Author Topic: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points  (Read 7938 times)

scrape

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While I feel 1.2 is nearly complete, and Defense Computers and the hovel need a second look, there is something else
that I feel needs addressed...

1)
Recommendation: Repeaters should be stage 2 or dretches should be able to damage structures or
some other option. Please read further, my reasoning is this:


Stage 1 humans can destroy aliens structures immediately, however it takes several encounters with
humans before aliens have acquired enough evolves to dismantle this (mostly forward) base. At this point,
the humans are now camping in this base, more likely than not, at the front door of the alien base.

The side effects initially are, the human get fed to stage 2 at an accelerated rate. Now if the aliens are incapable
of dealing with this forward after 3-5 minutes of game time have elapsed (from start), the humans are now stage 2, with
the aliens several *frags* away. At this point, come the grenades, being launched against a mostly stage 1 alien base,
from a very close base position.

[sidenote: It should be noted, an alien forward base at anytime is a risk, and only used when the human team is
camping, since the alien equivalent of the repeater is also a spawn, and can cause feeding the other team. Aliens
really need a structure to extend creep without being a spawn. But is a more complex suggestion, so I will omit it
here.]


I personally think this is the case of humans appearing, at some points to be *easier* than aliens, or aliens nerf'd
\humans buffed. When both teams are stage 2, 1.2 feels very balanced gameplay wise, however I think this intial biased
in base mobility and the ability to dismantle bases is having a negative effect.

This is from my last 100 hours of alien play, and many times, in the beginning stages, it feels like surviving the human
wave, in order to reach stage 2, for the *real* game to begin. After both teams reach stage 2, the feeling of attrition
against a human horde lessens dramatically, so in my opinion this change will make stage 1, more competitive and less of a
*shooting gallery at the door*.

Benefits of this change: The time of stage 1 for both teams become a test of teamwork, builder skill, and player
skill and not an unexpected advantage that one team must survive against.


2)
My old complaint about grenades(&psaw), now after nearly 900+ games after, I feel that my problems were not with the
grenade itself but with Reactor and Overmind health points.While grenades are devasting with A1vsH2 (and my above
mentioned issues, that cause A1vsH2 states) I found it was the hp of the teams primary structures themselves that was
the core of my opinion about overpowered weapon combos.

The reactor and overmind should require a team effort to bring it down in a short period of time. Currently, the
overmind can be brought down by 1 human player in 4 seconds, with a painsaw and grenade. However, aliens cannot bring the
reactor down in this same span (solo), but its offset by the overmind's ability to regenerate health.

Recommendation: Increase the health points of the Reactor and Overmind, that in the period of 4-8 seconds, it cannot
be destroyed by a single  player.


In closing, I make my suggestions with sincerity, as I enjoy playing tremulous greatly and would prefer to play
competitive games. Some of the best games, are the hard fought give and take, with moments of one team coming back from
the brink of defeat. No one enjoys 5 minute gang rapes, tremor anyone? :D

Lecavalier

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 12:43:10 am »
I strongly agree eith your first point, simply because I have seen it happen too many times to count  :'(

Something I've heard other players mention that I think may work is go back to the old repeater, just a thought  :repeater:
I wanted you to see me before I killed you.

Plague Bringer

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 01:45:12 am »
I like the idea of increasing the OM's health but I also like the potential single humans have to take out the alien base. :|
U R A Q T

Saliva

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 02:11:17 am »
I can't say I have played many games that develop like you describe in your first point unless I'm the builder and supported with teammates that know what they are doing. I mostly play on the europe server though so maybe things are different on the us server.

In that scenario I think the problem is that dretches can't stop humans from expanding because they are vastly outclassed by the rifle. Even a builder is a threat to dretches. If the dretches could damage structures it wouldn't change much because aliens need more powerful classes to be able to reliably kill humans and destroy the forward base. Of course the repeaters could be made unavailable at s1 but changing the dretch instead would solve a lot of other problems as well. The dretch should be improved so it's not too weak at start and especially later in the game when humans are s2-s3. What is right about the rifle is that it's never useless, it's good enough against anything at any stage. You can't really say the same about the dretch.

I don't agree with the second point because it would make the main structures not be as important to protect anymore. In most cases it would be easier to destroy other buildings instead. Also often it can be destroyed by one player only if the base is poorly defended.

F50

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 02:58:27 am »
The problem with repeaters not being available until stage 2 is that it lessens the ability of the humans to move the reactor in stage 1. On some maps, this can be critical. However, rifles do have an annoying ability to hold down a hallway near the alien base to increase their stage, which most certainly can become a problem. Perhaps the problem really is with the dretch.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 08:26:32 pm by F50 »
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice." -- Grey's Law


F50

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 02:59:07 am »
hmmm, it seems I pressed quote instead of modify...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 08:26:55 pm by F50 »
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice." -- Grey's Law


mooseberry

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 03:20:02 am »
The problem with repeaters not being available until stage 2 is that it lessens the ability of the humans to move the reactor in stage 1. On some maps, this can be critical. However, rifles do have an annoying ability to hold down a hallway near the alien base to increase their stage, which most certainly can become a problem. Perhaps the problem really is with the dretch.

Interesting way to make your point...
Bucket: [You hear the distant howl of a coyote losing at Counterstrike.]

मैं हिन्दी का समर्थन

~Mooseberry.

Meisseli

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 12:42:52 pm »
I don't think the overmind is so easy to take down as you say. If a single painsaw can outrun the whole alien base the base is flawed. Barricades and tubes should be used better to not make that possible.

