Reflexive fire for Acid Tubes

[Conzul]

In other words, having acid tubes  squirt acid if they are being damaged, even if they don't detect an enemy. This would help to hurt humans who try to fire around a corner at the sides of a tube so as not to get damaged by it. Except for the Dragoon's barb, aliens don't get to attack human structures without getting fired at, while often humans can creep just far enough around a corner to kill a tube without the tube detecting them. I know that tubes should be built well so this problem is minimized, but even when they are built right they don't always fire when a human can fire at them from up close. (meant 4 1.2, but I guess applies to 1.1 as well)

Reasons for this:

*** Humans can repeatedly and effectively defeat alien defenses without taking the damage they were meant to while attacking. Aliens cannot inflict damage on human bases without being targeted and fired upon in one form or another, with the exception of the dragoon's barb. The dragoon barb only becomes available at stage 2, while humans can damage and kill acid tubes at any stage. This represents an element of imbalance, if only situational. From observation, though, this may and does happen multiple times per match, so I hesitate to classify it as situational.

*** Acid tubes do little damage anyway, and have a limited range that makes them very weak. They don't deserve, on top of that, to be taken out by enemy action almost for free. A non-damaging barricade is more effective in protecting a base then a set of 2 or 3 acid tubes, that's how weak  's are.

*** Both teams start out with an s1 defense that is meant to be effective during two stages of progress. Only at s3 does each team get a better defensive buildable. However, the human turret does a far better job of holding its own well into stage 2 (s2 alien attacks), than an acid tube does against humans when they have reached s2. (Think flamer with it's increased ammo and nades. Helmets too allow humans an greatly increased life time when in range of acid tubes.)

This is an attempt to make a weak buildable at least moderately more effective without changing its defensive or offensive numbers.

[ACKMAN]

I think with some time any alien base can be killed with a single rifle. Without even taking damage(nvm about 1.2 hives).

Aliens shouldn't leave base alone - humans don't do it. With the 1.2 healing changes aliens should visit their base EVEN MORE OFTEN than they used in 1.2. I don't think acid tube needs any change as all alien structures can be killed without taking damage - if you take some time for positioning yourself. Even if we add that reflecting damage to acid tube, you would still be able to kill a trapper/barricade/egg/hive/whatever without getting hurt. Should we add reflecting damage to any of those structures? I don't think so.

About the structures added when getting new stages... Aliens get trapper at s2 which is a pretty good defense. Maybe a lone tube can't do much but if you add a trapper you'll likely kill unarmoured humans and/or gain some time to kill the trapped human yourself.

Human bases should resist and DO resist more than alien's because they need it. Humans don't attack as often as aliens do. And if they did, the game would need a few balance tweaks(for obvious reasons). Alien bases are designed to slowdown and slowly hurt attackers to let you finish the work. If human bases were designed that way... oh, wait... I lol'd.

[David]

Tube will fire if they can hit you, so that change wouldn't make any difference.

They attack from the centre of their bbox to the centre of yours.  You attack from your centre to any point you want, allowing you to attack when the game still thinks it's blocked.
One solution could be to make the tubes able to attack to any point on your bbox, although I have no idea how hard that would be to do.

[ACKMAN]

I have no idea how hard that would be to do.

What about an area check? as RC does.

[Conzul]

Well the trapper doesn't work that well because it, too, has too small of a range. The fact that defense is needed should not be an excuse to allow humans to be able to kill tubes like that. For instance, there may be a forward egg and tube that you and your teammates didn't happen to spawn at. It's not our fault we're not defending it, we got plopped somewhere else.
  About "reflexive fire" (call it what u want) not working anyway, you could change it so that it damages anyone in a certain radius of it regardless of line-of-sight. Acid should be pervasive and flowwy anyway, able to seep around corners and through cracks. Simple. If human is in X distance of tube and tube is being damaged by human action, tube fires dealing damage to all enemies in radius X, regardless of line of sight. If it isn't being damaged, then it won't fire until it "sees" a human in the traditional sense.

