Author Topic: A message to trem developers: 1.2 changes bring a problem of misconception.  (Read 26228 times)

baybal

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1.2 is gonna bring a lot of changes. And I think that in 1.2 developers have made changes that span afar from balance changes, although all the work done yet were labelled as game balancing. In comparison to 0.9, 1.0 and subsequently 1.1 it feels like a different game, as the gameplay now became really unjustifiably dependant on camping for aliens and play of master players for human, who score like half of team frags as now a lone skilled human player can confront the whole opposing alien team.

What I see here is a misconception towards the original idea of tremulous, where humans score kills through teamwork and sophisticated tactics, with aliens do the same through rough outnumbering and individual combat. There are few points which I found to be disturbing in this aspect in upcoming 1.2: 1. Just genocidal super-mega luci cannon; 2. pulse rifle changes; 3 Improved human mobility; 4. chaingun RoF; 5. Rant weakness; 6. The fact that other weapons/classes were left unadjusted.

1. Current power (after the fourth stage) of luci cannon makes it possible for a skilled player just to go to alien base alone, destroy or heavily damage it and whack everything on its way here. Alien base is to weak against it; one luciball is totally enough to kill any alien defence structure and its even worse when the map doesn't give any opportunity other than just to stack all defence around one place. A good luci shooter is virtually invincible, unless there like 2 rants confronting in the open field with 1 rant inevitably dying in case of human wearing suit. In all other scenarios, the probability of human luci user dying is like 1 in 100.

As I understand, originally luci was devised as a futuristic alternative for real world's grenade launchers/recoilless cannons/RPGs that takes a lot to prepare a shot, but inflicts brings a tremendous amount of destruction in a single shot. What we have now is human players shooting it all around almost like handgun. A most basic solution that I can see here is to make luci to charge longer and eat a lot of energy to do make a blast comparable to grenade. Also, it would be nice to have recoil knocking the gunner back if he shoot while standing.

2. Pulse rifle now feels like a different gun than it was in 1.0. As I can remember, PR in its original concept was designed after Q3's plasmagun. A gun with moderate damage, but high rate of fire that depletes its ammunition rapidly. But now it feels almost like a real world's machine gun from some kind of combat simulator or MG42 from like DoD.

3. Humans are too mobile in 1.2. Stamina was reduced to a state that game simply does not depend on it any more. Humans sprint straight to alien base without brakes, strafe around goon and rants like mad rats outspeeding dretches. I personally now adopted to 1.2 style strafes and take almost no damage unless there are really a lot of aliens. I found it a misconception. Humans weren't originally devised to be so superhumanly fast like in Q3.

4. Chaingun RoF is too small for multi barrel weapon now. It was way slow in 1.1 and now even smaller. First, it feels totally unrealistic. And secondly, its current rate of fire allows it to fire for almost 1 minute continuously.

My suggestion here is to revert it back to ~1000-1200 rps, but keep damage the same as of machine gun. So it would still be an efficient weapon, but will deplete ammo in case of too much of suppressive fire.

5. Rant is really weak now. It could have been a justified change to either lower rant's damage, or either lower its hp, or make human weapons more powerful, but having all of the above inflicted altogether just screws the original gameplay.

6. Finally, it's strange to see so much of attention given to big guns, leaving other aspects of game in cold. What I can advise here for developers is to devote 1.2 for bug fixing/package maintenance and to leave big changes for something like 2.0. It will make the game feel more complete, solid and much less amateurish. The problem with 1.2 now is that it adds too much of gameplay changes, while adding nothing new into the game.

Conzul

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And yet, against all odds, aliens seem to win more games than humans ATM. . . .

mooseberry

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tl;dr =  ???
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Crava_Loft

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 12:28:50 pm by Crava_Loft »

UniqPhoeniX

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Have you even played the game? I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
... the gameplay now became really unjustifiably dependant on camping for aliens and play of master players for human, who score like half of team frags as now a lone skilled human player can confront the whole opposing alien team.
I don't know what to say about this. It's like we've been playing different games. In my experience the gameplay is waaay better then in 1.1, and there is less camping from either team, while a few master players still can't win in humans alone if teams are balanced.
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1. Just genocidal super-mega luci cannon
1. Current power (after the fourth stage) of luci cannon makes it possible for a skilled player just to go to alien base alone, destroy or heavily damage it and whack everything on its way here. Alien base is to weak against it; one luciball is totally enough to kill any alien defence structure and its even worse when the map doesn't give any opportunity other than just to stack all defence around one place. A good luci shooter is virtually invincible, unless there like 2 rants confronting in the open field with 1 rant inevitably dying in case of human wearing suit. In all other scenarios, the probability of human luci user dying is like 1 in 100.