I think it's the dretch too. Rifle is really a powerful weapon all the time but the dretch is always at a major disadvantage.

Conzul

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 04:41:13 pm »
The Dretch is both overvalued and miss-used.

scrape

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 10:07:36 pm »
I don't think the overmind is so easy to take down as you say. If a single painsaw can outrun the whole alien base the base is flawed. Barricades and tubes should be used better to not make that possible.

I think it's the dretch too. Rifle is really a powerful weapon all the time but the dretch is always at a major disadvantage.

You can ninja past a barricade forest, but not normally needed, since the grenade chucker 3 seconds before me, blew them
all to hell  :P However I have killed an overmind, with a zoo of aliens around me all taking a bite. I get enough damage
done with the painsaw, that when I am dead, my grenade finishes the deed. While originally I thought this was the result
of the painsaw and grenade being an overpowered combo, I'm now leaning toward overmind and reactor health. I just believe
the health should be:

Overmind Health == best human dps combo (at stage 2) for 8? seconds.
Something I didn't consider before, lessen the regen of the overmind. So it will come down, but not in one solo assault.

I make a point to say stage 2, because nothing applies to stage 3. Stage 3 is designed to be overpowered to
end the game, its obvious stage 3 items are not intended to do anything but be the endgame.

Question:
But would this increase in overmind or reactor health just make it a structure no one assaults? And players just targeting
spawns instead of om\rc? (Or making it a structure that isn't defended so as much)

Well, I still see them at important structures to bring down, humans have no power, jets come crashing to earth, aliens can
no longer evolve. Its still something to take down, to prevent a granger hunt, turning into a rant army. As to the question
it will not be defended as much, I hope so, less camping and more alien vs dancing duels are what make trem fun.

I'm probably totally wrong on my beliefs about overmind and reactor health, but I personally don't care for the camping,
that fragile primary structures seem to cause. I personally love to play basi, and camping shuts my fun down.

About dretches and my 1):
I do see the problem with the new turrets and giving them the ability to damage the new turrets so as a solution and comprise:

Could dretches just be able to damage repeaters only, so the new slow turrets can still take out these dretches, but
the alien team has an option, without the intial feed a forward base results in?

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 10:49:38 pm »
If humans can even reach OM, then the alien base has already failed, and so have the aliens. If you manage to survive next to it for 8 seconds, then the aliens deserve to lose the OM, and deserve to either lose the game or work extra hard to rebuild. I don't think RC/OM are too weak, nor do I think that is what is causing camp. You could give all human buildables 1000 hp, and some noobs would still keep camping.

With domination you could force teams to spread out and camp several Domination Points (IMO there should be 8+ per map) with a lot less campers each. That way, the more aggressive team could focus their attack on a single target and have a good chance of taking it down, thus keeping the game more dynamic and less boring. Of course there has to be an incentive to actually care about the DPs: make them give a small amount of locally usable bps, and a very slow, but steady income of funds. If a team has only 1-2 domination points left, they can have all campers in 1 area, but the enemy team can still keep attacking without ending up as all dretches/rifles.

Camping at end of long hallways wouldn't work since aliens can just ignore you, capture some DPs, and come back with a goon-swarm.

Conzul

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2010, 10:58:05 pm »
Domination sounds good, but not as a replacement for the existing game mode. I've never played it though, I like king of the hill variants.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 11:18:40 pm »
Wouldn't king of the hill just be same camp in a different location?

Conzul

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2010, 12:46:24 am »
Wouldn't king of the hill just be same camp in a different location?

The idea is to occupy as many "hill" areas or "domination" areas as possible to get points, is it not?

Meisseli

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2010, 04:36:47 pm »
Domination has been tried and it just makes people camp the domination points and not actually go destroy the opponent team's base.

Conzul

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2010, 06:37:13 pm »
What if somehow it were made like Titan Mode in Battlefield 2142? The Domination areas only mean something till the team reaches, say, staqe 3. Then, they should either attack the enemy to hinder their stage developement, or build up their main base. Maybe, stages should not progress with anything but domination points.

jez

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 06:52:06 pm »
+1 for domination points as a source of credits/evos. Not so fussed on them granting extra bp.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 01:29:50 am »
Meisseli: if you are talking about risujin's domination, then that only had UP TO 4 dom points in layouts, which is basically not domination at all. Maybe there is a way to place more with that mod, but I haven't seen it done. If there is another implementation, I'd like to see it. With 4 dom points each team only needs to camp 2 of them, and there is barely any change at all. With 8+, you'd have your team spread really thin, making successful camping a lot more difficult.
jez: there would be 20-40 bp per dom point (60 in extreme situations), depending on how difficult it is to control that location.

Meisseli

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 01:33:28 am »
I doubt there's any way you could make a successful domination on a map like ATCS for example, Uniq.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 01:42:46 am »
Well on atcs you can spread campers between 2 places instead of 1 at least, and you can have 2 dps on different halves of bases, which makes 1 more difficult to control. But that's about it. Luckily most maps are bigger then atcs.

Meisseli

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Re: Observations on, Stage 1 base mobility and RC\OM health points
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2010, 02:30:52 am »
Well on atcs you can spread campers between 2 places instead of 1 at least, and you can have 2 dps on different halves of bases, which makes 1 more difficult to control. But that's about it. Luckily most maps are bigger then atcs.
Yes, like the humans aren't camping the tunnel already, now it would become madness.

I challenge you then to code domination. Been arguing about this so long already, we need concrete proof that there exists domination that actually works.