Are YOU awesome? volunteer for the Tutorial Demo project!

[chompers]

Heh, I can see that writing the actual scripts in a wiki might be every bit as frustrating as trying to build a human base when everyone has their own ideas on where to put everything.

I want to revert it back to the old version that was written in SCRIPT FORMAT. There was pacing and structure in my edit, and it made sense... I mean, how does human fighter #2 afford a chaingun after killing one dretch, and why does he painsaw rush if he can afford a chaingun?

Oh well, I will leave it alone for now and see what happens.

[Nosfore]

I edited the script in order to reduce its conceptual content. I never gave thought about the credit issue... I always had in mind we would start witch enough cash the shooting.

Is the cost of equipement an essential topic?
I mean, when you are acquainted to the fact that you must go to the armoury to get a new gun, you should be able to figure out yourself. There is a well explained menu with prompts.

[Nosfore]

Raumkraut: Thanks for correcting my mistakes. It is equipment and not "equipement". You are right! Being almost bilingual has downsides.

[Teiman]

PROBLEM DETECTED!!!

Will the dem file still work will the newer versions of Tremulous?

If not, will be need to make avi's before that, or force the dev's to backward support that videos :I , or update the dem files for new tremulous versions (maybe the better idea).

note:

Heh, I can see that writing the actual scripts in a wiki might be every bit as frustrating as trying to build a human base when everyone has their own ideas on where to put everything..

Indeed. The game as the console to sync ideas, and this wiki has this forum for discussion (or irc, or msn, or etc..)

[Nosfore]

PROBLEM DETECTED!!!

Will the dem file still work will the newer versions of Tremulous?

:eek:

I hope so... We need guidance.

[chompers]

Nosfore- no, the cost thing is not essential at all, it's just one example of an internal logical consistency that was in my draft that might not have been apparent, and isn't in the current draft. Another example is keeping the tutorial speaker the same player as the camera, since the position of the camera can not be seen by the Tutorial speaker, it will be easier to cue everything that way.

On cueing - ideally we will release them as .dm files rather than converting to video, and it looks like there aren't the demo editors for q3 that are used for editing machinima, so that means everything has to go right in a single take from the moment we start recording to the end of the demo - there's no swapping cameras from one location to another, but the camera can spectate through various players - but even there we should know the exact order that the spectator camera will cycle through the players.

Teiman that is a very good point, they will most likely have to be recorded in the same build as the next release, and will probably only work for that release.

[Nosfore]

Nosfore- no, the cost thing is not essential at all, it's just one example of an internal logical consistency that was in my draft that might not have been apparent, and isn't in the current draft. Another example is keeping the tutorial speaker the same player as the camera, since the position of the camera can not be seen by the Tutorial speaker, it will be easier to cue everything that way.

About logical consistency: I think it is an encumbering thing to carry on. How does that help to learn the game?

About the tutorial speaker: You are right. We should change that.

Also, after reading your post I have reworked the Goals and Limitations of the Script in the wiki. I think that if we are to work together, we need to agree on this. Could you have a look at it or change it for something better?

[KorJax]

Ok, im reading the basic's script, and i cant help notice you are leaving out some very good and important facts about the weaponry and evolution classes.

Is the basic's script supposed to leave out these facts, and leave the facts to an "advanced tactics" script, or just left out entirely for the player to figure out each weapons/evolutions disadvantage?

[Nosfore]

My opinion is that we should not attempt to explain everything.

Not only because it would be tedious and open to interpretation, but also because a demo presentation should not be long nor boring. It should be quick and effective enough to give the new players the most basic principles.

The rest they can discover by themselves.

However, an Advanced Tactics scene would be interesting.

[chompers]

Nosfore, in that specific instance of the chaingun, it helps by preventing "Hey, I just killed a dretch, how come I can't buy a chaingun, like I saw in the tutorial?" In general, keeping the tutorials close to the game where possible will prevent people inferring erroneous things from them.

Also, on keeping the demos as short as 30 seconds, I am of the opinion that the more we can cram into each demo the better. Consider that you have to load up a map to see a demo, would you rather load 10 maps to watch a series of 30 second shorts, or watch a single 5 minute crash-course jam packed with info?

That was some of the reasoning behind the original script  - it layered the game fundamentals with weapon and class fundamentals while not straying too far from a real game scenario, the builder switched to blaster while the armory built, the rifle guy saved him from a dretch, then used the armory, this is stuff that happens all the time, and it was a nice example of effective teamwork, which is something the tutorials really need to reinforce.

I can't complain, it was left unfinished so it's little suprise it was alterred, I guess I just would have preferred to see it expanded upon, rather than being changed into something less informative for reasons I don't understand. Maybe I shouldn't have posted a script until at least the whole scene was set out, but of course, I was too keen to get the ball rolling.

This all does point out one important issue, which is that maybe we should set down what each 'episode' deals with, for all episodes, before we start writing any of them, otherwise we'll be working with different goals.

