1HKOs

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

You might consider answering the question, which has been asked of you before, why are 1 hit kills unbalanced? Or do you believe this to be simply unfun, despite being balanced?

unbalanced and unfun.  unbalanced, because as the railgun the q3 developers decided that even in FFA "massdriver" 1HKO were unbalanced.  and this was against 100HP + armor using entities, not armorless 25 hp targets.  furthermore, no alien or human can move faster than a player can aim. there is no real limit as to how fast anyone can look around, but there ARE limits to how fast one might move.  this is also a team game.  weapons and abilities should be balanced to the team, not the individual..  not to sound sarcastic, but i've been answering the quoted question here in every post that i have made here.  except where i have been derailed by explaining why a modification is not the same thing as a "full game".  i agree with anonymoose in that 1HKO should be "special".  only available with stage three equipment, against stage 1 targets.

meissili:

not taking into account splash, spamability, and the "instant" secondary possible right after a primary shot.  sure luci has drawbacks.  everything does.  i just think that "dies instantly because someone mouseover-ed you and clicked mouse1 exactly one time" should not be a drawback for anyone on any team.

plague bringer:

what you are doing, in my opinion mind you, is defending shitty game balance based on "superior ingame tactics".  there are plenty of situations that can happen, where one team gets the advantage over the other, without anyone having "fucked up".  all that aside, it still does not address the imbalance of humans needing less than a full evo for 1HKO immunity, while aliens need to spend 5 for the same protection.  being protected from oneshots allows you do deal damage a little longer, thus giving you an overall better chance of survival.

as to mods, it DOES matter when the mod is the same game as the base game, just with a few variables tweaked.  you cannot compare, say, the cutlass in PVK2 (source mod) to the pulse rifle of HL2DM, but you damn sure can compare the crossbow in both "games".  as i said in the first or second post, our weapons are, for the most part, reskinned and slightly tweaked default weaponry from q3.  one would expect balance in weapons, not tweaks away from balance (or that do not consider other gameplay changes) for the sake of being able to say that it is "different".

in addition the game mechanics are the same.  that's part of what an engine is.  it is q3.  it loads q3 maps in q3 style, and entities interact in these maps according to the rules of q3's game logic.  this is why you can strafejump on any q3-built game.  you do realize that all of the "defining" elements of a game that you listed can be server options in the default game, yes?  so when i run a "q3 server, gravity 1/10 normal", by your definition i am not running q3, but some new game?

However, the lucifer cannon, in general, *does not* kill aliens instantly, except dretches. There are two main factors that contribute to this, the lucifer cannon charge time, and the lucifer cannon's shot speed. The shot speed of the lucifer cannon is huge here. Firstly, it limits the effective range of the lucifer cannon, given an opponent who will dodge. Secondly, it means that an "instakill" will take some time to complete, up to a second, given a resonable range. The charge time is also very important. The human has to know that the alien is coming, and when. To ambush an alien, the human has to know a lot more about the surrounding situation than an alien, who has a radar that updates constantly, and enough mobility, to make the human radar of limited use, given the degree of awareness required (although definitely not useless). Furthermore, the lucifer cannon makes a beeping sound when it is ready to kill a dragoon. If an alien is ambushed, it is in most cases, the aliens own damn fault. If the alien is aware of the lucifer, and holds back, the alien now has a few seconds of relative safety to approach the human. If at this point the alien is killed, it is far from instant. If the human is unaware of the alien, the human will have to spend the first few seconds charging as shot, also eliminating any advantage of killing speed.

to elemanate the luci, and thus the threat of death or wrose, death of the base, an alien must get close, negating most of the drawbacks of luci at range, and all of the benefit of staying outside of radar range.  as i said above, to plague, is it not possible to unleash a secondary shot immediately after releasing primary?  isnt that like, i dont know, being able to swipe in the middle of rant charge, or goon pounce without chomp delay?

i would also assume that good humans are going to charge their luci as i charge my rant, constantly, cancelling at full unless there is a target in range.

And I think you are crazy if you are going basilisk because of its awesome HP reserves.

but it does have awesome HP compared to dretch.  so much so that i can ambush some groups of humans with a direct frontal assault, kill one, and get away.  then again, i just plain like basi.

So tell me, specifically, why the mass driver, shotgun, (ie. the favorite anti-dretch weaponry) and/or (especially) the lucifer cannon is unbalanced. I'd love to do a few 1vs1 rounds of mara vs luci to "prove" my point.

please refer to first post.

[Meisseli]

FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.

[A Spork]

furthermore, no alien or human can move faster than a player can aim. there is no real limit as to how fast anyone can look around, but there ARE limits to how fast one might move.

Thats why you dont run in a straight line.....

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.

trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human.  it has knockback.  so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill.  near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.

Thats why you dont run in a straight line.....

there is no other way to move.  movement, no matter the direction or the eventual target is always (in real life as it is in games) from point "a" to point "b".  in addition to this simple fact, tremulous is in 3d.  not every axis of movement available at any given moment will move your hitbox out from under an observer's crosshair.  sure, erratic movement can confound the aim of newer players, but all they have to learn is to not reflexively click "fire" when making an adjustment to aim.  that's basic marksmanship, and one of the easier things to learn in any FPS. 

one quarter second of aim should not be enough to reward a player with the potential for immunity from 1HKO till s3. 

what i would like to see more than a simple balance fix to remove all but tyrant and luci oneshots, is a system of multiple damage types (possible since doom2) that would make certain weapons more or less effective on the alien classes.  something like the painsaw doing more damage to structure than players, advanced classes gaining an "armor" qualifier that takes reduced damage from some weapons, but increased from others.  so, for example, a MD does more damage over time to a goon than a basi.

a non-trem example would be how the same system worked in AvP2.  the large, armored, praetorian was near impossible to kill with small calibre weapons like the pulse rifle, but the smart gun took it out in an instant.

but that's a little too much to ask for at this stage in the game.  i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.

[Plague Bringer]

trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human.  it has knockback.  so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill.  near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.

First of all, none of this bullshit. You were using "near instant kill dretches" and "two hit basis" as examples for your imbalance claims a handful of posts ago. Don't fuck with your argument when it's convenient for you.

there is no other way to move.  movement, no matter the direction or the eventual target is always (in real life as it is in games) from point "a" to point "b".  in addition to this simple fact, tremulous is in 3d.  not every axis of movement available at any given moment will move your hitbox out from under an observer's crosshair.  sure, erratic movement can confound the aim of newer players, but all they have to learn is to not reflexively click "fire" when making an adjustment to aim.  that's basic marksmanship, and one of the easier things to learn in any FPS. 

one quarter second of aim should not be enough to reward a player with the potential for immunity from 1HKO till s3. 

what i would like to see more than a simple balance fix to remove all but tyrant and luci oneshots, is a system of multiple damage types (possible since doom2) that would make certain weapons more or less effective on the alien classes.  something like the painsaw doing more damage to structure than players, advanced classes gaining an "armor" qualifier that takes reduced damage from some weapons, but increased from others.  so, for example, a MD does more damage over time to a goon than a basi.

a non-trem example would be how the same system worked in AvP2.  the large, armored, praetorian was near impossible to kill with small calibre weapons like the pulse rifle, but the smart gun took it out in an instant.

but that's a little too much to ask for at this stage in the game.  i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.

So the Praetorian was balanced because could be killed in an instant? 

Have you noticed that all community members who have commented have disagreed with you? There is a point where persistence becomes ignorance, and you are nearing that point.