As I understand, originally luci was devised as a futuristic alternative for real world's grenade launchers/recoilless cannons/RPGs that takes a lot to prepare a shot, but inflicts brings a tremendous amount of destruction in a single shot. What we have now is human players shooting it all around almost like handgun. A most basic solution that I can see here is to make luci to charge longer and eat a lot of energy to do make a blast comparable to grenade. Also, it would be nice to have recoil knocking the gunner back if he shoot while standing.
Fourth stage?? If you make it to alien base alone without taking significant damage, then aliens suck or you got lucky. If aliens sneak up on the luci, they can do quite a bit of damage even before the luci fires the first time. I've killed plenty of them, they are nowhere near invincible. Can you (or do you know anyone who can) demonstrate the getting to alien base alone after whacking everything on the way and heavily damaging it part reliably? And +goons/+maras can destroy human base even faster than a luci in undefended alien base. If you build in a place where you have to cluster defences then you suck at building, it's not supposed to be possible to pile all defences at the single entrance and then go make some tea for yourself. Luci charges slower, has less ammo, secondary has half RoF, how the hell can you 'shoot it all around almost like handgun' now if you couldn't in 1.1???
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2. pulse rifle changes
2. Pulse rifle now feels like a different gun than it was in 1.0. As I can remember, PR in its original concept was designed after Q3's plasmagun. A gun with moderate damage, but high rate of fire that depletes its ammunition rapidly. But now it feels almost like a real world's machine gun from some kind of combat simulator or MG42 from like DoD.
3 Improved human mobility
The rate of fire is same, projectile speed has increased only 20 %, clip size is even smaller. And Trem is not Q3, nor does it need any copy/pasted weapons from it.Which of the following changes are you complaining about?
# cost increased 400 -> 450
# clip size reduced 50 -> 40
# max clips increased 4 -> 5
# projectile speed increased 1000 -> 1200
# projectile volume 10 cubed

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3. Humans are too mobile in 1.2. Stamina was reduced to a state that game simply does not depend on it any more. Humans sprint straight to alien base without brakes, strafe around goon and rants like mad rats outspeeding dretches. I personally now adopted to 1.2 style strafes and take almost no damage unless there are really a lot of aliens. I found it a misconception. Humans weren't originally devised to be so superhumanly fast like in Q3.
Afaik human sprinting ability has not changed significantly. Dodge was added and can be used ~3 times in most fights if you don't spend stamina before. Dretches were made faster, afaik sprint wasn't.
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4. chaingun RoF
4. Chaingun RoF is too small for multi barrel weapon now. It was way slow in 1.1 and now even smaller. First, it feels totally unrealistic. And secondly, its current rate of fire allows it to fire for almost 1 minute continuously.

My suggestion here is to revert it back to ~1000-1200 rps, but keep damage the same as of machine gun. So it would still be an efficient weapon, but will deplete ammo in case of too much of suppressive fire.
RoF has not changed.
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5. Rant weakness
5. Rant is really weak now. It could have been a justified change to either lower rant's damage, or either lower its hp, or make human weapons more powerful, but having all of the above inflicted altogether just screws the original gameplay.
Rant can kill a human in < 1s with trample, 2-3 humans in ~3-6 sec if the player is lucky or very good. Even 2-3 skilled players can't always kill a single good rant. Also has crush.
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6. The fact that other weapons/classes were left unadjusted
6. Finally, it's strange to see so much of attention given to big guns, leaving other aspects of game in cold. What I can advise here for developers is to devote 1.2 for bug fixing/package maintenance and to leave big changes for something like 2.0. It will make the game feel more complete, solid and much less amateurish. The problem with 1.2 now is that it adds too much of gameplay changes, while adding nothing new into the game.
Pretty much every single class/weapon/buildable has been adjusted, most of them significantly.
Now please don't post about 1.2 gameplay until you've read thru all the changes and played it for at least a month or 2. And by playing I mean more then once a week.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:13:31 am by UniqPhoeniX »

jez

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+1 to pretty much everything uniq said. I wouldn't mind a tyrant buff, but I don't play that class much (prefering +mara/+goon), so don't really feel well qualified to comment.

