goon pounce, rant charge, rifle vs dretch, & dodge

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

ive recently read a bunch of discussion on these issues, but the solutions proposed seem either silly, or the ravings of someone who loves 1.1 too much. 

before i get to what i think is the proper course of action, let me just say that i think dodge is bullshit, and rant charge needs to be fixed so that jumping does not negate its damage.  i wish jumping made me immune to the bulk of a luciball's damage.

now, what i have read is that pounce is overpowered, charge is overpowered, rifle is too good against dretch, and dodge is bullshit.  i disagree with the first two points, but agree with the last.  aliens, as a whole, only have four attacks that can possibly oneshot a nekked.  goon and rant attacks.  just as i was told to evolve to basi to avoid MD/SG oneshots, i tell these players to buy larmor.

to avoid instant death from charge, jump like everyone else does.  charge does not need to be changed, as if it was, the aliens would then have no way to clear congested halls.  it is bad enough to be forced to wait for s3.

so, the solution:

give the alien classes damage reduction.  "light" and "heavy" for sure, and perhaps "medium" and "structure" as well.  then you make the human weapons more or less effective on those armor types, based on the purpose of the weapon.

light armor is not really what you would expect.  it offers no protection at all against light weapons.  on the other hand, heavy weapons are far less effective against these targets.  rifles, shotguns, chainguns, and flamers would likely be the most effective against light armored targets.  the targets with light armor would likely be dretch, basi, basi+, granger, granger+, and mara (if not using medium class armor)

heavy armor would be the opposite of light armor.  it protects more against "light" weapons, but heavy weapons are unaffected by the reduction.  massdrivers, prifles, lasguns, and of course the luci would be the heavy weapons.  mara+ goon, goon+, and rant would posses heavy armor.

(option) medium armor would be a bastard armor class.  you could give it to basi+, granger+, and mara.  effectikve weapons against it could be shotgun, flamer, lasgun, and prifle.

(option) structure armor is harder than hard armor.  it gives extreme protection against "light" class weapons, but is very vulnerable to "heavy" weapons.

of note:  i did not include grenade or painsaw in any list.  they are special cases and could be said to ignore any armor.  i believe this could be balanced as the psaw must be in melee range, and the nade is a one use thing.

now, you may be asking yourself, "how does this armor shit make any difference to the topic?"  well, to tell you the truth, it does not in a hard and fast manner.  what it does is encourage more variety in human weapon selection.  it introduces an Achilles' heel to the larger aliens, and hopefully promotes more variety in class selection.  more variety means less goons and rants. less goons and rants means less pounce and charge whoring.  then we can talk about how OP basigrab and grangerspit is.

but, this does do jack dick about rifle vs dretch.  so how about giving dretch a lunge.  basically, a copy of human dodge, only it lacks a backwards use and has a forward use. 

[sirshiz]

light armor is not really what you would expect.  it offers no protection at all against light weapons.  

heavy armor would be the opposite of light armor.

Why. Why would you name something the opposite of what you would expect?

Also, flamer is a light weapon and the las gun is a heavy weapon? What.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

it protects against the other class of weapons, so rather than to say dretches have "heavy armor" and big things have "light armor", it is opposite of what you would expect.

flamer light/ las heavy:
game mechanics explanation - stage 1 needs some weapons effective against heavy targets aside from MD.  stage 2 needs light weapons.

story/real world explanation - flamethrowers coat their targets in liquid fire.  armored targets have protection from surface burns.  a laser is a tightly focused beam of light, ideal for burning through thick armor.

[E-Mxp]

I kind of like the idea. Here is the idea structured and expanded (reballanced?).

Code: [Select]

-------------------------------------------------
---------ALIEN ARMOUR VS HUMAN WEAPONS-----------
-------------------------------------------------
Granger, Dretch, Basilisk: (light alien armour)
+00% damage from light weapons
+10% damage from medium weapons
-20% damage from heavy weapons

[Weak against medium weapons, strong against heavy weapons]

Adv. Granger, Adv. Basilisk, Marauder (medium alien armour)
-10% damage from light weapons
+00% damage from medium weapons
-10% damage from heavy weapons

[Trade in some resistance for heavy weapons for more resistance against light weapons]