Anyway, I'll go now and have another read through where it's at so far...

[Nosfore]

Nosfore, in that specific instance of the chaingun, it helps by preventing "Hey, I just killed a dretch, how come I can't buy a chaingun, like I saw in the tutorial?" In general, keeping the tutorials close to the game where possible will prevent people inferring erroneous things from them.

I get your point now. And it made me realize that erroneous inference is a thing we should avoid. It should be another goal for the script.

You are right, again!

Also, on keeping the demos as short as 30 seconds, I am of the opinion that the more we can cram into each demo the better. Consider that you have to load up a map to see a demo, would you rather load 10 maps to watch a series of 30 second shorts, or watch a single 5 minute crash-course jam packed with info?

When opinions diverges, it's a good thing to make them agree on advantages, disadvantages.

Separating into chapters have advantages:
1- Its easier to script and film.
2- Its easier to understand the concepts when they are treated separately.
3- You can choose where to start. As I understand it, the demo files have no fast-forward feature.

It has also disadvantages:
-You seem to make a point about loading time. Loading a map takes a maximum of 10 seconds (as far as my computer is concerned, and its not the best). So a ratio of 30 seconds demo versus 10 seconds load time is not ideal.

I would very much like your input on this.

That was some of the reasoning behind the original script  - it layered the game fundamentals with weapon and class fundamentals while not straying too far from a real game scenario, the builder switched to blaster while the armory built, the rifle guy saved him from a dretch, then used the armory, this is stuff that happens all the time, and it was a nice example of effective teamwork, which is something the tutorials really need to reinforce.

Teamwork. Teamwork. Teamwork.
We should have a part about Teamwork.

I can't complain, it was left unfinished so it's little suprise it was alterred, I guess I just would have preferred to see it expanded upon, rather than being changed into something less informative for reasons I don't understand. Maybe I shouldn't have posted a script until at least the whole scene was set out, but of course, I was too keen to get the ball rolling.

 :oops:

I'm sorry if it broke your heart. I won't do it again, I promise!

This all does point out one important issue, which is that maybe we should set down what each 'episode' deals with, for all episodes, before we start writing any of them, otherwise we'll be working with different goals.

Indeed. I have begun working on it. Separating topics. Look at the "Game Mechanics" section.

[chompers]

Haha, don't worry about my poor little heart, I'm not precious about these things.

On the game mechanics wiki pages, it seems a bit too 'meta' to seperate them all out like that. Should be quite possible to set out a list of goals for each tutorial without resorting to seperate pages.

On 30 secs vs 5 minutes, I am sure we can reach some compromise there. It should be a function of the subject at hand, if it takes only 30 seconds to explain a particular thing then so be it, if it takes 5 minutes, then it takes 5 minutes. Of course, you are right that shorter scenarios will be easier to produce. The vision I have for the finished product is maybe 6 demos in total, with only one of those covering the basics. I am in favour of showing more advanced topics also, particularly the well coordinated human base move, that demo could even span two games, showing a move gone wrong that ends in an alien win after 2 minutes, and then a successfull move, probably to the center room on ATCS.

[Nosfore]

On the game mechanics wiki pages, it seems a bit too 'meta' to seperate them all out like that. Should be quite possible to set out a list of goals for each tutorial without resorting to seperate pages.

Fixed.

On 30 secs vs 5 minutes, I am sure we can reach some compromise there. It should be a function of the subject at hand, if it takes only 30 seconds to explain a particular thing then so be it, if it takes 5 minutes, then it takes 5 minutes. Of course, you are right that shorter scenarios will be easier to produce.

Agreed.
Most basic concepts should be part of short demo.
Advanced concepts could be longer.

The vision I have for the finished product is maybe 6 demos in total, with only one of those covering the basics. I am in favour of showing more advanced topics also, particularly the well coordinated human base move, that demo could even span two games, showing a move gone wrong that ends in an alien win after 2 minutes, and then a successfull move, probably to the center room on ATCS.

I think we should really focus on doing it for the first time. A short one. Then we will be able to judge how long is too long.

[chompers]

Yep I agree there, let's get one done and see. maybe the Introduction one is a bad place to start because it really is the one that requires the most scripting.

An easier place to start would be 'Kicking 10 kinds of ass with a Dretch'

Camera only needs to follow one dretch around and give some commentary on things like how much damage a headshot does, while the dretch rapes a bunch of humans.

I would like to hear from a dev about this. It would be pointless for us to do all this if there is no intention of including it in an official release, the target audience (ie. UnnamedPlayer) is not going to find it if it ends up as some video on YouTube or whatever. Plus there is the whole issue with demos working across different versions.

[Nosfore]

Play
->Tutorial
Mod
About

The only Tremulous Developer that participated in this thread was Dolby. He seemed please with the idea and proposed to contribute for sound effects.

If, maybe, we had an endorsement from two Tremulous Developer we could consider that it is a viable project. Surely they have condition to impose: lenght, file size, colors, whatever.

