A Non Flame Analyzation of Tremulous

[Rekov]

One of the biggest issues I see people talking about in the forums is the issue of human camping. I would like to explain why I think humans camp.

1. Humans have a symbiotic relationship with their base. Human players need the base to heal, re arm, upgrade weapons, and as defense (in s1 and s2). Especially in s1, a human who leaves the base is instant goon meat. The s1 weapons all have a very low ammo capacity. The chaingun's 300 shots are nothing when you take into account the rate of fire and damage per shot. Humans have to be close to base, because if you run out of ammo to far from base, you are doomed.

The human base is also dependant on a continuous human presence. It requires repairs every time something takes damage, which means a builder is necessary. To defened the builder, players are necessary. The cycle is perpetuated.

2. Aliens are not base dependant. While they need an overmind to function, they do not need to be near it to heal, evolve, and they do not need to re arm at all. They are independant killing machines who are capable of solo work.

The alien base is also not dependant on constant supervision. The base surves two purposes, to allow aliens to spawn, and to protect the overmind. In protecting the overmind alien bases excel. The alien defenses regenerate, which negates the need for a repair person. Humans also rarely attempt to assult the base until at least s2, which gives the aliens plenty of time to build up.



As you can see, there is not one issue that can be fixed to prevent human camping. Everything in tremulous is designed, deliberatly or not, for humans to camp. Humans function better in their base, aliens function better attacking the enemy base. Its a complex problem, and there is not a simple solution, so the next time you complain about base campers, think about what you are really complaining about: The entire system of the humans and the entire system of the aliens, in effect, you are complaining about the nature of the game.

[DIGI_Byte]

actually it all balances out but i they go for an update i have drawn and designed new units.

there is a bug that must 'reload' becuase it shoots acid slime out of its abdamin... (spelling sux)... bum, and another that reqires a building to evolve and the unit must 'enter' it to do so
this new thing i'm doing its basically S3 things ar much harder to get and they balance out many things but there sytles are deferent e.g. human defenses rely on distance and aliens or bug defences rely on craped corners and in numbers like them up higher than you...

i don't know how to link it to a phrase in another thread but here is one...

http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=quote&p=13273

 

[PIE]

Weapons and health do tether humans to the human base.
I believe if i'm not wrong.. there will be an ammo pack, and a heal pack in the next version... this should get them out there a bit more.

I think fixing the problem.. finding a way to move humans out of the base though really depends on everything.. what humans are and what aliens are... what you said.. the nature of the game... aliens have weak defense, so balance is THERE, its just playing styles...

I don't really mind all that much.. i'd rather have the camping humans than a new game.

[Catalyc]

Most humans barely move bases to good locations, in a well placed location a guy with lasgun and a builder can stay behind while the rest of the team attacks. Base camipng is overrated, and it rarely wins you a game (unless its a 40+ player server), but its common among newbies. The thing about humans is that they can camp anywhere, and the most cost-efficient tactic in the early game would be to gather a big group and attack one of the alien base entrances without going in (and getting damaged by defenses), although some humans might just die, with good aim a big squad could kill at least 8-10 aliens (dretches mostly) before returning to base.

An alien base will rarely be better than a human base, even the crappiest human base. Yes, structures regenerate health, but they are also weaker. An unsupervised alien base is just calling for a ninja lumberjack attack. While tyrants have to retreat to reheal once or twice when taking down a decently built defensive front, a guy with a grenade and pulse/luci can cripple most alien bases without getting too much damage. Of course, this is when talking about undefended bases.

There isn't really a big problem with camping, the problem is that most players haven't figured out how really play the game yet.

[rasz_pl]

There isn't really a big problem with camping, the problem is that most players haven't figured out how really play the game yet.

exactly, I got a couple of WTF from both teams on newbie infested servers after i killed ALL the eggs in first 1-2 minutes of the game while all the alien n00bs dretched the turrets.