[Kiwi]

Simple. If human is in X distance of tube and tube is being damaged by human action, tube fires dealing damage to all enemies in radius X

This won't work, because it will damage players behind walls that they shouldn't be able to do.  For example on arachnid2, in the alien base.  I do however think that allowing tubes to "attack" from the center of their bbox to anywhere on the humans bbox should be added.

[Conzul]

Simple. If human is in X distance of tube and tube is being damaged by human action, tube fires dealing damage to all enemies in radius X

This won't work, because it will damage players behind walls that they shouldn't be able to do.  For example on arachnid2, in the alien base.  I do however think that allowing tubes to "attack" from the center of their bbox to anywhere on the humans bbox should be added.

Nice Try.

For one, why shouldn't it hit humans around walls? It's acid, it floats everywhere like fog and has limited range. Unless you mean say, a tube firing and hurting humans in an adjacent hall....but that tube is being fired at by a human (or it wouldn't go off in the first place), so it is that human's fault for not being aware of the damage he is doing to his teammates. Why are his teammates sitting in the other hall or behind the wall where this might occur? It would be highly situational (or on few maps) that this would matter.

  If it were fixed to be like this -->

  I do however think that allowing tubes to "attack" from the center of their bbox to anywhere on the humans bbox should be added.

that would work nicely too.

[Kiwi]

What about something like this:


That would damage every teammate here:


Seems to me that remove the line of sight would cause a lot of strange collateral damage.  You say that that might be ok, but I think that it would lead to many confused players in pub games.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I do not agree with that, since turrets can easily be attacked without taking damage, either by dodging (it's sometimes possible to dodge 5+ turrets by taking minimal or no damage even if they are well placed), or simply attacking from below, or, what do you know, by attacking from behind a corner (also works for tesla). I would like to see a damage increase however, since the main use for acid in s3 seems to be slowdown at the moment.

Tube will fire if they can hit you,...

Not when the bottom lower side of the bbox is not in LoS of your bbox middle I guess. That is, lower side, even if it's on a wall, and not the side that faces the wall or is at bottom of model. IMO that should be fixed, as it's making tubes kinda inconsistent.
EDIT: At least it seems so, since a tube built on a wall next to a corner, and another tube directly below on ground will be triggered at the same time when a human approaches from behind the corner, but a tube built on a ledge won't attack a human approaching from below before he is way too close (arachnid2 default acids at om for example). Another interesting thing is that if you approach such an acid while standing, it can hit you before it detects you, but if you approach while crouching, will detect you and fire before it can hit you...

[Conzul]

@Kiwi's Picture Post

Unless you mean say, a tube firing and hurting humans in an adjacent hall....but that tube is being fired at by a human (or it wouldn't go off in the first place), so it is that human's fault for not being aware of the damage he is doing to his teammates. Why are his teammates sitting in the other hall or behind the wall where this might occur?

Like this, right?

@Mr. Phoenix

I do not agree with that, since turrets can easily be attacked without taking damage, either by dodging (it's sometimes possible to dodge 5+ turrets by taking minimal or no damage even if they are well placed), or simply attacking from below, or, what do you know, by attacking from behind a corner (also works for tesla).

You make a valid point, but plz don't be condescending about it.
Turrets may be attacked without taking damage, but only if they are poorly placed, or if the attacker has sufficient skill. (Hell a granger can take out rets now, if they're unguarded, that's not the point) The point is that they are actively knowing that you are there and making efforts (as only a dogged AI can) to kill you, the point is the alien and the turret have "entered a dance" of death that is decided by skill. (Ho boy) With acid tube corner killing, this dance never takes place. Also, people are learning to build for 1.2, so turrets aren't being put by corners or on ledges anymore. We take them out easily because we have skill, low ping, whatever. Killing an acid tube takes little to no skill once you know that you can just target its sides without getting hurt. Several guides tell aliens to let players enter their base so that base structures can damage them and so that the players can finish them off. But if the humans have the ability to do this cheat creep, that will never happen.

[ACKMAN]

Noobs don't know they can kill tubes from corners and... poorly placed tubes can be corner-killed. Also, if you fail at placing yourself to kill the tube it will likely hurt you, as a turret does.

[Conzul]

Noobs don't know they can kill tubes from corners and... poorly placed tubes can be corner-killed. Also, if you fail at placing yourself to kill the tube it will likely hurt you, as a turret does.