Also, what would the weapons "original" balance be? You mean their balance in 1.1? For the last time, you do realize that these weapons are unique to Tremulous, right? Yes, stats for some weapons may have been changed rather than written from scratch, but it doesn't make a difference, because they are different.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human.  it has knockback.  so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill.  near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.

First of all, none of this bullshit. You were using "near instant kill dretches" and "two hit basis" as examples for your imbalance claims a handful of posts ago. Don't fuck with your argument when it's convenient for you.

there is no other way to move.  movement, no matter the direction or the eventual target is always (in real life as it is in games) from point "a" to point "b".  in addition to this simple fact, tremulous is in 3d.  not every axis of movement available at any given moment will move your hitbox out from under an observer's crosshair.  sure, erratic movement can confound the aim of newer players, but all they have to learn is to not reflexively click "fire" when making an adjustment to aim.  that's basic marksmanship, and one of the easier things to learn in any FPS. 

one quarter second of aim should not be enough to reward a player with the potential for immunity from 1HKO till s3. 

what i would like to see more than a simple balance fix to remove all but tyrant and luci oneshots, is a system of multiple damage types (possible since doom2) that would make certain weapons more or less effective on the alien classes.  something like the painsaw doing more damage to structure than players, advanced classes gaining an "armor" qualifier that takes reduced damage from some weapons, but increased from others.  so, for example, a MD does more damage over time to a goon than a basi.

a non-trem example would be how the same system worked in AvP2.  the large, armored, praetorian was near impossible to kill with small calibre weapons like the pulse rifle, but the smart gun took it out in an instant.

but that's a little too much to ask for at this stage in the game.  i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.

So the Praetorian was balanced because could be killed in an instant? 

Have you noticed that all community members who have commented have disagreed with you? There is a point where persistence becomes ignorance, and you are nearing that point.

Also, what would the weapons "original" balance be? You mean their balance in 1.1? For the last time, you do realize that these weapons are unique to Tremulous, right? Yes, stats for some weapons may have been changed rather than written from scratch, but it doesn't make a difference, because they are different.

i have not changed my argument.  if you would actually read it instead of skimming and making assumptions, you would understand this.  as i stated the first time it was brought up, i mentioned "near instant" to give context.  i also explicitly stated that i do not have that much of an issue with "near instant".

praetorian is balanced like a more complex tyrant.  instead of a fuckload of HP, it has damage reduction against "small arms".  there are more, slight, differences, but that is the heart of it.  it's also besides the point, as i was just using the praetorian as an example to illustrate the concepts i'm bringing up.

also, no, not all community members have disagreed with me.  nux and anonymoose have both at the least seen my point for what it is.  they may or may not care for my resoning behind the suggestion, but they at least see my point.

you are right about persistence.  you'd think i'd learn that there is not much point attempting to better explain myself to you.  then again, i thought you would get the point the second or third time i explicitly stated it.guess that's a big "wrong" on both counts, eh?

"original balance" means "the balance that existed in q3 before the tremulous devs started plunking away new variables into the old weapons".  if you had not gone off into "game vs mod" you would have realized that i brought up q3, it was in reference to its balance, which was lost in the conversion to tremulous.

[Meisseli]

FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.

trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human.  it has knockback.  so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill.  near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.

Then again, lucifer damages only as well when the human is close enough to the alien to actually hit it, and has a charge time, so I'd say it counts as a near instant kill.

Original balance of Quake 3 ? I'm sorry, Tremulous is not Quake 3. It's a quite ridiculous claim. Where's the lightning gun? Where's a slow-firing, charged up weapon like lucifer cannon? Where's chaingun? Massdriver only one-shots dretches, not anywhere near the power of railgun. How about lasgun? Flamethrower?

I'm not sure where you're going with that. Do you want to perhaps remove the weapons that aren't nothing like Q3 and add the Q3 weapons instead? How would you balance weapons that clearly aren't in Q3? Or do you just like to think that all the games Q3 engine has spanned are one and same, like Doom3, Urban Terror, Medal of Honor: AA/PA, Smokin' Guns, Soldier of Fortune II, Call of Duty, Star Wars Jedi Knight 2?

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.

trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human.  it has knockback.  so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill.  near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.

Then again, lucifer damages only as well when the human is close enough to the alien to actually hit it, and has a charge time, so I'd say it counts as a near instant kill.

Original balance of Quake 3 ? I'm sorry, Tremulous is not Quake 3. It's a quite ridiculous claim. Where's the lightning gun? Where's a slow-firing, charged up weapon like lucifer cannon? Where's chaingun? Massdriver only one-shots dretches, not anywhere near the power of railgun. How about lasgun? Flamethrower?

I'm not sure where you're going with that. Do you want to perhaps remove the weapons that aren't nothing like Q3 and add the Q3 weapons instead? How would you balance weapons that clearly aren't in Q3? Or do you just like to think that all the games Q3 engine has spanned are one and same, like Doom3, Urban Terror, Medal of Honor: AA/PA, Smokin' Guns, Soldier of Fortune II, Call of Duty, Star Wars Jedi Knight 2?

q3 is idtech3.  doom3 is idtech4.  if a "game" uses a licensed engine, with a "flagship" title, and it does not signifigantly change how the engine is used, i consider it a mod and fair game to compare to the original.

yes, the weapons have been modified.  did you know, at "best" the railgun would oneshot adv basi?  it has never been able to oneshot a fresh spawn.  it's been toned down from that, at release, to the current version, that can oneshot normal basi.  and that is only because basi do not have 120 HP like a fresh q3 spawn.

aside from the reload, the massdriver is essentially a reskinned railgun. lasgun is, as you well know, a modified rifle.  the luci is a chargeup rocket launcher.  chaingun is like q3 chaingun without the windup.  no, not the machine gun, the chaingun.  you answered yourself about the lightning gun.  what do you think the flamethrower is analogous to? 

"close enough to hit" is highly subjective.  surely you know about the concept of "motion prediction".  the large splash of a fully charged luci is also helpful in negating exact aim.  and again, the alien, in most cases, will have to close to colliding distance of your model, as a luci is something that must be taken out before it can kill the base.

furthermore, many players know that by sitting back and waiting, they keep the advantage, rather than risking it by advancing themselves.  i'll say it in plain english yet again:  "RAK does not like one hit kills".  i'll go one further and add "but he is ok with s3 vs s1 1hko, but thinks humans should pay more for total immunity."

[Qrntz]

Am I the only one who thinks that after 3 or more pages of repeating drama the devs still won't give a flying fuck?

unless someone gets tired and locks the topic
yes, I hint at the 96% possibility of all your keystrokes being useless in terms of gameplay changing, be it for the bad or for the good
not attacking a point, don't shitstorm me please
sorry for getting in the way
if you can read this without magnification, you're either extremely awesome or have a 320x240 display resolution

[Meisseli]

So, you think LR300 is a modified machinegun? SR8 is a modified railgun? SPAS12 is a modified shotgun? Hey, Urban Terror uses ioquake3 as well as Tremulous!

Have you even played Quake 3? There isn't a rifle in quake 3, only machinegun. The rocket launcher sure is hell of a spammy gun, with no charge time. It is nothing like lucifer at all. None of the weapons in Q3 have reload. Gauntlet slices people 50hp a slice, painsaw has continuous damage. Default Q3 doesn't have chaingun at all. There's nothing like flamer in Q3. Tremulous hasn't got a BFG, lightning gun, grenade launcher... truly I could go on and on. Your claim is too laughable.

i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.

