Hive HP and Other Issues

[Conzul]

I wish to complain about the fact that a hive has only 125HP, which is identical to the acid tube's HP count. An S3 defense should have a bit more to show in the body department (see tesla, cheaper, more assured damage, and takes 3 (three) tyrant swipes to kill it). Can we raise it's body points to say 150 or 200? Feedback appreciated.

Edit1: There are also problems with the hive in general. Sometimes it won't fire at all.

Here is a Youtube video showing a hive failure

Also, from a lower post:

It's generally much better to build an acid tube, even when a hive could be built:
Reason 1: Acid tube has the same or better defense numbers (same HP, smaller profile).
Reason 2: Acid tube builds faster.
Reason 3: Acid tube damages several people at once, constantly, unlike the still lethargic attacks of the hive.
In general, there isn't that much reason to build a hive as compared to a tube (the exception being attack range, which doesn't help all that much considering aliens try for compact base locations and just-around-the-corner building.) By suggesting this, I'm trying to make the hive a bit more appealing to build when it becomes available.

[F50]

I'm afraid I don't understand why people thing everything in s3 should be a tank. What's wrong with a glass cannon? Is there are reason balance-wise this change should be made rather that simply: "its in s3"?

[Conzul]

I'm afraid I don't understand why people thing everything in s3 should be a tank. What's wrong with a glass cannon? Is there are reason balance-wise this change should be made rather that simply: "its in s3"?

Not exactly a balance reason, but a gameplay one (o.O) It's generally much better to build an acid tube, even when a hive could be built:
Reason 1: Acid tube has the same or better defense numbers (same HP, smaller profile).
Reason 2: Acid tube builds faster.
Reason 3: Acid tube damages several people at once, constantly, unlike the still lethargic attacks of the hive.
In general, there isn't that much reason to build a hive as compared to a tube (the exception being attack range, which doesn't help all that much considering aliens try for compact base locations and just-around-the-corner building.) By suggesting this, I'm trying to make the hive a bit more appealing to build when it becomes available. The fact that it deserves something because it's S3 is the weakest of my arguments, ironic that you would cite that. Still, even that is a reason. Aren't higher level rewards supposed to have better appeal?
Additionally, I disagree with you that adding 25-75 HP to the hive would make it a tank. That minor addition would give the hive a better survivability chance, something to make it worth building over a tube.

[mooseberry]

Maybe 10 or 15 more hp, but besides that I don't think so.

[Conzul]

Maybe 10 or 15 more hp, but besides that I don't think so.

LoL I'd even settle for that....

[UniqPhoeniX]

I already highly prefer hives over acids because of their huge range and high damage, no need for more hp IMO. Often it's possible to build hives that cover the whole base area, so you don't need to split all your defences per entrance, nor do you need to worry about humans jumping past the defences. If anything should get more hp, then it's the trapper, which tends to die from just about any nearby splash damage.
Also: you sure OM was up in that video?

[David]

The hive's swarms can follow people for a long time, so maybe that hive's swarm was already out hunting?

[Conzul]

If anything should get more hp, then it's the trapper, which tends to die from just about any nearby splash damage.
Also: you sure OM was up in that video?

Yeah, it was on top of the train car, I just didn't have the presence of mind to pan that way.
And trapper is pathetic. I always thought it was one of those jokes, bite-the-thumb ya know.

The hive's swarms can follow people for a long time, so maybe that hive's swarm was already out hunting?

:O So it can only have one swarm out at a time? (<--Newb) Well that in it self is a major problem right there. If there was a swarm out hunting in the clip, it's gotta hold a record for out-time. Wow didn't know that about the hive. Now I'm definitely never gonna build it, if it can have that swarm-away-hunting problem. Acid does more reliable and faster damage. I think the hive should fire regardless if it has a swarm out, like it bakes up a swarm and sends it off at intervals.
...nah, you gotta see, I'd been watching it for about 2-3 mins before it occurred to be to get a clip, so it actually hadn't been firing for about 5 mins total. I seriously doubt that a swarm was out hunting that long.

[Meisseli]

You're saying trappers are useless? They're the most useful defense there is. One trapper makes a dretch be able to kill any human inside the base. After a human is trapped, it's in most cases certain death for him, as aliens will be swarming the human. A good trapper base makes it really hard to lose the game.

Hives were pretty annoying yesterday for example in Eden, where I was very busy trying to avoid hives, kill eggs and OM with those aliens running behind me. Those hives killed me numerous times, which wouldn't have happened with tubes. If correctly placed, they deal massive damage. I don't know if it really needs more HP. Max 150 (for one rifle clip).

