Small stuff....

[Conzul]

1: Wallwalking speed 'Instant': Who uses this? Why does it exist?

2: The Overmind, Hive, and booster ghost models are full size, but none of the other alien structures are - why? It would be more helpful when building if the ghost templates are full sized for all of them. That way we can see if an egg would be visible if built in such and such a place, or if a tube can be shot at a certain elevation, etc. Played for years, just noticed this

3: I've been noticing this bug which I have no idea how to reproduce. When attacking a turret as an alien, the turret will randomly stop firing/tracking me and face its default build orientation. Has anyone else noticed this? It happens mostly on ATCS and Nano, and I always seem to be attacking with mara swipe when it happens...

4: The Hovel is missing from my buildlist.

5: Basic Granger lacking wallwalk. I imagine this is to prevent them from building spawns where s1 humans can never get at them, but aside from that the limitation doesn't make sense to me. Why not just them wallwalk, and prevent them from building eggs while wallwalking? That way there's actually something to do during the time it takes aliens to get to s2. Too complicated? Probably.

6: Basilisk grab range: Did it get nerfed/changed? I can't seem to hold anyone anymore. They're always whipping over and shooting me. Either human movement isn't restricted enough by grab, or I suck. Probably both.

Discuss?

[Demolution]

I've seen a few videos in which people clearly use instant wallwalking speed. Why assume no one does?

[OhaiReapd]

Hovel was taken out in GPP....... I use instant, no wallwalk for grangers, they are powerful enough as it is.

[wannabe]

1: Wallwalking speed 'Instant': Who uses this? Why does it exist?

I am using instant wallwalking speed. Why shouldn't it exist? You can also use your custom settings too.

2: The Overmind, Hive, and booster ghost models are full size, but none of the other alien structures are - why? It would be more helpful when building if the ghost templates are full sized for all of them. That way we can see if an egg would be visible if built in such and such a place, or if a tube can be shot at a certain elevation, etc. Played for years, just noticed this

Yeah, there is no reason to not to do this but they won't.

3: I've been noticing this bug which I have no idea how to reproduce. When attacking a turret as an alien, the turret will randomly stop firing/tracking me and face its default build orientation. Has anyone else noticed this? It happens mostly on ATCS and Nano, and I always seem to be attacking with mara swipe when it happens...

I've not noticed this before so I don't know.

4: The Hovel is missing from my buildlist.

From your buildlist. What are you going to do with the hovel though? Camp in that for the whole game or what? Also yeah actually I would camp in that while the humans are rushing our base and after they killed the hovel (they don't know its health though) then I would be like run run run run!

5: Basic Granger lacking wallwalk. I imagine this is to prevent them from building spawns where s1 humans can never get at them, but aside from that the limitation doesn't make sense to me. Why not just them wallwalk, and prevent them from building eggs while wallwalking? That way there's actually something to do during the time it takes aliens to get to s2. Too complicated? Probably.

Nah, it's ok that way.

6: Basilisk grab range: Did it get nerfed/changed? I can't seem to hold anyone anymore. They're always whipping over and shooting me. Either human movement isn't restricted enough by grab, or I suck. Probably both.

Dunno. Keep aiming at the human and get behind him.

[Conzul]

no wallwalk for grangers, they are powerful enough as it is.

LOL

@ #1: HOW?!? I just tried it again and I think it would mess with your head...how can you be productive with that level of tumbling? I never said it wasn't being used but daym!

@ #4: All of your sarcasm detectors are apparently borked....

[David]

Wow, that post was a wall of text that said nothing.

That's an impressively low S/N ratio, even for these parts.

EDIT: this post aimed at wannabe.

[A Spork]

Re: #6:
Grab range was increased from 1.1

[wannabe]

Wow, that post was a wall of text that said nothing.

That's an impressively low S/N ratio, even for these parts.

EDIT: this post aimed at wannabe.

Nothing is less than anything.
You are the one who said nothing that is related to that topic.

[wannabe]

no wallwalk for grangers, they are powerful enough as it is.

LOL

@ #1: HOW?!? I just tried it again and I think it would mess with your head...how can you be productive with that level of tumbling? I never said it wasn't being used but daym!