So, with your twisted idea that Q3 == Trem == Urban Terror == any Q3-derived game, and that "original balance", meaning Quake 3, should be restored, you'd like massdriver to be like the rail gun? 100 damage a hit? Shotgun deal 110 damage at most? I don't understand your point at all and how it would make the game better...

[Kunari]

Are you proposing to either increase the dretch health points so that it requires 2 shots of the massdriver  or taking away the luci cannon? As  I think there is simply no way to balance the luci cannon so that it can't 1 shot any of the aliens.
 
About the tyrant swipe and dragoon chomp, so you suggest having a damage modifier so dragoon and tyrant cant 1 hit to kill naked humans right?


edit:

while i dont really have any suggestions for "fixing" this, i'll end here.  it just annoyed me to no end to see trem using flawed balance like this, a balance issue not present in the original game trem is modded from.

Okay, I think you're asking people to provide you with fixes, however as I read this forum most of them is either disagreeing with you or not helping you find fixes or being downright confused.

Actually what is your intention to create this thread really? Seems you created this thread for an argument of opinions, not fixes. (wait is that correct? You created this thread for people to argue with your ...)

[Nux]

It's actually pretty easy to remove the possibility of one-hit kills from the lucifer cannon without doing much to it's effectiveness: Divide the charge time and the damage amount by X, where X is whatever the hell you like (greater than 1).

[Plague Bringer]

It's actually pretty easy to remove the possibility of one-hit kills from the lucifer cannon without doing much to it's effectiveness: Divide the charge time and the damage amount by X, where X is whatever the hell you like (greater than 1).

Making it more spammy? Last I checked the devs decreased the speed of secondary shots for a reason.

Thank you, Meiselli, for seeing the ridiculousness with comparing a total conversion mod to its engine's original game. However falacious and ad-homenim it may be to discredit an idea based on the giver of said idea, I'm nearing the conclusion that RAKninja is incapable of providing a stable and logical claim with evidence to back it up. With that conclusion in mind, it's safe to say that any ideas from RAKninja are likely illogical and without supporting evidence.

RAKninja: First off, I have the respect to thoroughly read everything you've posted. If I tell you something's bullshit, don't tell me to read your post "for the first time". Secondly, can you please compare the balance between Drift City, Fallout 3, and LEGO Universe? They are all based on the same engine. Was the removal of VATS in Drift City a good or bad decision? What do you think about the new "Race" game mode. Personally, I preferred the quests in Fallout 3. Between Fallout 3, Drift City, and LEGO Universe, I think Drift City is my favorite Oblivion mod.

Your criteria of what constitutes a "new" game is a little lacking in logic. I can change the every model, sound, texture, map, and gamemode; I can tweak the fire rate, damage, projectile type and size, splash, reload time and frequency, and clip size of every weapon, and even add/take away weapons and items that influence the power of weapons (battery pack); I can change variables such as match length, gravity, and friction; I can add an entirely new team with coded-from-scratch weapons, health, size, speed, and abilities; I can add an entirely new RTS building element that not only changes the way players spawn, but also changes objectives, and the method of obtaining powerups, weapons, and armor; I can introduce six (count 'em) new methods of movement between two unique teams; I can compile this game and release it as a standalone package; and because it's built on an engine that I didn't code from the ground up, I haven't created new game? On behalf of Timbo and the Darklegion team, as well as every other small-time developer or team who has created a total conversion: Fuck you.

Now, moving on, you were not "just" using the praetorian as an example for a concept you'd like implemented. There simply is no "just" about it. When the only evidence for your claim is an example, you cannot, when someone discredits your example, say "Phooey, that's besides the point; it was just an example! My point stands." Your point does not stand, because the only evidence you gave for your concept was an example that you threw away because you were too lazy or incompetent to defend it.

Also, might I point out that your qualms with "near instant kills" have been anything but obviously (and only) contextual. In fact, they seem to have been support for your point which, confusingly enough, appears to be high damage weapons (and maneuverability) moreso than it is one hit kills.

goon - first alien available that can oneshot a helmetless human, with a chomp, or armorless human, with a full pounce.
rant - can oneshot helmetless humans with maul, and "near instantly" kill armorless humans with trample

shotgun - can oneshot dretches from down a hall or across the room, 2-shot basi's
MD - oneshots dretches, two for basi
nade - it oneshots dretches, basi's, perhaps even maras, but is more understandable, as a single use weapon.
luci - oneshots up to maras with a charged shot, easily oneshots below maras with splash that deceptively extends far past the particle effect.

a close runner up is the flamer, that while it does not kill instantly, you can run around spraying all over the place and be reasonably sure that anything mara and below that you graze is dead, or close to it.

...  bring a buddy with a SG, that way, nothing short of a goon can stop you, and it better be a fairly decent goon at that.  you two will kill perhaps even maras with one shot each... no more than two.  and those are s1 weapons.  add in helmet and larmor, you're pretty much invulnerable except running out of ammo, or any good goons that happen to be playing. at least until something you cannot "oneshot" - the tyrant, is available.

meisseli:
there is also the shotgun, massdriver, and not instant but still close: the flamer and painsaw.

I, and I'm sure everyone else, would love for you to explain why the examples in bold are necessary from a contextual point of view. I'd also like to know why, when talking about the SG/MD team, you referred to everything under the Tyrant when you said "something that cannot be oneshotted". You seem to be confusing one (or even two, three, or four) shot(s) from multiple weapons and one shot from one weapon. With enough rifles, you will ...

oneshot

... anything.

[Anonymoose]

This is the feedback section.
Give me my feed back.

[Nux]

Making it more spammy? Last I checked the devs decreased the speed of secondary shots for a reason.

Was just pointing out the alternative. I don't like the sound of it either and I'm not sure if RAK would. It would have to be more spammy than the old lucifer cannon was because even that could one-hit kill most aliens.

I think including lucifer cannon on that list was a mistake since it is the most expensive, slow charging, slow projectile weapon. Of course it's going to pack a punch.

[F50]

You might consider answering the question, which has been asked of you before, why are 1 hit kills unbalanced? Or do you believe this to be simply unfun, despite being balanced?

unbalanced and unfun.  unbalanced, because as the railgun the q3 developers decided that even in FFA "massdriver" 1HKO were unbalanced.  and this was against 100HP + armor using entities, not armorless 25 hp targets.

*sigh*

The fact they are armorless 25hp targets is exactly why it *is* balanced, as I have said before. If you consider dretches to die in a quarter second, then the mass driver (and shotgun) is only three times as effective as the rifle. It isn't a huge difference between "Dies in one hit" and "dies very quickly". If you want to argue about the fundamental characteristics of the dretch, then say so, but I think this is less about the human weapons (with the notable exception of the Lucifer cannon) than the dretch. It would be interesting to see how balanced a 41hp dretch would be.

did you know, at "best" the railgun would oneshot adv basi?  it has never been able to oneshot a fresh spawn.  it's been toned down from that, at release, to the current version, that can oneshot normal basi.  and that is only because basi do not have 120 HP like a fresh q3 spawn.

Yes, a basilisk would not have 120 hp, that would be unbalanced. Neither would a dretch for that matter. I recommend you look up fragile speedster, which applies to the dretch, and mostly to the basilisk as well.

not taking into account splash, spamability, and the "instant" secondary possible right after a primary shot.  sure luci has drawbacks.  everything does.  i just think that "dies instantly because someone mouseover-ed you and clicked mouse1 exactly one time" should not be a drawback for anyone on any team.