[UniqPhoeniX]

Hive repeat and swarm lifetime are both 3 seconds.
EDIT: just tested hives a bit and it turns out that, like zap chain, hives also attack anything in a cube shaped area. Not nearly as bad as with zap chain, but WTF?

[+ OPTIMUS +]

usually if you look at a hive its already almost too late to avoid its damage. not to mention well placed ones which you dont even notice before death.
its knockback also saves it from constant aimed fire.
i think its strong enough, even against battlesuits.

[David]

I think in 1.2 the swarm lifetime got bumped to "until you die or run enough"

[UniqPhoeniX]

usually if you look at a hive its already almost too late to avoid its damage

Not if you keep moving.
David: not according to what I just tested, nor this.

[David]

Hmm, it appears I was completely wrong on how they work.
No idea where I got that from then.  Sorry.

[Conzul]

You're saying trappers are useless? They're the most useful defense there is. One trapper makes a dretch be able to kill any human inside the base. After a human is trapped, it's in most cases certain death for him, as aliens will be swarming the human. A good trapper base makes it really hard to lose the game.

Hives were pretty annoying yesterday for example in Eden, where I was very busy trying to avoid hives, kill eggs and OM with those aliens running behind me. Those hives killed me numerous times, which wouldn't have happened with tubes. If correctly placed, they deal massive damage. I don't know if it really needs more HP. Max 150 (for one rifle clip).

Not useless - pathetic. They (trappers) are quite useful when they are positioned correctly. They are pathetic because of their minimal hitpoints, and their low range (even when you put them on the ceiling, they have suck-ass range). Hives can be "annoying" and effective when they work (not glitching like in mah film). But, like the trapper, I think their low body points are an insult!

[Norfenstein]

Hives do considerably more damage than acid tubes, and aren't dependent on being in close range to do that damage. We had to reduce the hive's health from 175 because in some situations only lucifer cannons could do enough damage quickly enough to kill one before its wielder died. I don't know if 125 is "too little", but frankly I've been more concerned about hives making acid tubes obsolete at stage 3.

[jm82792]

I think we should not cube the hive's range,
do a sphere or a subdivided cube in 1.2 final.

[Kiwi]

Creep, along with trappers, also greatly increases the effectiveness of hives, because it makes it a lot harder for humans to run from a swarm.

[Meisseli]

You're saying trappers are useless? They're the most useful defense there is. One trapper makes a dretch be able to kill any human inside the base. After a human is trapped, it's in most cases certain death for him, as aliens will be swarming the human. A good trapper base makes it really hard to lose the game.

Hives were pretty annoying yesterday for example in Eden, where I was very busy trying to avoid hives, kill eggs and OM with those aliens running behind me. Those hives killed me numerous times, which wouldn't have happened with tubes. If correctly placed, they deal massive damage. I don't know if it really needs more HP. Max 150 (for one rifle clip).

Not useless - pathetic. They (trappers) are quite useful when they are positioned correctly. They are pathetic because of their minimal hitpoints, and their low range (even when you put them on the ceiling, they have suck-ass range). Hives can be "annoying" and effective when they work (not glitching like in mah film). But, like the trapper, I think their low body points are an insult!

You just proved yourself to fail at trapper placement. Trappers in almost all cases are not to be placed on ceiling. You put them on a wall usually near floor-level, preferably behind cover, so it grabs a human in most of the cases. In ATCS for example all you need is 5+ trappers in good positions. You should've been playing 1.1, all bases there were almost only trapper bases, and they worked damn well against any human. And AFAIK trapper hasn't been changed in GPP 1.2 at all.

[Conzul]

Pfft, in 1.1 I could set up a full covered base with just two trappers. Each one was in a ceiling groove, and could fire both at the walkways and at lower enemies coming in the main entrance. Trappers should go on ceilings because most mappers put beams or runnels in ceilings that you can hide your trapper in. If it's on a wall, even 5-9 feet up, a grenade will still kill it, which is gay. But then again, I don't build much anymore. In GPP, the trapper seems to have trouble either seeing enemies, or just reaching them from a reasonable ceiling height (say, one-and-a-half tyrant heights). I think it would work much better if it fired more often, and stuck you for less time when it got you.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

I have to agree about the acid tube and the hive, hive's only use is to stop people (especially bsuits) from just standing there killing the base from far.