Author Topic: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.  (Read 26227 times)

FisherP

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I bet however that there's more people in the community that can help with the sounds than the models. Currently I believe I'm the only one who's done anything to help the sound issues (please prove me wrong).

SlackerLinux

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The models aren't finished either.

and after the models the cgame/game/hud isnt finished(atleast in regards to voip)
Slackware64 13.1
SlackersQVM/

iRa`

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Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind.
No sense in going into detail without anything fit for public consumption, which there won't be until after 1.2 is released, if ever.



:(

nubcake

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The problem isnt the balance, its just that generally, gamers who play FPS areDUMB. The only reason aliens win is because humans are DUMB.

Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen? Once in a hundred games or in a scrim. Thats all.

Example 2: How many times have you killed the entire human base minus, say, an armory a node and RC. When you say 'no retts, all nakeds, rush' how often do you see people camping with rants around the corner? They could win the game then and there, but they are DUMB

Example 3: How easy is it on a map like ATCS to goon pounce the RC when humans are rushing? I have ended countless games where humans are rushing down the hall by simply gooning through the middle onto the RC and gg'ing it. How often do I see that happen? On the server I play on, it happens ONLY if a very good player is on. So rarely.

@Norf and co, those game type are a possibilty already with clever mapping. But because the game is dying, no one WANTS to map for Tremulous anymore. The devs have simply not done anything to keep it alive. A new weapon, a new official map, a new alien class. ANYTHING to spark interest was left behind.


So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.





mooseberry

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Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen? Once in a hundred games or in a scrim. Thats all.

I really don't understand what this has to do with anything. How is a team of chainsuits killing a team of aliens dumb? And if it's a team of rants, I have seen it happen plenty of times.

So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.

Tremulous forgot to shave this morning?
Bucket: [You hear the distant howl of a coyote losing at Counterstrike.]

मैं हिन्दी का समर्थन

~Mooseberry.

nubcake

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Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen? Once in a hundred games or in a scrim. Thats all.

I really don't understand what this has to do with anything. How is a team of chainsuits killing a team of aliens dumb? And if it's a team of rants, I have seen it happen plenty of times.

So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.

s forgot to shave this morning?

Im saying its not dumb, im saying its very smart. Hence why it doesnt happen very often. A team of rants is different, because aliens wont camp, humans do. When humans do come out, its 1 - 5 at a time with no plan, yet when they use a plan, they almost always win

Aelita

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Tremulous forgot to shave this morning?

+sig

F50

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The only reason aliens win is because humans are DUMB.
So in scrims, when the aliens win its a fluke? I find this hard to believe.

Quote
Example 1: I have never, in 3 years of playing trem, seen a team of chainsuits lose to a team of aliens. Ever. How often do you see it happen?
So? Multiple chainsuits are very good at sucking the other team dry of evos. And if the humans manage to get a significant cash imbalance in their favor, they deserve to win. Thus in this situation the aliens must either conserve evos (by camping or sniping), irreparably damage the human base, or die. So yes, unless its a team of rants, yes you won't it happen very often. What is your point? The aliens have to prevent this unfavorable situation or deal with it when it comes. So what?

A team of rants is different, because aliens wont camp.
Quote
When you say 'no retts, all nakeds, rush' how often do you see people camping with rants around the corner?
*sigh*
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice." -- Grey's Law


Nux

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So as V would say, if you want to know the problems of this (tremulous) world, you only need to look in the mirror.

Quote from: V
How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror

V was a lot more exact in his wording. It's some peoples fault more than others. Since the devs know the 'guts' of the game better I'd say they are in the best position to keep the game going or else let it die.

StevenM

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And yet, against all odds, aliens seem to win more games than humans ATM. . . .

If you actually look at recent data, the only place where this holds ture, is the european development server. Looking at the US server, when there are a meaningful amount of players on, humans tend to win more, overall. That being said, if baybal is playing on the US server, his impression of the balance isnt necessarily wrong. So the EU server tends to skew the general data, leaving an important question? Whats the reason for the discrepancy? I believe it's  the different gameplay styles, but who cares really, tremulous in the general sense in dead when you compare it to 2006.

probably another reason why the data is useless.....

Meisseli

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And yet, against all odds, aliens seem to win more games than humans ATM. . . .

If you actually look at recent data, the only place where this holds ture, is the european development server. Looking at the US server, when there are a meaningful amount of players on, humans tend to win more, overall. That being said, if baybal is playing on the US server, his impression of the balance isnt necessarily wrong. So the EU server tends to skew the general data, leaving an important question? Whats the reason for the discrepancy? I believe it's  the different gameplay styles, but who cares really, tremulous in the general sense in dead when you compare it to 2006.

probably another reason why the data is useless.....
Not true, if you draw a line in the middle in the US graph to see how it corresponds, only with 25 players is it 100% balanced (and even then humans do not win more overall, only after 27 or so). I would say that's already way more than a "meaningful amount of players", that's a very large amount of players.

Both servers have a meaningful amount of more alien wins too: 2204 compared to 1787 in EU, 2149 compared to 1970 in US. Together, 4353 - 3757, or in percentages, 53,7% - 46,3%. I think that's a significant figure too: balance needs a bit fixing.