The complexity of actually 1-hit killing something with the lucifer is much greater than you suggest, and is not an instant kill in any sense of the word. I don't see how the lucifer cannon primary connects to 1HKO's in anything but name.

it still does not address the imbalance of humans needing less than a full evo for 1HKO immunity, while aliens need to spend 5 for the same protection.  being protected from oneshots allows you do deal damage a little longer, thus giving you an overall better chance of survival.

Nope, no it doesn't. The lucifer cannon is different, and their availability does not reliably allow you to kill aliens faster, and being protected from being oneshotted by its primary attack does not mean that you will, in general, be able to deal damage any longer than if you were not (but had the same HP).

You do not need five evos to get the same protection from 1HKO's that the humans get, you need one. You get protection from all but one attack (tyrant charge/luci), and both of those are *the* S3 weapons, just the as the humans. I had forgotten about the tyrant charge before, although that is because it is different in the same way as the lucifer cannon, thanks Meisseli. In fact, the protection from 1HKO's is avaliable in S1 for aliens, while requires S2 for humans.

to elemanate the luci, and thus the threat of death or wrose, death of the base, an alien must get close, negating most of the drawbacks of luci at range, and all of the benefit of staying outside of radar range.  as i said above, to plague, is it not possible to unleash a secondary shot immediately after releasing primary?  isnt that like, i dont know, being able to swipe in the middle of rant charge, or goon pounce without chomp delay? i would also assume that good humans are going to charge their luci as i charge my rant, constantly, cancelling at full unless there is a target in range.

You may release a secondary shot, doing all of....30 damage (IIRC)... immediately after the primary shot. Its worthless except against basis and dretches. Similar to being able to swipe in the middle of a rant charge? That's ridiculous. While many of the drawbacks of the lucifer cannon disappear at short range, the charge time is still an issue that can be exploited. Furthermore, this is no longer in 1HKO territory, as the alien can have as much time alive as he wants dodging luci charges, before taking a risk to kill the lucifer cannon. It is not without danger as a dragoon, or mara I admit. However, in this situation, the lucifer cannon is considerably weaker than a chaingun. If you like, this can be demonstrated on devmap for you. Also, its impossible to cancel a luci shot in GPP.

And I think you are crazy if you are going basilisk because of its awesome HP reserves.

but it does have awesome HP compared to dretch.  so much so that i can ambush some groups of humans with a direct frontal assault, kill one, and get away.  then again, i just plain like basi.

And this is the same situation where you get owned by mass drivers? You are so much better at basilisk that I am, why do you suck so much as a dretch?

So tell me, specifically, why the mass driver, shotgun, (ie. the favorite anti-dretch weaponry) and/or (especially) the lucifer cannon is unbalanced. I'd love to do a few 1vs1 rounds of mara vs luci to "prove" my point.

please refer to first post.

So the sole reason that the mass driver, shotgun, and lucifer cannon are unbalanced, is that dretches are not meant to take damage?

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

meissili -

havent played urban terror to make the comparison, but it is a safe bet that most of its weapons are only reskinned and slightly modified from q3 base.

i'm sorry you misunderstood me.  when i said "rifle" i assumed you would realise that since there is no rifle in q3, i was talking about the tremulous rifle.  lasgun is rifle without reload and spread, right?  adding reload is a "slight modification".  as is tweaking the variables a little bit.  "default quake 3" is also subjective.  which default for which period of time?  i'm surprised no one called me out on this.  q3 gold (which bundles in team arena, where the chaingun originates) was released almost a decade ago.  quake live includes everything that came from team arena.  q3 1.0 has not been the "default" in over a decade.

as for balance, i do not want the weapons restored to their original variables, i want their effects to be scaled back to the effects of the original.  this means the rail...err... massdriver would take two shots to kill a fresh spawn (meaning: a dretch).  q3 has been out for a long time, and it has two prior games in the series.  that's a long time to find balance.  we should build from the lessons they learned, not throw them away for the sake of "being different".

kunari:
after three pages of discussion, i would, by some mechanism, cause the MD to require two shots to kill a dretch.  i would cause the luci to only be able to oneshot dretches.  i would remove the ability of goons to instantly kill unarmored humans, but leave that of the tyrant alone.

this is the feedback section.  i am simply providing mine.  feedback, by its very nature, is opinion.

plague bringer -

i find it doubtful that you have indeed read al of my posts.  if you had, you would not bring up FO3 as an example, as i have indeed already voiced my opinion about gamebryo games in general, and FO3 in specific.  my idea of a mod is not as illogical as you think.  modifying the game data alone makes it a mod.  you must modify the engine and interface to create a "true standalone game".  again using morrowind as an example, if i replaced all the game data (art assets, scripts, world geometry) so that the game now takes place in a historically accurate ancient egypt, it is still a mod.  a total conversion mod, but a mod none the less.  if i used that same custom gamedata in an engine of my own devising, it would be a stand alone game.  if i somehow modified netemmerse, so that now my game is played like a top-down point and click rts, it would be a stand alone game.

so, for clarity, "RAK defines a full game as a game that has its own custom engine, or changes the engine to be significantly different than the flagship title of the engine".  tremulous replaces the game data, but does not significantly change the engine or interface.  in my estimation, this defines it as a mod, and not a stand alone game.  again, there is no shame in this, and it does not diminish tremulous in any way.  "mod" is a descriptive label, not a term with negative connotations.  your drama filled invoking of the developers is senseless.  as a modder and small-time coder myself, you are invoking me to tell me "fuck you", along with the trem team and everyone else who has ever modded.

you are extracting arguments about specific, peripheral points, which were used to give context originally, and applying them to the original point.  such arguments were made as a few people feel the need to fault my reasoning rather than my point.  this led to several mainly off topic arguments against several mainly off topic points.  i thought you said you've been reading everything.  i wonder how you could have missed that.  for example, in the sentence before i claimed the praetorian was "just an example" i answered your "counterargument".  if you have issue with my counterargument, say so, and do not claim i am avoiding defending my point when i plainly did not.  i mean, you ARE reading all of this right?  not just the selective sentence here and there?  because i dont know how you could have missed that.

adv goon and under dies in one shot of the luci.  this is why i called everything under rant a possible one shot.  conversely, there is no single attack that can kill a s2 armored human.  if you want to include rant trample, which is not instant but close, then we allow comparisons of flamer and painsaw, as these are both the same kind of weapon.  call them "extreme damage per second of contact" weapons.  including those only strengthens my position, as the saw is s1, and the flamer is s2.  the rant is s3.  so again, the humans have "extreme damage per second of contact" weapons that can instantly kill anything less than mara (including s2 basi+) before aliens get the same ability.  the s2 human version includes range and splash damage as well.

now, my examples.  

sg and md.  two for basi indicates where it should be for dretch.

sg & md team - for less credits than it takes evos, humans can have a team that oneshots any dretch in their considerable range.  in addition, they can twoshot anything less than a goon, the best thing available at s1.  it takes more players and more evos to dislodge such a team than it takes to field one.  if dretches tool more than one shot of each weapon, this situation would not be true.

f50 -

there is quite a difference between "dies in one hit" to "dies very quickly".  with "very quickly" there exists the possibility of avoiding some of the damage, and dealing some of your own.  with "one hit" you just feed, with no possibility of earning some evos.  thus keeping you dretch, and keeping the humans stocked with more MDs and SGs to keep up the carnage.

