New: Vorago (b1)

[Xedoh]

As long as specula undergoes (not very intensive) playtesting, I decided to complete an old project. My goal was to make a small, symmetric map for smaller games.
The map was somewhat inspired by nano, and I hope it will provide good and balanced gameplay. I also tried to improve my design-skills but (especially if compared to an artistic masterpiece like cruz) I still have quite a way to go. Anyway, I hope you can enjoy the map as much as I enjoyed creating it.

Download:
http://caldazar.at/tremulous/base/map-vorago_b1.pk3


Obligatory random hallway pic... Check




A big "thank you" to ingar for providing such an awesome skybox. It really fits the color-theme.

[CorSair]

Good challenger to Nano?

For me, it looks rugged, but I still like it, for some odd reason.

Only big problem in this map is, that I needs gameplay test. Nothing seems to be broken, or need more clip, when I initially tested it.


Few questions I have though.

Are these in textures, or is shader/lighting messed up?

And to be more precise, that black stripes under the middle grating in first pic, and those black spots under that grating. Although second looks ok.

[foot_on_teh_hill]

I did a quick run-through of the map and I think it could be a good map with some improvements. The layout and the color scheme reminds me a little of the sewers in KOTOR.

First of all, the map looks quite dull to me. Hallways feel too similar to each other and the map is almost entirely lit by white lights. I'd suggest you use coloured lights to differentiate between alien/human sides. You could then try vary the brightness and saturation of the lights in the different hallways.

Since I haven't seen the map in action I am not sure, but it also seems to me that the map is balanced in favour of humans. To get to the human base, dretches have to go through large spaces and straight hallways with few or no places to hide, thus making easy targets. I'd suggest you make some intrusions in some of the hallways, and place some obstacles(boxes?) to hide behind. This would also ease base-building and, of course, make it easier to differentiate between areas.

Also, I find some of the design decisions questionable. For example, in the hallway featured in the picture the door to the left easily blends into the other yellow panels, and is easy to miss if you don't know it's there. In the same picture there is a strongly-coloured door which you can't get through, even though it's appearance suggests otherwise. I'd suggest you remove the strong colour from the door, making it blend more into the background, and maybe give the strong colour to the yellow door instead.

In the outside areas there is also a path being blocked by an invisible wall. I strongly advise you to change it to a solid door, as I doubt anyone likes to be blocked by invisible walls. The buttons triggering the elevators in the vents could also use some work. Not only are the buttons a bit easy to miss, but the player doesn't really expect them to even work after seeing identical looking, but nonworking buttons in one of the hallways. I'd suggest moving the buttons closer to the actual elevator, and removing the nonworking buttons in the hallway.

Lastly, I want to make some minor suggestions. Don't you think humans should start with a Medistation? And I think it would look nice with some windows in the rooms next to the outside areas.

[/dev/humancontroller]

In the outside areas there is also a path being blocked by an invisible wall. I strongly advise you to change it to a solid door, as I doubt anyone likes to be blocked by invisible walls.

like the invisible walls on ATCS, Karith, Uncreation, etc..

[/dev/humancontroller]

i question the nobuild flags on certain surfaces.

• outside i am able to build on the (invisible) ceiling, the rafters, and some non-vertical surfaces of the walls, but not on the vertical surfaces of the walls. i should be able to build on any parts of walls (i'd say), but not on the invisible areas. see outside.jpg.
• there's similar inconsistency in the central room. i gather you wanted to avoid "troller toaster" eggs; i'd say that's hard to do without denying building, in the central room, on all of the rafters and also the handrails.

fix the grammar in the location names either like so (syntax: old -> proposed new):

• Hallways Red -> Red Hallways
• Main Hall Red -> Main Red Hall
• Vents Red -> Red Vents
• Entrance Red -> Red Entrance

or by adding commas, as in:

• Hallways Red -> Hallways, Red
• Main Hall Red -> Main Hall, Red
• Vents Red -> Vents, Red
• Entrance Red -> Entrance, Red

futhermore, i'd rename the Pit to something like the Fan Room.

[foot_on_teh_hill]

In the outside areas there is also a path being blocked by an invisible wall. I strongly advise you to change it to a solid door, as I doubt anyone likes to be blocked by invisible walls.

like the invisible walls on ATCS, Karith, Uncreation, etc..

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about the "ceiling". I'm talking about this place(see invisiblewall.jpg). It looks like you could hide in this small "room", but you are blocked by an invisible wall. Since it's so easy to put a door here instead of an invisible wall I see no reason not to do that.