I guess the differences between the servers can be explained with just different players and different preference of teams between each server's "good players".
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 04:33:31 pm by Meisseli »

jm82792

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The mapping system is very painful.
If we could get an export script that made the output from Blender somewhat intelligible as a map then we could get somewhere. There would be a flood of maps however there would be some real gems.
The hurdles would include exporting a non chopped up mesh,
UV maps so we can easily fit the 3 MB textures in Blender then export then finally make it so we can fix it up in GTK.

 

nubcake

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So in scrims, when the aliens win its a fluke? I find this hard to believe.

If you read anything I said, I told you that in scrims people DO use tactics, in public games they dont.

Quote
So? Multiple chainsuits are very good at sucking the other team dry of evos. And if the humans manage to get a significant cash imbalance in their favor, they deserve to win. Thus in this situation the aliens must either conserve evos (by camping or sniping), irreparably damage the human base, or die. So yes, unless its a team of rants, yes you won't it happen very often. What is your point? The aliens have to prevent this unfavorable situation or deal with it when it comes. So what?

So what? Ummmmmmm the entire point of the thread, you know, that its 'unfavourable for this or that team'. My points being clearly laid out that you cant blame the balance, but the players themselves.




A team of rants is different, because aliens wont camp.
Quote
When you say 'no retts, all nakeds, rush' how often do you see people camping with rants around the corner?
*sigh*
[/quote]

Yes, SIIIIIGH. You sound like one of those people ive just posted about. There is a difference between camping in hall and camping in base. Especially during a rush







FisherP

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I definitely agree that play style has a big factor in the balance. One other thing to note, is that the way 1.2 is suppose to be played is different than 1.1. Have the people in the EU caught up with this. I would think that the people playing in the US would be taking note of the way Norf and the other Dev's are playing, and adjust their style to suit.

As for nubcakes comments, I would agree that play styles in clan games is a lot different than open public play. In clan games, there is real strategy, the type that's seldom seen on public servers. I suppose it would be interesting to see how the changes play out in a clan game.

Regarding the slow death of trem, I think there's two aspects, 1) the devs really should do more regular, smaller, official releases of updates. and 2) the community itself has the tendency to be .... abrasive (to put it mildly).

Meisseli

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Humans do win a lot more in at least 1.1 clangames, they are the superior team where teamwork is available.

I've played only a few GPP scrims and it does seem though that aliens are more able to win than in 1.1. Also it's a hell lot more fun to scrim in GPP with reduced camping and cool new building system for humans.

CorSair

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I'll boot my opinion on this matter.

Firstly, there is always some people who like to make own mods. Wether it is just models, or something that affects gameplay. I too, would be eager to make own mod, but currently, my skills are insufficient to this (coding and modeling and such lot of work, that consumes time) and I got limited time to learn these. And plus, you need to balance sides, so someone/something is powerful in specified matter, but sucks in other part or two.

Secondly, I would like Tremulous to be like shaped diamond. No errors, no ugly scratches, and looks pretty. I can't, or someone else, to change devs minds, but we can express our opinion, and see what it brings.

But enough of that. That goes to offtopic, and boots the real meaning of this topic.

I think this GPP version is more to tactics than good 'ol 1.1. Alien buildings are bit more challenge, especially the hives when you try to corner shot them. And what i've noticed, as i'm usually bit loner type, or folks drop off from alien assault, I get my ass kicked, almost always. Even as humans got good amount of stamina, reflexive dodges aint much help of dude who learned to control goon properly, and learned few tricks to kill evasive humans.

1.: Me thinks that lucifer was bit overpowered on 1.1. In GPP, the legendary luci jump is almost useless now.... plus to add 3 second charge time (varies of user), that is very painful time to charge. Aliens can in second rip you, once you get them on your sight (or see in radar on next corner if you got that crappy luck.)

2.: Pulse was bit overpowered too. 75 shots (battpack, of course) on one clip is waaayyy too large. And besides, I don't think that 15 shots here or there don't give much pain...

3.: Too mobile? Lemme give bit thinking. We humans in real life got quite good reflexes, and when trained, you react before you can blink your eye. Maybe little bit exaggerated, but it is something like this. If we don't got reflexes, there would be more dead people on world. And if we think the Trem's humans would be soldiers trained to fend off and kill aliens, I think they should be trained to avoid fast alien attacks.
And besides, it gives nice and interesting one vs one fights.

4.: I don't want to change chaingun at the moment. If i would change, make chaingun more accurate on long range and bit smaller damage. And make other type of chaingun, named minigun. Shoots faster, sprays lot of bullets on medium range. And even more recoil. But, just my "brilliant" ideas again.

5.: Hmmmhmmm. I don't say nothing on this matter, I leave it as it is for now.

6.: Contrary on my opinion. I think weapon and alien models and sounds should be secondary, and improve the old one with new rules, abilities, tactics and differences. And if there would be Tremulous 2.0, i think that should give something new.

.:note:.
And I haven't seen three weeks of anything, or didn't even got time visit the forums.