You want chainsuits to run out of ammo faster? :/ That doesn't sound fun.

Also, if a human sprints/dodges all the way to the alien base (or even most of the way), he will run out of stamina. This places him at a huge disadvantage in combat if (when) he should run into an alien. Taking on goons without a couple of pounces under your belt is a recipe for disaster. In short, if you're getting away with sprinting all the way to the enemy base, the aliens are doing it wrong.

As for point 6, what's wrong with refining the gameplay you have (to create imo a much more fun game), rather than just overloading the game with fancy graphics and MOAR NU STUFFZ?

Meisseli

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Play the game more.
1. Current power (after the fourth stage) of luci cannon makes it possible for a skilled player just to go to alien base alone, destroy or heavily damage it and whack everything on its way here. Alien base is to weak against it; one luciball is totally enough to kill any alien defence structure and its even worse when the map doesn't give any opportunity other than just to stack all defence around one place. A good luci shooter is virtually invincible, unless there like 2 rants confronting in the open field with 1 rant inevitably dying in case of human wearing suit. In all other scenarios, the probability of human luci user dying is like 1 in 100.
Luci was nerfed for base-killing. It takes more time to destroy OM, egg or anything else with it now. Also can't just spam it that much, dretches have an easier time killing lucis.
5. Rant is really weak now. It could have been a justified change to either lower rant's damage, or either lower its hp, or make human weapons more powerful, but having all of the above inflicted altogether just screws the original gameplay.
Rant is way more fun and not that boring class you get in S3 anymore. Takes more skill and if you just master the trample you will be better than a 1.1 rant.

So I'm pretty confused why wouldn't you do teamwork like you used to before? There's even more opportunities now. Mara rushes and so on.

Also if you're having too much of an ease against aliens perhaps you ought to play against good aliens. Stamina is really really needed with them.

I guess the chaingun is a bit unrealistic, a higher rate of fire and lesser damage to make it do the same DPS wouldn't hurt.

F50

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Afaik human sprinting ability has not changed significantly. Dodge was added and can be used ~3 times in most fights if you don't spend stamina before. Dretches were made faster, afaik sprint wasn't.
The light armor used to make you able to sprint longer. Now all humans have that sprinting capacity, perhaps more. The cost of jumping was also reduced.
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UniqPhoeniX

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Yes, but jumping is not that useful in dodging aliens even with reduced cost, and most humans have always had light armour, aliens had no problem with those specifically before. Also aliens' attacks are now mainly secondary, faster or with longer range, thus requiring humans to move more.

Meisseli

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Yes, but jumping is not that useful in dodging aliens even with reduced cost, and most humans have always had light armour, aliens had no problem with those specifically before. Also aliens' attacks are now mainly secondary, faster or with longer range, thus requiring humans to move more.
Jumping is useful against dretches and strafejumping a few times is a very good method of dodging or escaping.

Aelita

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A critically timed jump, especially at S1, will save you from an otherwise instant killing goon head-chomp. Trust me on this, it's been handy in many, many situations, not to mention as a highly valuable scrim tactic.

Norfenstein

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And I think that in 1.2 developers have made changes that span afar from balance changes, although all the work done yet were labelled as game balancing.
yay some other people who share my views. I agree with ozzy that youve changed things too much. With a few tweaks you could have sorted everything, but you have literally totally changed trem.
If you like 1.1 better than 1.2 then great, we made it and gave it to you for free, source included. But I don't think 1.1 was perfect, or almost perfect, and I didn't think it was when we released it either -- even before seeing the obvious balance problems. 1.2 is as much about finishing the game as it is fixing bugs and addressing the most glaring issues.

Venkman

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...we made it and gave it to you for free, source included.

All discussion of the changes aside (I like them; it just took some adjustment), I just wanted to say thanks for both versions. Designing and coding a game has to be one of the most tedious forms of art ever created. And to create one for free, let alone a great one, is almost unbelievable.

And if this sounds like ass-kissing, let me just say:
I'd rather kiss a grown man's ass than code an entire video game for free.