@ #4: All of your sarcasm detectors are apparently borked....

No, it would mess with your head only. Just because you can't play with instant wallwalk speed, it doesn't have to be removed. Alot of new players can't play as dretch or any other alien class. I think they should be removed too. Also, I don't give a shit about trolling or sarcasm. I am answering the way I want to. Keep being sarcastic but it's pointless.

[Conzul]

Hah, fair enough.

[Nux]

The Overmind, Hive, and booster ghost models are full size, but none of the other alien structures are - why? It would be more helpful when building if the ghost templates are full sized for all of them. That way we can see if an egg would be visible if built in such and such a place, or if a tube can be shot at a certain elevation, etc. Played for years, just noticed this

Actually they all show thier respective first frame of animation in the blueprint and it's just that some structures are small in thier first frame and some aren't. The Hive, for example, you say is full size in the blueprint but look at the size of the middle ribbed sphere before and after building it.

[Conzul]

The Overmind, Hive, and booster ghost models are full size, but none of the other alien structures are - why? It would be more helpful when building if the ghost templates are full sized for all of them. That way we can see if an egg would be visible if built in such and such a place, or if a tube can be shot at a certain elevation, etc. Played for years, just noticed this

Actually they all show thier respective first frame of animation in the blueprint and it's just that some structures are small in thier first frame and some aren't. The Hive, for example, you say is full size in the blueprint but look at the size of the middle ribbed sphere before and after building it.

Oh ok I didn't see it that way. Then it would be more helpful if the ghost templates showed a full size version, just for better building reference.

[/dev/humancontroller]

5: Basic Granger lacking wallwalk. I imagine this is to prevent them from building spawns where s1 humans can never get at them, but aside from that the limitation doesn't make sense to me. Why not just [let] them wallwalk, and prevent them from building eggs while wallwalking?

now that's an epic idea. even the human reachability argument is voided by the fact that a dretch is able to lift any class to almost any location reachable with wallwalk. so in most cases, the only thing that an advanced granger can do that a non-advanced granger can't do, is to place buildables on steep surfaces, walls, and ceilings. and that ability can be systematically limited for non-advanced grangers.

otherwise, if the inability for non-advanced grangers to wallwalk is to be retained, the dretch's (or any other wallwalker's) lifting ability has to be removed. on our servers we'll employ the allow-wallwalk-for-non-advanced-grangers solution, at least until someone decides to remove the lifting ability.

[Asvarox]

5: Basic Granger lacking wallwalk. I imagine this is to prevent them from building spawns where s1 humans can never get at them, but aside from that the limitation doesn't make sense to me. Why not just them wallwalk, and prevent them from building eggs while wallwalking? That way there's actually something to do during the time it takes aliens to get to s2. Too complicated? Probably.

1) Turn on wallwalk, get to a place where humans cant reach (like that thing in karith near the elevator room
2) Place some eggs there
3)
4) Profit!

[CorSair]

5: Basic Granger lacking wallwalk. I imagine this is to prevent them from building spawns where s1 humans can never get at them, but aside from that the limitation doesn't make sense to me. Why not just them wallwalk, and prevent them from building eggs while wallwalking? That way there's actually something to do during the time it takes aliens to get to s2. Too complicated? Probably.

1) Turn on wallwalk, get to a place where humans cant reach (like that thing in karith near the elevator room
2) Place some eggs there
3)
4) Profit!

Wow! Can you show video where stage 1 granger does that? I would like to learn that...

[/dev/humancontroller]

you two are so incoherent.

[Nux]

a dretch is able to lift any class to almost any location reachable with wallwalk.
...
the dretch's (or any other wallwalker's) lifting ability has to be removed.
...
remove the lifting ability.

I'm not sure what version you've been playing all this time but you've not been able to do that for years.

EDIT: Well, that is unless it's player 'nudge' that does it. Have you been playing on servers without 'nudge'? Have you been playing?

[/dev/humancontroller]

a dretch is able to lift any class to almost any location reachable with wallwalk.
...
the dretch's (or any other wallwalker's) lifting ability has to be removed.
...
remove the lifting ability.