[/dev/humancontroller]

In the outside areas there is also a path being blocked by an invisible wall. I strongly advise you to change it to a solid door, as I doubt anyone likes to be blocked by invisible walls.

like the invisible walls on ATCS, Karith, Uncreation, etc..

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about the "ceiling". I'm talking about this place(see invisiblewall.jpg). It looks like you could hide in this small "room", but you are blocked by an invisible wall.

not at all; i knew exactly which invisible wall you were talking about.
on ATCS, it looks like you could fly over the forcefield-fence, but you are blocked by an invisible wall.

[sirshiz]

In the outside areas there is also a path being blocked by an invisible wall. I strongly advise you to change it to a solid door, as I doubt anyone likes to be blocked by invisible walls.

like the invisible walls on ATCS, Karith, Uncreation, etc..

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about the "ceiling". I'm talking about this place(see invisiblewall.jpg). It looks like you could hide in this small "room", but you are blocked by an invisible wall.

not at all; i knew exactly which invisible wall you were talking about.
on ATCS, it looks like you could fly over the forcefield-fence, but you are blocked by an invisible wall.

humancontroller just because other maps did stuff in a shitty manner doesn't mean it should be a continuing trend. 

[Plague Bringer]

Furthermore, the area above the fence on ATCS is not easily accessible and therefore not inviting. Imagine not being able to enter the bunker on ATCS because of an invisible wall. The logic fails because your examples are not related to the issue in question: A ground level room (albeit a small one) that looks like it should be accessible, but isn't because of an invisible wall, NOT an area that is taken up purely by sky and doesn't look like (from a design perspective, not a "you can fly anywhere in real life" perspective - because that would be retarded) it should be accessible.

[/dev/humancontroller]

Furthermore, the area above the fence on ATCS is not easily accessible and therefore not inviting. Imagine not being able to enter the bunker on ATCS because of an invisible wall. The logic fails because your examples are not related to the issue in question: A ground level room (albeit a small one) that looks like it should be accessible, but isn't because of an invisible wall, NOT an area that is taken up purely by sky and doesn't look like (from a design perspective, not a "you can fly anywhere in real life" perspective - because that would be retarded) it should be accessible.

your logic fails because you compare the design perspective of the invisible ceiling on ATCS and the visual perspective of the invisible wall on Verago. in fact the Verago tunnel does not look inviting because it's darkening, while the ATCS ceiling is easily accessable (with a jetpack or lucifer cannon) and does look inviting.

humancontroller just because other maps did stuff in a shitty manner doesn't mean it should be a continuing trend. 

which is just saying that both Verago AND ATCS should be fixed.

[sirshiz]

Furthermore, the area above the fence on ATCS is not easily accessible and therefore not inviting. Imagine not being able to enter the bunker on ATCS because of an invisible wall. The logic fails because your examples are not related to the issue in question: A ground level room (albeit a small one) that looks like it should be accessible, but isn't because of an invisible wall, NOT an area that is taken up purely by sky and doesn't look like (from a design perspective, not a "you can fly anywhere in real life" perspective - because that would be retarded) it should be accessible.

your logic fails because you compare the design perspective of the invisible ceiling on ATCS and the visual perspective of the invisible wall on Verago. in fact the Verago tunnel does not look inviting because it's darkening, while the ATCS ceiling is easily accessable (with a jetpack or lucifer cannon) and does look inviting.

humancontroller just because other maps did stuff in a shitty manner doesn't mean it should be a continuing trend. 

which is just saying that both Verago AND ATCS should be fixed.

1) It could easily be rationalized that the ATCS forcefield extends far beyond its visible borders.
2) You like to argue in a strange way. You say it doesn't look inviting because it's dark but that it also should be fixed. Okay? So it should be fixed. We're all in agreement. I still don't know why you mention other maps that this mapmaker isn't responsible for. 

[/dev/humancontroller]

It could easily be rationalized that the ATCS forcefield extends far beyond its visible borders.

why is the ATCS forcefield even partially visible then?
why does it look like the forcefield is generated by the fence poles in the areas between the poles?

I still don't know why you mention other maps that this mapmaker isn't responsible for.

problem?