c'mon man, dont link me tvtropes.  pop culture rarely produces good game balance.  basi is balanced against MD and SG, it takes two shots.  dretch needs the same.  even if it survives the shot with only 1hp.

the complexity of even making oneshots on unarmored humans with rantswipe is comparable, i think, to oneshotting with the luci.  especially against humans that know how to dance.  i imagine this is comparable to a lucisuit taking on a dretch that knows his game.

when i was using the word instant in regards to luci secondary, i was referring to the ability to fire a secondary immediately after releasing a primary, adding 30 damage to the primary, and having its own splash.  as there is, for all practical reasons, no delay in firing a secondary, you extend the 1hko factor of the primary by the same amount.  what's the math like?  how much charge do you need to deal enough damage -30 to kill a mara?

i beg to differ about the same protection.  by spending less than an evo, a human can be protected by everything but rant trample.  with creative use of the dodge system (and/or a luci) you can use the rantcharge to bounce you out of harm's way, and keep dealing damage.  lucisplash rarely has the same beneficial effect.

as to luci cancelling, i had thought this related to switching to blaster retaining the charge of the luci, and not cancelling the charge itself.  

on the matter of friend basi:  because basi takes two hits from these "burst damage" weapons to kill.  he also heals himself as fast as he heals others, so if you can avoid damage for a moment, you can potentially survive longer.  this is not unlike a human popping a medkit in battle.  surviving the first shot can get you into position where humans hold fire to avoid teamkilling.

the reason these weapons are imbalanced, as is goon pounce and chomp, is that they can kill a fresh spawn in a singular hit.  roles aside, i am of the opinion that allowing the killing of fresh spawns with one, singular, hit is bad game balance.  hell, swap dretch and basic basi HP, and reduce adv basi.  that is more balanced than allowing 1hko on fresh spawns.  at least, that way, you must choose to allow these things to oneshot you.  i'm willing to except tyrant and luci from this, as they are s3 equipment, supposedly the ultimate.

i feel that if you remove all but s3 oneshots, less games would devolve into campfests.  i feel it would foster more teamwork as it would require players to work together to kill things quickly.  i feel it would remove the attraction of spawn camping, by making it a far more risky activity.

Am I the only one who thinks that after 3 or more pages of repeating drama the devs still won't give a flying fuck?

unless someone gets tired and locks the topic
yes, I hint at the 96% possibility of all your keystrokes being useless in terms of gameplay changing, be it for the bad or for the good
not attacking a point, don't shitstorm me please
sorry for getting in the way
if you can read this without magnification, you're either extremely awesome or have a 320x240 display resolution

if nothing else, i feel better for voicing my opinion.

[Plague Bringer]

You are too picky about what make a oneshot balanced. You believe that fresh spawns should be immune to oneshots because "oneshots are bad." You've hardly given any examples of why, exactly, a oneshot is imbalanced in Tremulous (which, for the last time, plays a lot differently than Quake 3). You've mentioned that it's frustrating, yes. You've mentioned that it's unfair, yes. You've mentioned that humans have more opportunity than aliens, yes. Aliens have more opportunity to poison and wall walk. You're neglecting to say exactly why "different" is unfair. I haven't recognized a distinct lack of balance. I haven't noticed people complaining. I haven't seen stats to indicate that humans get more oneshots than aliens. I haven't seen stats that say how many times a single luci will, in one life get oneshots (or kills) compared to a goon (or even a marauder).

My point about mods is that you wouldn't dare compare the balance in Tremulous to the balance in Quake 3 if Tremulous was on Darkplaces or Unreal Engine, regardless of the physics values. Player movement and scale could be exactly the same as Q3, but you wouldn't bother comparing the weapons and/or balance. You may use Quake 3 as an example: "Quake 3 dealt with 1hkos well! This is how...", but not as a direct comparison. You're putting too much weight in the value of what engine a game is on when it is completely irrelevant. It is frustrating and ridiculous.

[F50]

First of all, +1 plague bringer. I would further add to that: Just because tremulous uses balance features present in other games, or even original balance features (1HKOs is not one of them) means that the balance is bad.

I want their effects to be scaled back to the effects of the original.  this means the rail...err... massdriver would take two shots to kill a fresh spawn (meaning: a dretch).  q3 has been out for a long time, and it has two prior games in the series.  that's a long time to find balance.  we should build from the lessons they learned, not throw them away for the sake of "being different".

So, what you're saying is that a fresh-spawned q3 battlesuit should be equivalent to a dretch. This is completely inappropriate and rediculous. The base class is weak, this is tremulous, not q3.

i find it doubtful that you have indeed read al of my posts.  if you had, you would not bring up FO3 as an example, as i have indeed already voiced my opinion about gamebryo games in general, and FO3 in specific.

For clarity: People may have differing opinions, this may include opinions about Fallout 3. Disagreeing with an argument does not mean that one didn't read it.

so, for clarity, "RAK defines a full game as a game that has its own custom engine, or changes the engine to be significantly different than the flagship title of the engine".

For clarity: I find your definition rediculous. Plague bringer did full justice to that I think, and I'll just refer to his post the next time you mention this sort of thing.

"mod" is a descriptive label, not a term with negative connotations.  your drama filled invoking of the developers is senseless.  as a modder and small-time coder myself, you are invoking me to tell me "fuck you", along with the trem team and everyone else who has ever modded.

What is objected to here, is the entire comparison with q3. Tremulous is a mod of q3 before it went standalone. Perhaps in some circumstances you could say it still is. But nonetheless, there are no meaningful gameplay comparisons that arise out of that derivation alone. And since there are no meaningful, direct, gameplay comparisons, at least, no more than an FPS based off of a different engine, and because there are no dependencies on q3 as of yet, I'd say its a game in and of itself. Furthermore, not all games that use the exact same engine are considered to be mods of each other in common language. Of course, this is completely irrelevant, and has been for some time. The point is that making balance and gameplay comparisons between tremulous and q3 based on heritage is idiotic.

adv goon and under dies in one shot of the luci.

As I've said before, you are being inconsistent here. The lucifer has much in common with rant trample, and very little in common with the instant killing abilities of the mass driver.

if you want to include rant trample, which is not instant but close, then we allow comparisons of flamer and painsaw, as these are both the same kind of weapon.  call them "extreme damage per second of contact" weapons.  including those only strengthens my position

Well, first of all, what we really should do is just throw out both the lucifer cannon and the rant trample together from this discussion. However, including flamer and psaw most certainly do not strengthen your position. For instance. The painsaw takes more time to kill a marauder than the regular dragoon can kill a helmeted human. You see, there is nothing sacred about 1-hit kills. They merely kill someone very quickly. Given unlagged, in the time it takes for the shot-hit information to arrive at the server, added to the time it takes for the person who was killed to receive the damage/death information. This normally takes between 0.1 and 0.3 seconds. There really isn't much difference between a mass driver and a rifle given perfect aim, just play against Celestial's GPP bots with skill set to 0.

sg and md.  two for basi indicates where it should be for dretch.

Sorry, I have to ask, what is this an example of?

sg & md team - for less credits than it takes evos, humans can have a team that oneshots any dretch in their considerable range.  in addition, they can twoshot anything less than a goon, the best thing available at s1.  it takes more players and more evos to dislodge such a team than it takes to field one.  if dretches tool more than one shot of each weapon, this situation would not be true.