I'm not sure what version you've been playing all this time but you've not been able to do that for years.

EDIT: Well, that is unless it's player 'nudge' that does it. Have you been playing on servers without 'nudge'? Have you been playing?

dretchlifting has always been possible, and is still possible, even with a g_shove value of, for example, 15. a g_shove value of 0 just makes dretchlifting a lot easier, and is the default setting.

[sirshiz]

5: Basic Granger lacking wallwalk. I imagine this is to prevent them from building spawns where s1 humans can never get at them, but aside from that the limitation doesn't make sense to me. Why not just them wallwalk, and prevent them from building eggs while wallwalking? That way there's actually something to do during the time it takes aliens to get to s2. Too complicated? Probably.

1) Turn on wallwalk, get to a place where humans cant reach (like that thing in karith near the elevator room
2) Place some eggs there
3)
4) Profit!

Wow! Can you show video where stage 1 granger does that? I would like to learn that...

CorSair I hope you're intentionally not understanding what Asvarox is saying because otherwise you need some major comprehension skills. Or maybe I do?? 

a dretch is able to lift any class to almost any location reachable with wallwalk.
...
the dretch's (or any other wallwalker's) lifting ability has to be removed.
...
remove the lifting ability.

I'm not sure what version you've been playing all this time but you've not been able to do that for years.

EDIT: Well, that is unless it's player 'nudge' that does it. Have you been playing on servers without 'nudge'? Have you been playing?

dretchlifting has always been possible, and is still possible, even with a g_shove value of, for example, 15. a g_shove value of 0 just makes dretchlifting a lot easier, and is the default setting.

Okay dretch lifting may be possible but it requires a lot more effort for it to be useful compared to wallwalking. For one, it requires more than one participant. For two, it allows for easy targets while in the process. Regardless I don't think dretch lifting should be allowed.

[CorSair]

CorSair I hope you're intentionally not understanding what Asvarox is saying because otherwise you need some major comprehension skills. Or maybe I do?? 

Or maybe I should learn more about sarcasm...

[Plague Bringer]

Dretch lifting is not an argument for granger wallwalk. A more sensible argument would be that stages are arbitrary. There is nothing to say that humans will reach S2 before or at the same time as aliens reaching S2. Therefore, there is still a way for aliens to build inaccessible bases. No, it cannot be done immediately, but yes, it can be done when H is still S1. That implies that the problem is not so much aliens being able to build inaccessible bases when HS1, but rather aliens being able to build inaccessible (or strong) bases right away. All that said, since the "problem" being discussed is the stage imbalances that would come with AS1 granger wallwalking... The tech to combat well built wall&ceiling bases doesn't come until HS2. Being unable to place structures on walls and ceilings as a normal granger while still being able to wallwalk is unintuitive and stupid. Players will think that they can't place structures on walls and ceilings ever.

Also, CorSair, Asvarox was giving us an example of a situation where S1 granger wallwalking would be imba.

[/dev/humancontroller]

Dretch lifting is not an argument for granger wallwalk.

it is. or more precisely: no non-advanced granger wallwalk is an argument for no dretchlifting. until dretchlifting is fixed, there is no reason not to allow granger non-advanced granger wallwalk (with the exception of some minor additional balance issues).

Being unable to place structures on walls and ceilings as a normal granger while still being able to wallwalk is unintuitive and stupid. Players will think that they can't place structures on walls and ceilings ever.

players can't be THAT stupid. they've learned that buildables can't be built outside creep because of the error messages they've received. they will also learn that they will need advanced grangers to build on steep surfaces, walls, and ceilings, because of appropriate error messages.

PS: disallowing dretch lifting should be as easy as not allowing people to jump from the top of wallwalkers (the wallwalkers should be pushed down).

[Nux]

no non-advanced granger wallwalk is an argument for no dretchlifting.

Dretch-lifting isn't easy, even when nudge is off (requires teamwork for starters). Your argument seems to be that if something can't be done easily then it shouldn't be possible at all. I don't see the motivation for thinking this. Surely it's the things that are hard to pull off in games that makes them fun.

[OhaiReapd]

no non-advanced granger wallwalk is an argument for no dretchlifting.

