1.2 Goon. Is Chomp worth it?

[SirDude]

micro pounce spam is massively more powerful then chomp, it looks like the goon is just nudging you to death (at a insane speed).

[Conzul]

micro pounce spam is massively more powerful then chomp, it looks like the goon is just nudging you to death (at a insane speed).

Yeah you can actually map pounce to the spacebar (who uses 'goon jump' anyway?) and it's insanely easy to pull ^that^ off.

[F50]

People have been complaining about pounce all along. While I agree it can make the game a bit frustrating at times, I don't think it is going to change.

Probably not as the one balancing dev, Norfenstein, likes it. The issue was already brought up by a lot of proficient players during the mgdev time, 2 years ago or whenever it was.
There are several different opinions how you should balance 1.2, us in ddos tried our own ideas in our river mod: http://ddos-tremulous.eu/projects/balance/
But as ggp got so few players to start with you can probably guess how popular it became

Heh, true. Why didn't I see this in the gameplay-changing mod forum though?

basilisk healing: removed

EDIT: Also, there is no patch avaliable.

[Cadynum]

Heh, true. Why didn't I see this in the gameplay-changing mod forum though?

basilisk healing: removed

Good question, probably because we never though it would be popular anyway. I'll see if i can get it on the ddos server just for the fun of it though.

For the basilisk, we wanted egg healing to play a bigger role (it heals faster in the mod) and made the lisk useful as a fighter again.
We didn't want to give the aliens an easy way out of forward building, so it's hypothetically required by a granger to creep the entire map if you don't want to go back to the base all the time.

[Dracone]

Yeah, I think that despite being a major "tactical" class, lisk is shit now except for its support abilities. That the ONE thing you have to do to seal a win over a human is now easier (grab), makes 1v1 combat cake, but in 1.1 it was clearly far stronger due to the attack ranges being swapped. It was harder to "seal" a victory over a single human, but you could make up for it by doing a lot of damage with the swipe without grabbing the enemy. Once again: the capacity for improvement with a class in regard to the impact you could make using skill was something was taken away.

[cron]

Just tonight, I was able to take out 3 s2-humans all by myself simply by pouncing each one in turn and using the knock-back to drive them into each other's line of fire.

Ahem. Is there a comparable weapon for S2 Humans that can kill multiple goons or other S2 aliens at a rate like this? Hint: nades don't count.
Didn't think so....

More reason that I believe goon pounce is too strong overall but especially overpowered for a 'secondary' attack (bitch, whine, moan, etc), and that chomp should be the stronger attack - Unless pounce gets used more (it does) and it should be switched to the primary attack as default.

Does anyone play like this? I haven't tried it personally, but pouncing with MB1 seems like it'd be better/easier than right-clicking all the time, and only occasionally chomping.

[Meisseli]

People have been complaining about pounce all along. While I agree it can make the game a bit frustrating at times, I don't think it is going to change.

Probably not as the one balancing dev, Norfenstein, likes it. The issue was already brought up by a lot of proficient players during the mgdev time, 2 years ago or whenever it was.
There are several different opinions how you should balance 1.2, us in ddos tried our own ideas in our river mod: http://ddos-tremulous.eu/projects/balance/
But as ggp got so few players to start with you can probably guess how popular it became

Heh, true. Why didn't I see this in the gameplay-changing mod forum though?

basilisk healing: removed

EDIT: Also, there is no patch avaliable.

I'm not sure even why Cadynum decided to bring it to the discussion. That one was made ages (a year?) ago and hasn't been updated since. We were fed up with the stamina, movement of aliens, etc. blah blah, and decided to try and develop our own modification.

However GPP has evolved since into something a lot better and 95% of the changes there are completely unnecessary and even worse than what's in the current GPP. What I think is still valid in that changelog is the upgrading of defence computer, the dretch HP increase and the goon change (although I really don't think the values for goon should be what they are in there).

Maybe we could remove that 95% of shit from the modification and playtest a little to make a new update.

[KillerWhale]

I've said this a few times before, but I'll put it in here for the sake that it's a good place for this kind of discussion.

I really think that the dragoon's chomp should be the primary attack with no doubt, and that chomp should not be punishing to use.
A short range and quick repeat sounds like the method that would be the most fun and have to most reward for mastering.

My more "controversial" idea is: I think goon pounce should do no damage or knockback and only serve as a method of transportation.
This would, of course, need the goon pounce to be sped up significantly.

The combination of those two attack dynamics and the readdition of pounce-chomps would make the dragoon an agile and fun to play class rather than the oft-clunky dragoon that exists in current GPP play.