Yep. Attacking ranged weapons at long range is disadvantageous to short-ranged creatures. Who would have thought it would work like that? Seriously, this happens all of the time, the trick is to either go in large groups and pick off at least one, bring a larger alien to draw fire (and take out one or two himself), and/or wait until they move up the hall to face you at closer range. Dodging *helps*. If dretches took two shots with those weapons, they would be quite powerful indeed, given their size and speed. So much so that we should probably make them bigger, and larger, and cost an evo to compensate...

there is quite a difference between "dies in one hit" to "dies very quickly".  with "very quickly" there exists the possibility of avoiding some of the damage, and dealing some of your own.  with "one hit" you just feed, with no possibility of earning some evos.  thus keeping you dretch, and keeping the humans stocked with more MDs and SGs to keep up the carnage.

And here is where you are inconsistent. The lucifer cannon kills you in one hit, but normally (and if it isn't its usually your own fault), you will have an opportunity to avoid all damage, and deal quite a bit of your own. Furthermore, what you say of 1 hit kill weapons here is true of all weapons that kill you quickly. If they kill you quickly enough, you will never reach them, and thus never be able to do damage, and thus gain no evos. What is the difference? Why does it matter? To me, it seems like the difference is 0.4 seconds, at most (again, face off against the bots to learn this). The fact is, the dretch is a fragile speedster, the point of dretching is to not get hit at all. After all, you can take half of a second of gunfire. Read the tvtropes article. Perhaps its authors would not great game-designers, but they do describe the game design concept quite nicely.

basi is balanced against MD and SG, it takes two shots.  dretch needs the same.  even if it survives the shot with only 1hp.

Why is that? Why must the dretch be unbalanced at all? The dretch is weaker than the shotgun, after all, the shotgun costs credits. In fact, even a rifle is worth more than a dretch IIRC. Is a dretch balanced against a lucifer cannon? In my opinion, yes it is. But the game values them differently. Balance is far more than merely "RAK does not like 1HKOs, therefore they are unbalanced." I'm not sure if I'm making a caracature of your position or not, but please, give me something to work with, give me something more than mere "RAK does not like 1HKOs". Because if that is all you got, you have managed to put the most words to the most empty phrase I have yet seen outside of a religious debate .

the complexity of even making oneshots on unarmored humans with rantswipe is comparable, i think, to oneshotting with the luci.  especially against humans that know how to dance.  i imagine this is comparable to a lucisuit taking on a dretch that knows his game.

Well, here's a deal then, I'll be a rant, and you be a naked human, and we'll see what the complex of that is. Then you can be a helm+luci/bsuit+luci, and I'll be a marauder/goon, and we'll see how complex that is. I think you're being rediculous here, I call bullshit. Show it to me in-game, show me more than merely "RAK does not like 1HKOs".

when i was using the word instant in regards to luci secondary, i was referring to the ability to fire a secondary immediately after releasing a primary, adding 30 damage to the primary, and having its own splash.  as there is, for all practical reasons, no delay in firing a secondary, you extend the 1hko factor of the primary by the same amount.  what's the math like?  how much charge do you need to deal enough damage -30 to kill a mara?

You'll need roughly half a luci charge. However, against a marauder that is irrelevant. If you can hit thing thing with any charge between that and 255, you'll kill it. But the problem is timing your release with the marauder's position. You won't get the full DPS except against buildings.

i beg to differ about the same protection.  by spending less than an evo, a human can be protected by everything but rant trample.  with creative use of the dodge system (and/or a luci) you can use the rantcharge to bounce you out of harm's way, and keep dealing damage.  lucisplash rarely has the same beneficial effect.

*sigh*, we are talking about how being a basilisk compares to the protection of larmor+helm. How does comparing the luci to the tyrant charge effect that comparison at all? The mostly similar correct comparison is that if you're a basilisk/larmor+rifle, you probably are going to have trouble taking on a tyrant/luci. Your comparison makes no sense whatsoever. Bring me something that isn't misdirection. You are arguing around the issue here. Do you have anything that can back up "RAK does not like 1HKOs".

as to luci cancelling, i had thought this related to switching to blaster retaining the charge of the luci, and not cancelling the charge itself.

Doesn't work anymore.


For the TL;DR folks, just read this one:

the reason these weapons are imbalanced, as is goon pounce and chomp, is that they can kill a fresh spawn in a singular hit.  roles aside, i am of the opinion that allowing the killing of fresh spawns with one, singular, hit is bad game balance.  hell, swap dretch and basic basi HP, and reduce adv basi.  that is more balanced than allowing 1hko on fresh spawns.  at least, that way, you must choose to allow these things to oneshot you.  i'm willing to except tyrant and luci from this, as they are s3 equipment, supposedly the ultimate.

So the entire reason why these human weapons are unbalanced is because dretches are not designed to take damage? I think I heard you say that again. (he asks again, expecting "RAK does not like 1HKOs".)

Also goon chomp and pounce are unbalanced as well, because "RAK does not like 1HKOs"? It seems that RAK doesn't like getting owned by people with more credits than he does. Ok, fine. How is that unbalanced? Do you have anything more than "RAK does not like 1HKOs"?


Also, re-read plague bringer's last post (right above this far-too-long one), that post is far more eloquent than mine.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

plague bringer:

my "pickyness" is a concession.  to be completely honest, i would remove oneshots on those as well, but i can deal with imbalances in these as they are stage 3, and should be somewhat overpowered. i have given you examples as to why i think oneshots are bad, and the examples of other team based FPS, a couple even including buildables.  this is why i say you dont read my posts.  all of the things you have just accused me of not doing, i have done.

if trem was on darkplaces or unreal, i'd compare it to q1 or whatever unreal version it was using.  trem would then be using the physics and scale of one of those engines, and its weapons would, in all probability, be reskinned and tweaked versions of the default weapons of those engines.

i'm sorry if my stricter definition than what is casual of what makes a game a game and a mod a mod upsets you.  let me put it another way.  in all likelihood i can take the data files from tremulous, put them into a mod folder in a ioq3 install, and run it.  this would be true of many commercial games as well, if they did not actively attempt to restrict such activity.  for example, if i could decrypt the game data and assets in "transformers: war for cybertron" i could likely run it as a mod from inside UT3.

f50-

in q3 in most game modes, you spawn weak.  you have 125 health, and a machine gun.  you can be killed by 2 rockets, 2 rails, 2 bfg hits. 3 gauntlet hits, and more shots by more weapons.  compared to someone holding a rocket, a railgun, a lightning gun, and/or more, with up to 200 hp and 200 armor + possible regeneration or medkit, or other usable item, yes, a fresh spawn is about as weak as a dretch.  or, unsurprisingly, a naked rifle.  the major difference is that q3 is balanced so that a fresh spawn cannot be hit one time and killed, while tremulous is not.

for clarity:  plague bringer was asking me MY opinion on something, which i had previously stated.  by asking me something that i had allready answered, i came to the conclusion that he had not read my post.  not by holding a different opinion.

feel free to find my opinion whatever you like.  i would not have posted it if i was bothered by the thought of people ridiculing me for it.

i do not think such comparisons to be idiotic, obviously.  i've also used other team based FPSs as examples.  discarding my opinion because "trem =/= quake lol" is frivolous.  if you disagree with me, that's fine.  i think it's idiotic to let executives convince you a mod is a game and for you to pay full game price for it, but i havent mentioned it till just now.  it's called tact, and it's been sadly lacking.  you'll also note that this whole thing spawned off of me using q3 as my last example, after everything else, with the phrase "even the parent game of tremulous, q3 does not suffer from this imbalance".