Dretch-lifting isn't easy, even when nudge is off (requires teamwork for starters). Your argument seems to be that if something can't be done easily then it shouldn't be possible at all. I don't see the motivation for thinking this. Surely it's the things that are hard to pull off in games that makes them fun.

I WANT A TINY GRANGER ELE BUILT INTO EVERY MAP. GRANGER IS HANDICAPPED, SO WHY NOT?

[Lecavalier]

I can't even remember the last time I saw a good dretch lift.  Or a successful one at least.

[/dev/humancontroller]

Dretch-lifting isn't easy, even when nudge is off (requires teamwork for starters).

with an appropriate definition of easy, dretchlifting is easy. note that you can try dretchlifting all day, without the humans bothering you for most of the time.
dretchlifting with g_shove set to 0 is a piece of cake, seriously.

no non-advanced granger wallwalk is an argument for no dretchlifting.

Your argument seems to be that if something can't be done easily then it shouldn't be possible at all. I don't see the motivation for thinking this.

that's not the argument. the argument is the following:
definition: a crappy situation is a situation where one side forces a win, a stalemate, or some lead, without much influence by the other side. the situation is crappier as the influence by the other side decreases.
if an objective of the game logic is to prevent crappy situations, then dretchlifting should be removed (or something else should be done for the humans). (so if dretchlifting should not be removed, then it's not an objective of the game logic to prevent crappy situations.) the disability for non-advanced grangers to wallwalk is evidence to think that it is an objective of the game logic to prevent crappy situations. however, even without this evidence it's intuitive for a game logic to prevent crappy situations.

Surely it's the things that are hard to pull off in games that makes them fun.

that's just not generally true. and fun for who? a couple of "mathematical" (counter-)examples:

• you can start teamkilling dragoons with your granger (it's hard to kill a dragoon with a granger). it may be fun for you, but (1) it's not fun for your teammate (that is, if he doesn't agree with your teamkilling acts), and (2) the humans don't give a shit to your epic teamkilling skills, and they'd rather ask for a challenge, than a teamkilling troll on the alien team.
• you can implement a "hax chessgames for grangers" mod on your server, which basically is about: any granger can start playing a private chess game against a good computer chess player; if the granger wins, then the aliens win the Tremulous game. again, you may laugh due to your win, but most people don't give a shit about your chess skills, and they get frustrated that the game ends because someone pulled off a hard-to-do thing.

[Plague Bringer]

oh, /dev/h. always being funny with your poor (or excellent) understanding and subsequent abuse of semantics.

[Conzul]

The tech to combat well built wall&ceiling bases doesn't come until HS2.

I agree with all of it except this. MDs and rifles are more than adept at killing wall/ceiling structures, regardless of their elevation. The only problematic exceptions to this are within the geometry of certain maps; say, karith, where s1 humans can't kill an egg built up on that high platform outside the elevator room. Even then, humans can tower and be able to kill anyone who spawns.

    My argument for Basic Granger wallwalk was so that it could build acid tubes on the ceiling or walls in the time before AS2 comes, resulting in slightly better survivability for early bases. Since OMs and Barricades can't be built on ceilings, all the basic granger could really build would be tubes. I had speculated that eggs would be disabled from being built on ceilings by this granger, for reasons above...

[Plague Bringer]

I was referring to helmets and nades - things that allow H to A) know where the base is, and B) effectively assault, say, the Window Room.

Again, I really think that being able to wallwalk but not being able to build some or most structures is unintuitive and it doesn't really make sense. I do agree that S1 alien bases are rather suckish, and perhaps since repeaters are now S1 for humans, the proper response is to allow A to ceilingbase. I think it should be all or nothing, though.

[Conzul]

I was referring to helmets and nades - things that allow H to A) know where the base is, and B) effectively assault, say, the Window Room.

Again, I really think that being able to wallwalk but not being able to build some or most structures is unintuitive and it doesn't really make sense. I do agree that S1 alien bases are rather suckish, and perhaps since repeaters are now S1 for humans, the proper response is to allow A to ceilingbase. I think it should be all or nothing, though.

Makes sense.