I think the actual draft of the first script presenting Alien Evolving and Human Equipement could be done on our first run. It has many things we need to test, but is still short and easy.

[next_ghost]

A little change in the script and game logic will no longer be violated :wink:

About response from devs, Timbo seems to be on vacation. We'll have to wait until he returns.

[Nosfore]

Yes I saw what changes you made.

Good thinking. Good job.

If we are motivated enough, and find someone to host, we could have a sample of what we want to achieve before he gets back from vacation.

Who wants to host?

[PIE]

Thought that was basically taken care of.

Count the SATGNU crew in, we already toyed with this idea. We even toyed with the idea of holding open Tutorial nights on SATGNU, for new players willing to learn.

[Checkpoint]

I might be able to do that, we'll see.

Or use specially crafted config files with text already mapped to specific keys.

If you can teach me to do that, I might be able to do it.

[chompers]

Anyone with a decent home connection could host a server for this, it only needs to be up for a little while. I'll host it, if people don't mind the 350ish pings to Australia from just about anywhere else.

The config files will be simple enough, someone who already uses exec to load their binds should do it, so that nobody's binds are ruined in the process. You'll type something like /exec script1binds.cfg in console and it will replace binds, something like this:

bind 1 "say Welcome to Tremulous"
bind 2 "say This short tutorial should familiarize you with the game"
bind 3 "say Doh, I forgot my line..."

And so on, then in game it's as simple as pressing 1 - 2 - 3 at the right time.

[PIE]

bind 1 "say_team SOMETHING"
bind 2 "say SOMETHING ELSE!!"

essentially

bind *KEY* "say(_team) TEXT"
team = your team.. obviously.. which might be neat for cues?

Someone needs to write a bind tutorial and sticky it..

[next_ghost]

I've got something better, a shell script that will grep all announcer messages and make the config out of them

Code: [Select]

#! /bin/bash
# Convert Tremulous tutorial demo script to announcer say binds
if [ $# -lt 1 ] ; then
echo "Usage: $0 inputfile";
exit;
fi

cat $1 | grep -i 'announcer' | head -n 1 |
sed 's/^.*\(announcer\).*$/seta name "\1"/I';

cat $1 | grep -i 'announcer' | sed 's/^.*announcer:[[:blank:]]*//I' |
awk 'BEGIN { i = 1 } END { print "set asay" i " \"set asay vstr asay1\"" } { print "set asay" i " \"say "$0"; set asay vstr asay" ++i "\"" }';

echo "set asay \"vstr asay1\"";
echo "bind p \"vstr asay\"";


Required tools:
grep, head, GNU sed (it has case-insensitive regexp match extension used in the script), awk, cat, bash

Copy the demo script to some file, run this shell script on that file and redirect the output to Tremulous config file (eg. ~/.tremulous/base/announcer.cfg). Then run Tremulous, exec the config file (type '/exec announcer.cfg' without apostrophes into the game console) and then by repeatedly pressing P, you'll say each line. When another keypress doesn't say anything, you've said the last line and you'll start from the first line again by another keypress.

[fourchannel]

Man that is awesome. Good Job!

[Checkpoint]

I want a part in this.

[Nosfore]

Code: [Select]

#! /bin/bash
# Convert Tremulous tutorial demo script to announcer say binds
if [ $# -lt 1 ] ; then
echo "Usage: $0 inputfile";
exit;
fi

cat $1 | grep -i 'announcer' | head -n 1 |
sed 's/^.*\(announcer\).*$/seta name "\1"/I';

cat $1 | grep -i 'announcer' | sed 's/^.*announcer:[[:blank:]]*//I' |
awk 'BEGIN { i = 1 } END { print "set asay" i " \"set asay vstr asay1\"" } { print "set asay" i " \"say "$0"; set asay vstr asay" ++i "\"" }';

echo "set asay \"vstr asay1\"";
echo "bind p \"vstr asay\"";


You know what? I had exactly that in mind when I retyped the script. I took care to use the same orthograph in order to grep it easily. But this sed/awk thing is even better!

I'm amazed at how easy you can do things like that in a shell.

Not a single day do I regret ditching Windows.

Thanks a lot!

[Nosfore]

I want a part in this.

Ready to shoot sathurday?

[Checkpoint]

Shoot Saturday you mean?

And wtf is that?

[Nosfore]

Shoot Saturday you mean?

And wtf is that?

I'll translate.

"Are you ready to record a scene this weekend on saturn's day?"
"Or maybe on sun's day?"

[vcxzet]

Shoot Saturday you mean?

And wtf is that?

I'll translate.

"Are you ready to record a scene this weekend on saturn's day?"
"Or maybe on sun's day?"

 :roll:

[StVald]

I dont think anyone answered how we can make demo files of trem... Ill get to adding a script on the wiki for basic alien survival which covers a dretch's tactics:
-zig zagging
-turning around the prey, and attacking from side or back
-wall walking
-headshots