura to others. IMHO the basilisk is powerful enough for a 1-evo class anyway.

That's the point.

@conzul: when I use lisk is because there are more players in my team(or because i'm going to lose anyway and I don't give a shit) that can support it. I don't like goon(a.k.a. I suck with it) or tyrant, I prefer small fun classes. If I need to help my team because they can't stay alive I'll evolve into goon or any big mumf*cker... but until then I'll be a li'l basi and have fun. Also - I use to gather evos first either with rant or with granger(been building for a while) so when I die I have another 8 evos.

Note that - I don't use to play 1.2, so I don't really know how MUCH that gas effect is now. Also, I play with FF off.

Mkay, I don't disagree with any of that...except
You say that you might collect evos with a heavy(class) then go basi once you have a full purse. But ask, how did you get to collect points yourself? Did someone basi for you? Players all over are doing that, going basi when they feel secure. There aren't that many around early game, when they're needed. Which is a shame.
But I am referring to the 1.2 Advanced Basilisk (looks at gimhael) the 2-evo one not the 1-evo basi. In 1.2 the gass does no damage, but affects more humans.
I've managed to get distracted in this thread. Mainly, I just believe that all things and tradeoffs considered, that if as an ADV basi I spend time gassing instead of swiping, I should be rewarded with a partial evo is my quarry goes down. That's all, and I think that it would be fair-not-unfair.

[ACKMAN]

how did you get to collect points yourself? Did someone basi for you? Players all over are doing that, going basi when they feel secure. There aren't that many around early game, when they're needed. Which is a shame.

I don't get it.

About the rest: let's say a mara teams up with a ... pfff goon(basis are better here). If the mara jumps over the humans to distract them doing no damage... should he get evos? He does help the team and risks his own life, but he gets nothing in return. Of course you can still attack... but that's not the point of jumping randomly.

[EDIT] Or think about the fatty rant. He uses to tank while goons snipe, does he get any evos for doing that?

[Conzul]

About the rest: let's say a mara teams up with a ... pfff goon(basis are better here). If the mara jumps over the humans to distract them doing no damage... should he get evos? He does help the team and risks his own life, but he gets nothing in return. Of course you can still attack... but that's not the point of jumping randomly.

[EDIT] Or think about the fatty rant. He uses to tank while goons snipe, does he get any evos for doing that?

Mkay but you're taking it too far. All things are related, so your right, BUT...
The assists you mention are all types of indirect assistance, because like I said all things relate and there is a cause and effect for everything. Basilisk Gas is direct assistance, I believe, because it is an attack, used by pressing a dominant attack button (or click). As such, it is much less nebulous than distractions, tanking, or any number of other conceivable tactics. It should at least give partial points, if not partial EVO's, because for every other alien, primary and secondary attack usage yields points or evos in one fashion or another. Hell even the granger gets points for it's "primary attack" which is the build command. Basilisk gas is a "primary", direct attack, which should yield partial points (or evos) if it results in a takedown.

I don't get it.

how did you get to collect points yourself? Did someone basi for you? Because you should return the favor Players all over are doing that, going basi when they feel secure. There aren't that many basilisks for healing people around early game, when they're needed. Which is a shame.

[F50]

Points I understand, both for healing and gassing, because points are a form of positive feedback, which basis players (especially newbies) could easily be rewarded for.

Evos not so much. Because you are not doing direct *damage* you should get no evos. Evos for healing would be a form of farmable evos that could upset the balance of the game, especially in scrims. Furthermore, gass doesn't have to be used for the good of other aliens.

[Conzul]

Okay, points then. Fine by moi.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I agree that evos for heal is farmable, but it's easy to detect if a human was gassed when hit by another alien. It's not direct damage, but you are helping your teammates deal damage.

[Conzul]

helping your teammates deal damage.

and survive and
confuse incoming fire and
disheartening nOObs who aren't used to the gass effect.
The basi should be credited.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

+1 for points instead of evos.
a healing basi is camping at a corner mostly, so they earn the time-evos anyway.

as base destruction is only rewarded but not credited, it should go the same way.

[ACKMAN]

Grangers DON'T get evos for building. They get evos for playing, as lisks (or any class) do.

If you think a mara trying to distract players is *indirect* help... meh. Try to team up with a mara when using basi - you'll see what I mean. A mara can perfectly jump over a human and hit him, but also can jump around him to make him *cough*fail*cough* at aiming.

[Conzul]

Grangers DON'T get evos for building. They get evos for playing, as lisks (or any class) do.

If you think a mara trying to distract players is *indirect* help... meh. Try to team up with a mara when using basi - you'll see what I mean. A mara can perfectly jump over a human and hit him, but also can jump around him to make him *cough*fail*cough* at aiming.

Hell even the granger gets points for it's "primary attack" which is the build command.

I said points not evos.

[ACKMAN]

Hell even the granger gets points for it's "primary attack" which is the build command.

I said points not evos.

Oh, touché. 1.1fag here didn't realize what you meant.

[CorSair]

As much short time i've been in 1.2gpp servers, I think this idea is good.

Adv. Basi is most excellent support alien, for their magnicifient quick-heal aura and the gas.

Now, i don't much use the basis while aliens (except for heal if no booster avaible and frontline support, and rarely use gas, and yes, i'm most f****n retarded players in trem ), but gas is real annoying. And dretches biting your legs and goons ripping head off, while you can't get clear picture and you're slooooooowww aaaasssss sssnaaaiilll, they should get bit credit for makin humans easy frags for others.

Sheesh, and if they try get frags themselves (basis), its quite big chance that less accurate player chomps basi accidently for help (beech! it wuz killsteal!) Not bad i say. and if they should be given points, i would give 0.1 or 0.2 points for assist minus total health of human [for example, 75 hp human gassed, goon kills, basi gets 1.5 or 0.75 points]. And only saying my opinion.

Then the backside of this.

This makes bit easy to get evos if get lucky. But they probably get bored for gassing humans all time to scrape evos from assisting. But depends what our devs think of this