[Plague Bringer]

I am not comparing a design perspective vs a visual perspective. I compared how inviting the two looked from both a gameplay and a visual perspective. They both look like they should be accessible just because we know that IRL you would be able to reach such areas (though Vorago is a lot more inviting than ATCS - I'll explain why later). From a gameplay perspective, however, ATCS looks like it should not be accessible, and I highly doubt that anyone would honestly be surprised when they tried and found out that they couldn't reach it. In Vorago, the area in question looks more accessible because it is available to all classes at all times. There are no gimmicks involved with reaching the area (luci jumping) and it is not an area restricted by stage (jetpack). It's not incredibly above, below, or out or otherwise out of the way enough to make it look like it shouldn't be accessible (unlike the uppermost areas in ATCS)

[/dev/humancontroller]

From a gameplay perspective, however, ATCS looks like it should not be accessible, and I highly doubt that anyone would honestly be surprised when they tried and found out that they couldn't reach it.

"looks like this should be true from a gameplay perspective" is quite a retarded source of reasoning. something either should or should not be true from a perspective of certain game design objectives. from a perspective of a limited map area game design objective, neither should be accessible; but that's actually a question of where you want the map to be cut.
btw, you just don't recall how much surprized you were years ago, when you first discovered the invisible ceiling on ATCS.

In Vorago, the area in question looks more accessible because it is available to all classes at all times.

this has only to do with the visual nature of the maps.

There are no gimmicks involved with reaching the area (luci jumping) and it is not an area restricted by stage (jetpack).

restriction by stage just increases the plausibility behind reachability from a perspective of a work to earn gameplay design objective.

It's not incredibly above, below, or out or otherwise out of the way enough to make it look like it shouldn't be accessible (unlike the uppermost areas in ATCS)

it is out of the way by being at the very edge of the map. it is, also, dark enough to make it look like it shouldn't be accessible.

PS: the main doors behind the human base on Transit is more compelling to mention. it looks fully accessible (by a crouching human, for example), is not darkened or fogged, and is not even at the edge of the map due to a large exterior area.

[Plague Bringer]

The area behind H def on transit is very visibly blocked off and not physically accessible (last time I checked) by a crouched human regardless of invisible walls. You could say the same for an area by the 4-door room on Nexus 6. There's a crack in the floor. Neither of these are problems because they don't look accessible and they don't even look like they should be accessible.

Your theory about my forgetting whether or not I can get on the roof of ATCS is... poorly supported at the very least.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Can't we just agree that:
1) it's not quite clear whether the dark corridor in Vorago is accessible without trying
2) it would be if there was a closed door there
3) it would be better if it was clear where you can/can't go just by looking?
The fact that other maps can be somewhat ambiguous about this is irrelevant.

[/dev/humancontroller]

The area behind H def on transit is very visibly blocked off and not physically accessible (last time I checked) by a crouched human regardless of invisible walls. You could say the same for an area by the 4-door room on Nexus 6. There's a crack in the floor. Neither of these are problems because they don't look accessible

Transit hasn't changed since Tremulous 1.1.0. There is no "4-door room" on Nexus 6. Both the door opening at the default human base on Transit and the floor opening in the "red room" on Niveus look clearly accessible by (crouching) humans and dretches.
i have lost my confidence in that you know what you're talking about.

and they don't even look like they should be accessible.

again, this is based on some "looks like it should be" theory you came up with without explanation.
(btw there's yet another definition for it should, and that is: the author intended it to. with this definition, what should be fixed on the maps are bugs. neither of the mentioned invisible walls should be removed on Transit/ATCS/Vorago, because the author clearly put the walls there intentionally.)

Your theory about my forgetting whether or not I can get on the roof of ATCS is... poorly supported at the very least.

i have no idea what you've just said.

[CorSair]

Can't we just agree that:
1) it's not quite clear whether the dark corridor in Vorago is accessible without trying
2) it would be if there was a closed door there
3) it would be better if it was clear where you can/can't go just by looking?
The fact that other maps can be somewhat ambiguous about this is irrelevant.

Finally some sense I say.


You should make another thread about of finer points of making invisible walls. This is not the proper place for it.

[Plague Bringer]

The area behind H def on transit is very visibly blocked off and not physically accessible (last time I checked) by a crouched human regardless of invisible walls. You could say the same for an area by the 4-door room on Nexus 6. There's a crack in the floor. Neither of these are problems because they don't look accessible

Transit hasn't changed since Tremulous 1.1.0. There is no "4-door room" on Nexus 6. Both the door opening at the default human base on Transit and the floor opening in the "red room" on Niveus look clearly accessible by (crouching) humans and dretches.
i have lost my confidence in that you know what you're talking about.

and they don't even look like they should be accessible.

again, this is based on some "looks like it should be" theory you came up with without explanation.
(btw there's yet another definition for it should, and that is: the author intended it to. with this definition, what should be fixed on the maps are bugs. neither of the mentioned invisible walls should be removed on Transit/ATCS/Vorago, because the author clearly put the walls there intentionally.)