So yeah, thanks.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 02:58:07 am by Venkman »
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baybal

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And I think that in 1.2 developers have made changes that span afar from balance changes, although all the work done yet were labelled as game balancing.
yay some other people who share my views. I agree with ozzy that youve changed things too much. With a few tweaks you could have sorted everything, but you have literally totally changed trem.
If you like 1.1 better than 1.2 then great, we made it and gave it to you for free, source included. But I don't think 1.1 was perfect, or almost perfect, and I didn't think it was when we released it either -- even before seeing the obvious balance problems. 1.2 is as much about finishing the game as it is fixing bugs and addressing the most glaring issues.
Just I think, it would be much more meaningful for developers to look forward for 2.0 to add more new content into the game and make more radical changes.

Venkman

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Just I think, it would be much more meaningful for developers to look forward for 2.0 to add more new content into the game and make more radical changes.

I think I understand your point here: Why invest so much effort in correcting one version of the game when you could just be creating the sequel while fixing the problems of the first one along the way?

Well I can't speak for the Trem devs, or devs of anything for that matter because I can't code for shit, but I have a vague understanding of the process at least. I know that it's A LOT of work to create an entire game from scratch. A lot more work than it takes to simply correct the first version, that's for sure.

And the fact is 1.1 needed to be fixed. The game is great in theory, but mistakes were made. That's just the nature of the creative process. And now, because of all of us playing the game and providing enough usable data for the devs, they were able to identify the problems and fix them accordingly. What's awesome is that they did it.

Hopefully, they'll continue to be so awesome as to code a sequel. But I don't think that should happen before the first one is playable enough to stand on its own.
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Norfenstein

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I've been involved with Tremulous for about ten years now, so believe me when I say I'd love to change it into a drastically different game (and I know more or less exactly how I'd change it), but as much as anyone might think 1.2 is a departure from 1.1, it's not a fundamentally different game, and I've never felt I had the liberty to change the fundamentals. For the sake of everyone that likes Tremulous, I wanted to at least finish it before moving on to something else. And that's always been what I intended with 1.2.

Conzul

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change it into a drastically different game (and I know more or less exactly how I'd change it)
o.O What do you have in mind?

Norfenstein

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o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.

mooseberry

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SlackerLinux

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o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.
Newthread!

yep newthread and share i know i always wanted trem to expand too theres alot more that it could be(like a research based tech system possible squad/commander system with commander playing the game more like a RTS(taking care of buildables) expanding it for more players more outside much larger maps and possibly vehicles full single player campaigns oh god i can go on for ages)
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your face

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punctuation.  use it.
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Conzul

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o.O What do you have in mind?
Too much to list here.
Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind. I don't mind drastically different as compared to mildly different (thinking GPP, but DW). I think it would be interesting to hear your position on it. Awhile back I was reading the oldest posts in the feedback board, you had some pretty neat/far out ideas that didn't get implemented.

punctuation.  use it.
Capitalization. Admire it.

EDIT: whooops, pressed modify instead of quote D:
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 11:09:38 pm by Norfenstein »

your face

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at least a post without capitalization is still readable. ::)
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Kiwi

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I played a game like that once.. It sucked: http://www.s2games.com/savage/.  One guy is the commander and builds stuff, and the other players fight..  Was ridiculously confusing and not very fun IMHO

Celestial_Rage

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What! Savage was a fun game, though, I didn't quite get into it as I did Tremulous.
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Kiwi

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I never saw the point of it..  I command once, but on one did what I told them to :p

and it isn't that bad of a game :) I just never liked it

Norfenstein

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Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind.
Mostly structured like Gloom, with class and structure design a mixture of Gloom and Tremulous, with various bits that I've liked from other games. No sense in going into detail without anything fit for public consumption, which there won't be until after 1.2 is released, if ever.

Crava_Loft

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 01:05:51 pm by Crava_Loft »

Demolution

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Pretty please, tell us what you have in mind.
Mostly structured like Gloom, with class and structure design a mixture of Gloom and Tremulous, with various bits that I've liked from other games. No sense in going into detail without anything fit for public consumption, which there won't be until after 1.2 is released, if ever.

Are the sound licenses really the only thing hindering the release? >.>

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David

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The models aren't finished either.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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