All tubes, no matter how well they are placed, can be corner killed. The problem is setting up a second tube so that they can cover eachother. All it takes is watching someone who's done it before, and a Noob can do it from then on, it's that easy.

It is easy.

[_Equilibrium_]

@Kiwi's Picture Post

Unless you mean say, a tube firing and hurting humans in an adjacent hall....but that tube is being fired at by a human (or it wouldn't go off in the first place), so it is that human's fault for not being aware of the damage he is doing to his teammates. Why are his teammates sitting in the other hall or behind the wall where this might occur?

Like this, right?

I don't understand your response. Are you saying it's every human's responsibility to know every other human's position on the map? A human could be on the other side of a wall for numerous perfectly fine reasons, such as traveling to other parts of the map or fighting aliens at that moment. If you could explain your statement more, it might clear things up, because it sounds to me like you are being insanely unreasonable. And there is no reason for acid to go through walls. If that was the case, the wall would corrode away as well, perhaps creating another hole for a player to shoot through, or perhaps even crouch through. So it only makes sense that the acid is not strong enough to melt walls.

[Conzul]

@Kiwi's Picture Post

Unless you mean say, a tube firing and hurting humans in an adjacent hall....but that tube is being fired at by a human (or it wouldn't go off in the first place), so it is that human's fault for not being aware of the damage he is doing to his teammates. Why are his teammates sitting in the other hall or behind the wall where this might occur?

Like this, right?

I don't understand your response. Are you saying it's every human's responsibility to know every other human's position on the map? A human could be on the other side of a wall for numerous perfectly fine reasons, such as traveling to other parts of the map or fighting aliens at that moment. If you could explain your statement more, it might clear things up, because it sounds to me like you are being insanely unreasonable. And there is no reason for acid to go through walls. If that was the case, the wall would corrode away as well, perhaps creating another hole for a player to shoot through, or perhaps even crouch through. So it only makes sense that the acid is not strong enough to melt walls.

Of course acid can't go through solid walls. I mean going around corners and maybe through vents. And even if it could go through solid walls into the next hall (kiwi's pic) it has a minimal range so only the type of ppl we make fun of would be hurt by it.

[_Equilibrium_]

And even if it could go through solid walls into the next hall (kiwi's pic) it has a minimal range so only the type of ppl we make fun of would be hurt by it.

This I can't agree with. How can you possibly make fun of someone for getting hurt by something he can't even see?

[Conzul]

How can you possibly make fun of someone for getting hurt by something he can't even see?

LoL nUb my lisk got u?

[_Equilibrium_]

How can you possibly make fun of someone for getting hurt by something he can't even see?

LoL nUb my lisk got u?

That's not even close to being a good comparison. Even if the lisk is good, it still always risks being seen and shot at before it can grab you. The only defense against an acid tube that can reach through a wall is avoiding it, which may be hard considering you cant possibly know it's exact location. Not only that, but there are many cases where an acid tube can be placed to defend the alien base in a spot where humans MUST go through in order to attack the alien base.

[Cadynum]

Of course acid can't go through solid walls. I mean going around corners and maybe through vents. And even if it could go through solid walls into the next hall (kiwi's pic) it has a minimal range so only the type of ppl we make fun of would be hurt by it.

Can we make fun out of people with silly balance suggestions too?
Because I think you just qualified.

[mooseberry]

Of course acid can't go through solid walls. I mean going around corners and maybe through vents. And even if it could go through solid walls into the next hall (kiwi's pic) it has a minimal range so only the type of ppl we make fun of would be hurt by it.

Can we make fun out of people with silly balance suggestions too?
Because I think you just qualified.

"Balance" need not apply.

[Meisseli]

Yay for wallhacking tubes!

Your idea is really silly. Though I wouldn't mind a damage increase to tubes.

[Conzul]

Not only that, but there are many cases where an acid tube can be placed to defend the alien base in a spot where humans MUST go through in order to attack the alien base.

So? It won't go off unless a human is inside the alien base shooting at it.

[sigh] k it's a silly idea. Tubes are too weak though. I wonder if increasing their creep size would help...