Best thing aliens can do at the beggining is :
-one granger to build couple more acids and 1-2 additional eggs
-dretches hidden in the middle of the map WAITING to AMBUSH weak S1 hummies. Attackin from BEHIND, SILENTLY, without fokin jumping arround and making noises :/

What I see on newbie servers ? :
-no grangers till OM starts screaming from pain
-dretchin the turrets and keeping humans pinned down in base + often yelling "camping humans"

What humans should/could do?
-build defenses INSIDE base / move base to better spot
-LISTEN to vets/better players. If the player from the TOP of the scoreboard tells you to move to red room NOW you just DO IT NOW.
-DONT build turret walls half the corridor from the reac/telenodes/armory.
-DONT sit on turrets. Both generate turret kills, turret kills DONT count as stage kills.

What I hate the most? 3 BS+LUCY combo guys standing leaned on the wall waiting for I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT? Especially on ACTS .. in 30 minute of a game .. all from the bottom of the scoreboard .. HOW they managed to get the money for BS+lucy combo is beyond me .. while I desperatelly try to attack alien base alone and constantly run out of money they just stand there .... ARGGHHHH @#@%$%^@#^#^%

[Lava Croft]

If you play Tremulous with a proper amount of players, let's say 8 to 14, camping Humans are barely a serious problem. In fact, even stronger than in the games with LOTS of players, camping Humans are losing Humans, since anyone who camps loses control over the map, unless it's DM6 from Quake1, but thats an entirely different story.

I have been playing Tremulous for almost 3 years now, with a break of about a year in which I rarely played, and I have to say that Tremulous is in fact very balanced. Most 'balance' issues are merely players who just aren't good enough at Tremulous yet, people who need to spend more time in Tremulous, as opposed to hanging out here.

As a last, Rekov, I have seen you play a multitude of times, and I'm being honest with you when I say you aren't really any good at Tremulous, yet. Train more, and you will see those 'balance' issues aren't ''balance' issues, but features, save a few real bugs, of course.

[StVald]

What about gernades. Gernades do massive damage... Even if you don't hit buildings, 1 well placed gernade usually takes out 3 aliens, and you get more than enough money to buy another gernade.

Not many people use gernades proactively. I think they are afraid that if they are close enough to the alien base to gernade it, the aliens will proly kill them  quickly and they'll lose their fancy outfit and weapons. That's why I never go gernading alien bases with any other equipment other than what you spawn with.

Im sure this base camping thing can be eased a little if more pro players joined a game at once and they started making big plans through teamchat about raiding the alien base. This would inspire the new players, who otherwise learn to base camp from intermediate players. I remember one game someone who was playing for the second time boldly commanded my team to "Stay behind the turrets!" because he heard that bit of "wisdom" from another new player in his first game, and thought that was the only strategy.

We don't to change a lot of balance stuff, we only need to create an environment were lots of people are encouraging others to get out of the base. And this has to be done passively. People these days hate to be commanded. But if a few pro players started hyping up their raids and their success with each other, other new players will overhear and be like "I want to have as much fun and glory as them."

[JohnBristow]

As a human, every move I make is planned. Playing as humans requires deep thinking. You have to plan your base out, guarding your builders as they hurredly try to move the base early in the match. You have to plan your attacks. Humans rushing by themselves early on are dead.  An example would be taking one of the many long hallways in the game and rushing it alone. A dretch could easily wait silently until I pass below, and then drop down for a quick kill. However, if I rush down that same long hallway, with two teamates behind, crouched and providing cover, and three teamates by my side, no alien stands a chance. Aliens are the exact opposite. They don't require much strategy. They can attack together, but they can also attack alone. The game does have a few balance issues, namely the fact that humans can rush early in the fight with painsaws and win easily, while the aliens can't rush because of the turrets that will quickly gun down dretches. Basically, the shift of power changes over the course of the match. At the beginning, humans can rush and win, unless aliens defend well. In the middle, both teams are equally vunerable, though the humans do have a slight advantage in defense. Near the end of the match, humans are either on complete defense or full offense. If the aliens manage to rush with about five tyrants, humans are screwed. The game requires some thinking, and people don't like to think. I believe noobies have a hard time with the game because they aren't used to thinking in a game like UT2K4.