[Nux]

Where the fast moving marauder that has to time it's 'slashes' (it actually chomps but the kill text says 'slashed') and so can benefit from walking when close to the target, the goon has never really needed to walk at any point because pounces-hits are automatic and chomps were long range when they were effective (1.1). As a result, the goon already uses pounce as it's primary- and only real -mode of transport.

The thing that makes the goon feel clunky are two things: 1. those damn delays. 2. the physics of a pounce collision.

What I'm referring to with number 2. is the way in which a goon will slide up a wall/person that has interrupted a pounce (which more often than not means 2 seconds of being filled with lead before promptly dying in mid-air). In the real world you wouldn't slide because in the real world you are not made of greased velvet. The intuitive and far less frustrating result should be that all momentum is absorbed and you fall straight down, straight away.

[Cadynum]

However GPP has evolved since into something a lot better and 95% of the changes there are completely unnecessary and even worse than what's in the current GPP. What I think is still valid in that changelog is the upgrading of defence computer, the dretch HP increase and the goon change (although I really don't think the values for goon should be what they are in there).

Maybe we could remove that 95% of shit from the modification and playtest a little to make a new update.

That's not even remotely true, you just started to like gpp more.
The core imbalances with gpp are still there. 50% of the reason to create the mod was to do something against the horrible dretch anyway, which is still the single biggest reason why gpp will never work if we can ever retrieve the clan scene again.

[Meisseli]

However GPP has evolved since into something a lot better and 95% of the changes there are completely unnecessary and even worse than what's in the current GPP. What I think is still valid in that changelog is the upgrading of defence computer, the dretch HP increase and the goon change (although I really don't think the values for goon should be what they are in there).

Maybe we could remove that 95% of shit from the modification and playtest a little to make a new update.

That's not even remotely true, you just started to like gpp more.

No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.

[Cadynum]

No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.

Even if that made the game nicer it didn't change any balance issue.

[Dracone]

Another point to raise about pounce = main weapon being stupid: ping is a huge factor in dodging a goon that's pouncing, because the whole scheme of things is completely different. In 1.1 it took skilled human movements to make it difficult for a good goon to hit you. Distance dodging took time to learn in terms of being up close and then suddenly throwing the goon off and getting space. And the whole ''chomp range too long cuz his ping too high" thing was bullshit too. I know that was because of unlagged but if you got raped by high ping goons it was because your dodging simply wasn't good enough overall and you probably got raped by every other goon too.

But now that's all out the window. Unless they're using the inefficient chomp, it's no longer about intelligent, skilled dodging anymore. It's about getting out of the way of the pouncing goon because they really don't have to do shit to hit you so long as they're close enough to you. However, at medium range you have to time the dodge properly, but ping is a massive factor in this as the true distance between you and the pouncing goon is unknowable.

Imo this whole topic should fall under one truth as a concept: GPP is Tremulous ez mode for those who utilize all the changes that have been made (ex. goon pounce bullshit, dodge). The "balance" is nothing more than features countering features in both directions, creating stalemates on the combat level. And when these stalemates arise, it doesn't matter how good you are anymore because it's all about the features now.

[Meisseli]

No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.

Even if that made the game nicer it didn't change any balance issue.

You think having 3x less stamina wouldn't affect balance?

[Cadynum]

No. Indeed I started to like GPP, when they changed the horrible stamina and movement issues, which I clearly said.

Even if that made the game nicer it didn't change any balance issue.

You think having 3x less stamina wouldn't affect balance?

Yes of course. But the whole point of the river mod was more or less to make the aliens better and more skill dependent. 3x more human stamina doesn't solve any of the alien issues.

[Meisseli]

Yes of course. But the whole point of the river mod was more or less to make the aliens better and more skill dependent. 3x more human stamina doesn't solve any of the alien issues.

The point of the river mod seemed to be to revert everything back to 1.1 values.

Although like I said it also did have its merits, the goon, dretch and defence computer, namely.

[Saliva]

Yes of course. But the whole point of the river mod was more or less to make the aliens better and more skill dependent. 3x more human stamina doesn't solve any of the alien issues.

The point of the river mod seemed to be to revert everything back to 1.1 values.

Although like I said it also did have its merits, the goon, dretch and defence computer, namely.

The point never was reverting values to 1.1. I was part of the designing process and during that time I already knew 1.2 is massively better than 1.1. Above everything else it was about making the dretch not be so weak. Reverting back to 1.1 values always had a good reasoning like changing basi hp back to 75 hp was because it's a bit too easy to kill and it's healing aura removed to make fwd building more important for aliens. It may perhaps seem that values were reverted to 1.1 just for being how it was in 1.1 but that is not the case.