Your theory about my forgetting whether or not I can get on the roof of ATCS is... poorly supported at the very least.

i have no idea what you've just said.

Your faith should be lost in my ability to remember which map is which after many months of hiatus from the game, and that is all. Don't pretend that a map name mixup is anything to discredit my argument. That's pulling at strings that simply aren't there; I've given you more credit than that.

How the hell do either of those areas look accessible? They are too small.

Regarding the author's intent: Who says the author is the best person to make design decisions about their own product? What the hell do you think CC is for? And yes, the invisible walls are there for a reason. To prevent access to inaccessible areas of the map. The area should be blocked off by a goddamned door. I'm done here.

[/dev/humancontroller]

How the hell do either of those areas look accessible? They are too small.

you've gotta be kidding me. see the screenshots.

Who says the author is the best person to make design decisions about their own product?

if you are judging the map yourself, then you cannot use "it looks like it should", only "it should", or even "in my opinion it should".

To prevent access to inaccessible areas of the map.

ROFL. that quote is a candidate to be included in someone's signature.

[Xedoh]

Okay, the topic kinda escalated a bit

Are these in textures, or is shader/lighting messed up?

I guess those stripes have something to do with my compile-options, i'll check those. I should have looked out for something like that before I released .

I'd suggest you use coloured lights to differentiate between alien/human sides. You could then try vary the brightness and saturation of the lights in the different hallways.

I really like the idea of colored lights, this could really add something currently "missing". I dunno about the brightness, etc. It didn't really seem that similar to me.

I'd suggest you make some intrusions in some of the hallways, and place some obstacles(boxes?) to hide behind. This would also ease base-building and, of course, make it easier to differentiate between areas.

I also think humans have an advantage currently, but only playtesting can prove/disprove that. I will fix design-flaws, etc. in b2 and start playtesting then.

I'd suggest you remove the strong colour from the door, making it blend more into the background, and maybe give the strong colour to the yellow door instead.

Good idea, that's really something you don't notice that mush when you are the author, I will try to change that.

The buttons triggering the elevators in the vents could also use some work. Not only are the buttons a bit easy to miss, but the player doesn't really expect them to even work after seeing identical looking, but nonworking buttons in one of the hallways. I'd suggest moving the buttons closer to the actual elevator, and removing the nonworking buttons in the hallway.

I can't quite move them much closer (they could be pressed by accident easily). I will however place some lights to set them apart and delete the non-working ones.

Lastly, I want to make some minor suggestions. Don't you think humans should start with a Medistation? And I think it would look nice with some windows in the rooms next to the outside areas.

Oops, no medi. (I just realise there isn't much space near the arm atm, but I'll place one for sure) The lack of windows is due to me being over-paranoid with the vis, but I guess I it will work quite well in that are (and provide some needed detail to the outside).

i question the nobuild flags on certain surfaces.

• outside i am able to build on the (invisible) ceiling, the rafters, and some non-vertical surfaces of the walls, but not on the vertical surfaces of the walls. i should be able to build on any parts of walls (i'd say), but not on the invisible areas. see outside.jpg.
• there's similar inconsistency in the central room. i gather you wanted to avoid "troller toaster" eggs; i'd say that's hard to do without denying building, in the central room, on all of the rafters and also the handrails.

Well, there is only 1 nobuid-area which is at near the bottom of the pit. I have had no problems building in the pit-area, besides the fact that you can't build between the 2 inner circles, which is because eggs need more space than they appear to. I havn't noticed that you can build at the invisible walls at the outside. I will try to fix that.

fix the grammar in the location names [...]
furthermore, i'd rename the Pit to something like the Fan Room.

I think I'll take take the way with the commas.  I am not sure about the pit, but maybe I get an idea.

As for the thing with the invisible walls: humancontroller has a point with the places in other maps (maybe not atcs, but this already has been discussed to death). I however agree with the ones who say I should give the tunnel a proper door: I won't remove the wall above the fence unless somebody got an idea to block the place off that doesn't look like a completely random grid or something like that.