~1 evo vs 2 evos is a slow kill compared to 3 evos vs ~1 evo?  lets strive for balance.  how do flamer vs mara compare to goon vs bsuit?  thats about the same in terms of credits to evos, right?  i havent bitched about unlagged, as of yet, but having unlagged is another reason that we should do away with 1hko.  do you know how many times ive been mass driven through corners?  unlagged is a kind of melding client side hit detection into a game that is server side hit detection.  planetside, in particular, never let their sniper rifle be a one hit kill because they used CSHD.  yes, at the time there was a popular demand for it to become 1hko, and a company rep, if not a developer, directly stated this.  they considered it unfair to be instantly killed because of ping differences.  i i dont quite remember about the q3 reasoning, but i think it was done to discourage spawncamping.  both are very good reasons to do away with 1hko prior to s3.

the dretch, while agile, can not move faster than a player can aim.  if there were a mechanic of the game limiting your ability to aim, then yes, the dretch would be fine as it is.  

it is an example of balance.  given that this is a team game, no one anything should die in one hit of anything.  moving to your next point, what's forcing the humans to advance?  i think the big reason that humans lose a slight percentage more than aliens is because they fail to recognise what they can do.  why advance from the secure position you can hold anything off from?  call in a ckit and build there.  add turrets to the mix and become even more unassailable.  why is it balanced if it takes, i dont know, 6 or more dretches to dislodge two humans?  why does it take more evos to dislodge them than it takes credits to set that up?  and why do mappers feel the need to add all sorts of fucked up geometry to the walls and ceilings that you have to crawl over that do nothing but keep you in the line of fire longer?

sorry about that last bit.  the whole shotgun and massdriver thing is really bad at the alien's front door on tremor.  i'm sure my own personal hell looks like tremor.

the dretch, at full hp, is a "fresh spawn" and therefore should be protected from oneshots by anything except s3 stuff.  aside from the peripheral stuff with plague defining what a game is, the major reason for the length of my posts are my examples of why 1hko are unbalancing, on the whole.  

any 1v1 would be pointless.  all we would discover is that i am shit with humans, and that is no great mystery.  i for one, am honest in my lack of the ability to dance with rants.  play against a good human, that would be more productive.

luci vs mara:  you agree that chance to miss decreases with distance?  how far away does the mara have to be to deal damage?  assuming players of equal skill, my money is on the luci making the oneshot before the mara can make the kill.

larmor + helmet < 1 evo.  NOTHING can oneshot larmor + helmet.  even including rantcharge, which is really too inconsistent to matter.  meanwhile, as basi there is still psaw and flamer.  and luci.  i know i said i wasent including flamer and saw, but you seem insistent to include rantcharge.  yes, neither the flamer or the saw are "1 hit", neither is the rantcharge.

as for goon pounce, you must have missed this last post:

the reason these weapons are imbalanced, as is goon pounce and chomp, is that they can kill a fresh spawn in a singular hit.  roles aside, i am of the opinion that allowing the killing of fresh spawns with one, singular, hit is bad game balance.  hell, swap dretch and basic basi HP, and reduce adv basi.  that is more balanced than allowing 1hko on fresh spawns.  at least, that way, you must choose to allow these things to oneshot you.  i'm willing to except tyrant and luci from this, as they are s3 equipment, supposedly the ultimate.

i feel that if you remove all but s3 oneshots, less games would devolve into campfests.  i feel it would foster more teamwork as it would require players to work together to kill things quickly.  i feel it would remove the attraction of spawn camping, by making it a far more risky activity.

you asked me many times to back up "RAK does not like 1hkos", yet you missed the paragraph where i explicitly did this.  i've been doing it for three pages, again minus the side discussion with plague bringer.  such hard data as you request, i do not have access to, nor given the statistics shown on tremstats and in the gpp phase results thread, is such data even collected.  if it IS collected, i too, would be interested to see it.

[Meisseli]

havent played urban terror to make the comparison, but it is a safe bet that most of its weapons are only reskinned and slightly modified from q3 base.

Hahahahahahah...

[Plague Bringer]

RAK: I'm tired of fiddling with large quotes so I'm going to follow suit and hope you can piece it together.

You're focusing not on the similarities between games but the engine which is irrelevant. You either missed the part where I mentioned scale and physics, or you ignored it.

You are giving "examples of balance", as you call them. Perhaps this is a difference of opinion, but I don't see any examples of balance. I see examples of differences between games, as well as teams within these games. Also, the idea of being massdrivered through a corner can be extended to any weapon. I can be rifled or pulse rifled or lassgunned through a corner. Should damage be done away with? Why is the stress on one hit kills when extremely fast kills can be just as deadly? Yes, I recognize the difference between one shots and five, but I also recognize the similarity between 0.1 and 0.4 (or however long) of a second. Dodging is something that will help you as much against a rifle as it will against a MD, and it's something that takes practice. My point here is: Concentrated fire is not hard vs. a non-dodging target. Sniping is not hard vs. a non-dodging target. This brings quick kills and one hit kills into the same realm of deadliness, but as the target dodges more both become harder to achieve. The better the target, the worse the targeter.

Also, I think your point about having no limitations to the human aim is a little generous. The unpredictability of some dretches more than makes up for their less than supercharged running ability. You're right, humans can aim as fast  as they want, but they cannot necessarily aim as well as they want. It seems you're assuming perfect situations with the bias for whichever team you're talking up at the moment; Calling a difference of skill an imbalance. I get owned by everything in Q3: TA. I suck. It's balanced.

I spawn camp with a pulse rifle all the fucking time (and in CoD, I prefer SMGs. Anything but an instant kill).

Getting back to your being too generous with examples, F50 has a very good point about lucifer cannons being "hardly a 1HKO weapon". I usually release a half charge because of unforeseeable timing issues. Most of the time if I'm going to get a hit I'm going to get a weak one. Most of the time that I get a "one hit" kill, it's because someone else bled my target's health. I'd hardly call it a consistent or predictable one hit kill weapon unless you're fighting noobs, in which case, difference of skill =/= imbalance. Now, I'll grant that the ability to consistently one hit newbies creates an unfriendly and high-learning curve environment, but I do not think that it's an imbalance.

If anyone here is able to host a server, I'd be happy to (maybe) attempt decompiling GPP, tweaking some values (weakening goon chomp and decreasing delay; weakening goon snipe; weakening luci primary but increasing projectile speed/size/splash; weakening mass driver but decreasing delay; etc.) and compiling a QVM for someone to host. As I understand it this would be as easy as finding the values in question and changing them. No coding knowledge required. Of course, to get any usable values we'd need to get a fair bit of traffic to the server which is unlikely at best. I think that it's obvious we're having a hard time agreeing, but I'd be glad to look at some stats to see if these weapons are truly unbalanced. (GPP phase 8? )

[Qrntz]

If anyone here is able to host a server, I'd be happy to (maybe) attempt decompiling GPP, tweaking some values (weakening goon chomp and decreasing delay; weakening goon snipe; weakening luci primary but increasing projectile speed/size/splash; weakening mass driver but decreasing delay; etc.) and compiling a QVM for someone to host. As I understand it this would be as easy as finding the values in question and changing them. No coding knowledge required.