[Lecavalier]

The "balance" is nothing more than features countering features in both directions, creating stalemates on the combat level. And when these stalemates arise, it doesn't matter how good you are anymore because it's all about the features now.

Excellent post.

[SirDude]

i think this thread should be split in two, for the sake of organization...

one about goon pounce and one about balance vs features.

[swamp-cecil]

I can easily dodge a pouncetard, but when he hits me, the knockback makes it a problem, and so he gets me in a corner and... yeah.
however, if there was no knockback, the goon would be right in front of you when he pounces  you, and pounce again, maybe making use of chomp.
Eiither way, my luci is always charged wen attacking to 10/9 which usualy lets a rant live with like 127 HP.
Another tactic can be to  stay in one place, aim a bit in  front of you, and  when you fire jump so  you can severly damage/kill the target and get away to make them run or die hard for your easy kill.

[Dracone]

Also important to think about is that this game is now clearly far more map based than before, though the maps have always been in direct relation to what each team is capable of doing with their respective abilities. But the problem now is that the aliens can get easily fucked over now because human dodge can do more than it should when combined with specific map factors like sloped walls (Meiselli comes charging at me with rant in an Orion hall, I just fly up the fall and over his head and that's that), and then in other cases a hall might be narrow, and tyrants/goons can auto win. And then of course there's the fact that the goon's main attack now displaces it without full control over the movement, which, as I've said before, is just stupid.

I've mentioned how this new version can be almost completely controlled by humans given the proper maps. If there's a big enough staircase, a group of humans can stand on it to render themselves practically ensured against goons, since goon's can't use pounce properly on stairs and are left with the flimsy chomp, which is now retarded to use against groups of anything more than humans without a helmet.

[Menace13]

The best way to have people not use short charge pounce spam would be for it to have an exponential increase in damage. That way it's not worth it to not charge fully.

To make chomp better the simplest thing IMO is increase the width slightly.

[no one]

The best way to have people not use short charge pounce spam would be for it to have an exponential increase in damage. That way it's not worth it to not charge fully.

To make chomp better the simplest thing IMO is increase the width slightly.

no one agrees with the damage based on charge strength. However, in the end, no one still thinks that 1.2's gameplay is far better than 1.1's.

[SirDude]

i see what you did there you clever bastard...

[NexusForever]

Use Chomp combined with Pounce and Barb to kill almost anything!

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

...*snip*... But the problem now is that the aliens can get easily fucked over now because human dodge can do more than it should when combined with specific map factors like sloped walls (Meiselli comes charging at me with rant in an Orion hall, I just fly up the fall and over his head and that's that)...*snip*...

it is quite irritating to charge a bsuit, and having it spam back dodge and luci alt shots till you die, then pop a medkit, so you just wasted 5 evos.

[OhaiReapd]

Another point to raise about pounce = main weapon being stupid: ping is a huge factor in dodging a goon that's pouncing, because the whole scheme of things is completely different. In 1.1 it took skilled human movements to make it difficult for a good goon to hit you. Distance dodging took time to learn in terms of being up close and then suddenly throwing the goon off and getting space. And the whole ''chomp range too long cuz his ping too high" thing was bullshit too. I know that was because of unlagged but if you got raped by high ping goons it was because your dodging simply wasn't good enough overall and you probably got raped by every other goon too.

But now that's all out the window. Unless they're using the inefficient chomp, it's no longer about intelligent, skilled dodging anymore. It's about getting out of the way of the pouncing goon because they really don't have to do shit to hit you so long as they're close enough to you. However, at medium range you have to time the dodge properly, but ping is a massive factor in this as the true distance between you and the pouncing goon is unknowable.

Imo this whole topic should fall under one truth as a concept: GPP is Tremulous ez mode for those who utilize all the changes that have been made (ex. goon pounce bullshit, dodge). The "balance" is nothing more than features countering features in both directions, creating stalemates on the combat level. And when these stalemates arise, it doesn't matter how good you are anymore because it's all about the features now.

I like how people ignored this post. I love you drac, and this is exactly how I feel. Given, I don't possess the skill you do, but I can still dodge and goon in 1.1. 1.2 made everything easy, and learning curve is what makes the game and keeps people playing without being bored.

Without skill, there won't be any scrims worth watching because thats what scrims are for. SKILL, if everything is equal and everyone can be good with no effort, there isn't a reason to prove who's best. It's who has the better connection. :/

[Lecavalier]

Use Chomp combined with Pounce and Barb to kill almost anything!

at the same time?

[OhaiReapd]

Use Chomp combined with Pounce and Barb to kill almost anything!

at the same time?

YES