I can allocate you one. It is pretty far from US, though.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

no worries, you'll note i mainly dropped quotes some time ago.

i did not ignore scale and physics.  i specifically mentioned them.  the "similarities" as you call them, are a result of the engine.  why do, for example, the four quake games all play different?  because of their engines.  why do doom3 and quake4 play so similarly?  because of their engine.  i could use further examples, but this should be enough to illustrate my point.

last post, in specific, i used the example of planetside, where i informed you that they decided, against popular opinion, to not modify the sniper rifle to become a 1hko weapon on the basis that it is unfair and unfun because of CSHD (unlagged analogue).  the difference between getting shot through a corner by a MD and a rifle is that the MD kills in one shot.  it is unfair and unfun to be subjected to one hit kills when you leave a "ghost hitbox trail" that people of various pings can hit.  dodging is near useless on unlagged.  it does not matter if i zig or zag, because my path will likely cross LoS with my "ghost hitbox" and i'll get killed anyway.  peeking around a corner for an instant is also quite stupid with unlagged.  i expose myself for less than .5 a second, yet that cursed MD gets me 3-4 feet from the corner.  in short, 1hko would be more tolerable without unlagged.  it would still be bad balance, in my opinion, but it would only be half as unfair and unfun.

by all means, camp with the pulse.  that's better than camping with something that kills in a single shot.  there exists the chance for escape, more-so because the pulse is not hitscan.

1/2 charge = 1hko on mara.  if you are missing a lot, practice with it more.  or learn what areas to fight in areas where aliens can not conceivably dodge.  despite all the personal experience examples we have both been using, this is not about player skill, but what is capable with the equipment.  the equipment's capabilities are where the imbalance is.  the possibility of such oneshots is enough to be unbalancing.  after all, it's not like you cannot just spam and be reasonably assured that anything not a tyrant will die.  you see this a lot on the long hall on nievius.  or all of drift.

again, i'd like to see such stats as well, but again, given the information on tremstats and the last GPP phase data, it is doubtful this information is even collected.  nowhere do i see "massdrivers killed dretches x times" or anything like that.  

i wonder how the data is aggregated.  condumps?  is there any practical way to actually record this data?  i might be able to whip up a python parser if there is.

also, whip up the files, and i'll host the server.  i have a fairly decent (by modern standards) computer, and a damn good connection.  i'll run whatever qvm you whip up in two equal periods, one with unlagged, one without.

[Plague Bringer]

While I understand that potential is a big factor in weapon strength, I still think you're being too generous with regards to granting every luci wielder unlimited ability to time, aim, and dodge. Arguing for imbalance on paper is a lot different than arguing for it in practice. Assuming perfection, the luci is a ridiculously OP weapon (and in fact, the MD would be too), but you seem to neglect that most people miss shots as much as they hit them. To say that I have no ability to "get away" from an MD, unlagged or not, is a little silly. Potential to 1hko does not guarantee a 1hko.

Now, I'm off to read up on decompiling and C and such (didn't you say you modded? )

[Tremulant]

i did not ignore scale and physics.  i specifically mentioned them.  the "similarities" as you call them, are a result of the engine.  why do, for example, the four quake games all play different?  because of their engines.  why do doom3 and quake4 play so similarly?  because of their engine.

Yeah, American McGee's Alice is almost indistinguishable from Elite Force because of the shared engine, and i bet brink plays just like Doom3.

[Plague Bringer]

i did not ignore scale and physics.  i specifically mentioned them.  the "similarities" as you call them, are a result of the engine.  why do, for example, the four quake games all play different?  because of their engines.  why do doom3 and quake4 play so similarly?  because of their engine.

Yeah, American McGee's Alice is almost indistinguishable from Elite Force because of the shared engine, and i bet brink plays just like Doom3.

What Tremulant is saying is that the games play differently because the developers didn't bother to deviate from the engine that much. It's the developer's choice, not a limitation. It is and has been my contention that Tremulous has deviated far enough away from Quake 3 to not be compared so closely, but I think that debate (between us at least) is done.

[F50]

Now, I'm off to read up on decompiling and C and such (didn't you say you modded? )

Decompiling? No need for something so radical.

"svn co svn://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk"
"vim trunk/src/game/tremulous.h"

tremulous.h contains everything you need to tweak damage and rate-of-fire settings. Compile that to a qvm and you are good to go.


RAK, I will consent that the flamer has a considerable advantage over the (advanced) marauder, and some people have called in imbalance (mostly due to the flamer's cost). I should note that the regular dragoon, which costs the same is considerably better against the flamer, due to the way the weapons work, however. I'll take you dragoon vs bsuit (+250cr for a decent weapon, given ~3 credits that should be pretty ample) without hesitation. If you want to prove that 1HKOs are imbalanced in practice (given non-perfect aim), come, set a time and I'll see about getting a few players there to 1vs1 and we can even see how skill factors into things. As I said before, I think you just suck at dretching.

You have brought up a lot of anecdotal tales to support your imbalance claim, and have attempted many comparisons to other games, but this needs to be tested in-game, and has been tested, in-game for the past GPP phases, and throughout 1.1. Statistics (which can lie), have been gathered, other opinions have been gathered, so I need something more than your frustration. You don't like 1HKOs, but you cannot show me how this effects win ratios, because IMHO, it doesn't nearly as much as you seem to say. So come, prove it in-game. I want to see you get 1000 mass driver kills in the next month and become a pro at clay dretching. I want to see you bag marauders by the dozen with a lucifer cannon (after all, they are easy to hit ^^ ).

Come, let us play.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

tremulant, you missed this a few posts back -

i'm sorry if my stricter definition than what is casual of what makes a game a game and a mod a mod upsets you.  let me put it another way.  in all likelihood i can take the data files from tremulous, put them into a mod folder in a ioq3 install, and run it.  this would be true of many commercial games as well, if they did not actively attempt to restrict such activity.  for example, if i could decrypt the game data and assets in "transformers: war for cybertron" i could likely run it as a mod from inside UT3.

if they did not change the engine and interface for drift to the extent that i can no longer run it from doom3/quake4, then i shall consider it a mod.  as a mod, i would not consider paying full game price for it.

f50 -

i do not need to show you how it affects win ratios.  i never claimed it did.  i claimed that 1hko is unfair and unfun.  i suppose i could have worded all this much better from the start, but alas, years of internet exposure have turned me into a sarcastic prick.  perhaps i should have said -

"hey guys, i find 1hko's to be unfair an unfun.  perhaps you have never considered any alternatives, as i remember it was so frustrating in 1.1 that i quit tremulous for a good three or four years.  gpp has improved balance tremendously, but perhaps we out to give this a shot.  other games have done it this way....*insert other game examples*.  well, glad to get that off my chest.  be your hat ingame!"

also, 1v1 is pointless.  this is a team game.  you'd need several games with several mixes of teams of several sizes to get good data.  an operation kind of like US1.  i am more than willing to host such a server, though i really do not have the HDD space for the logs.  to be completely honest, i dont even have the HDD space to do the latest kernel update.  so, if i am to host such a server, i'll need someplace to drop the logs off, preferably in close-to-realtime,

in closing, i really dont like playing human.  i'll do it from time to time, but not often.  and when i do, i avoid the weapons i complain about, generally.  i'll use them here and there, both to get the idea of what it's like on the other side of the barrel, and to devise ways around such weapons.

i'd rather get a thousand more basi kills anyway.

[F50]

One further question, would giving the mass driver a 3 round burst over 0.1 or 0.2 seconds (the full three rounds would have the same stats as the current mass driver) change anything in your opinion?