Adv. Marauder, Dragoon and Adv., Tyrant: (heavy alien armour)
-20% damage from light weapons
-10% damage from medium weapons
+00% damage from heavy weapons

[Trade in some resistance for heavy weapons for more resistance against medium and light weapons]

Alien structures: (alien structures)
-20% damage from light weapons
-20% damage from medium weapons
-10% damage from heavy weapons
-------------------------------------------------
---------HUMAN WEAPONS VS ALIEN ARMOUR-----------
-------------------------------------------------

Rifles, Lasguns: (light weapons)
+00% damage to light alien armour
-10% damage to medium alien armour
-20% damage to heavy alien armour
-20% damage to alien alien structures

[Lasgun is an upgrade from the rifle, hitscan, easy to use]
[Weak against all classes but light alien armour]

Shotgun, Massdriver, Flamer: (medium weapons)
+10% damage to light alien armour
+00% damage to medium alien armour
-10% damage to heavy alien armour
-20% damage to alien structures

[Allround damage, but close range (shotgun, flamer), or long reload time (massdriver)]
[Good against light alien armour, less good against heavy alien armour]

Chaingun, Pulse-Rifle, Luci (heavy weapons)
-20% damage to light alien armour
-10% damage to medium alien armour
+00% damage to heavy alien armour
-10% damage to alien alien structures

[Good damage, easy to use (chaingun, prifle) but weak against light/medium]

Painsaw, Grenade (anti-structure weapons)
No stats change.

[High damage, should be used to kill structures or with good skill, aliens]

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

not too bad refinement there, but i disagree with chaingun being heavy.  it is basically a rifle with no reload.  perhaps a tradeoff could be keeping chaingun light, but increasing its RoF.

in this way, chaingun can still be effective against medium and heavy targets, but retain its projectile properties.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

[1]
now, what i have read is that pounce is overpowered, charge is overpowered, rifle is too good against dretch, and dodge is bullshit.  i disagree with the first two points, but agree with the last.  aliens, as a whole, only have four attacks that can possibly oneshot a nekked.  goon and rant attacks.  just as i was told to evolve to basi to avoid MD/SG oneshots, i tell these players to buy larmor.
___________________________________________

I honestly say rifle vs dretch is balanced as is. I'm just not sure about dretch damages vs other armoured humans as from 2x headbite to 1.5x, 48 dmg to 36, it makes quite a difference. But i say that it should stay as is. The only problem is that you have more feeders as dretches vs rifle rather than rifle vs dretches mainly because people are used to shooter

[2]
to avoid instant death from charge, jump like everyone else does.  charge does not need to be changed, as if it was, the aliens would then have no way to clear congested halls.  it is bad enough to be forced to wait for s3.
__________
Humans still receive the same damage from charge. It just isn't as fast-repeating. It reminds me, as me having 280 ping at least on every server, my tyrant charge actually doesn't push the human much, instead i charge through them. The human receives the knockback AFTER i walk through him. It is a bit of a pain. I might as well be charging in circles.

[3]
give the alien classes damage reduction.  "light" and "heavy" for sure, and perhaps "medium" and "structure" as well.  then you make the human weapons more or less effective on those armor types, based on the purpose of the weapon.
_____________
In other words, aliens have armour or damage multipliers for certain weapons. I like this idea, but it could mean altering damage counters further. Being realistic, putting more metal on you DOES NOT reduce zap damage. It should NOT reduce fall damage. But these are all just for the gameplay. So i think trem should stay as is unless you're gonna make a mod. I'm fine with that.
[4]
light armor is not really what you would expect.  it offers no protection at all against light weapons.  on the other hand, heavy weapons are far less effective against these targets.  rifles, shotguns, chainguns, and flamers would likely be the most effective against light armored targets.  the targets with light armor would likely be dretch, basi, basi+, granger, granger+, and mara (if not using medium class armor)
____
Just no. Those classes already have low hp. You don't need to do this, especially with the aid of unlagged which favours humans for distance.


heavy armor would be the opposite of light armor.  it protects more against "light" weapons, but heavy weapons are unaffected by the reduction.  massdrivers, prifles, lasguns, and of course the luci would be the heavy weapons.  mara+ goon, goon+, and rant would posses heavy armor.

(option) medium armor would be a bastard armor class.  you could give it to basi+, granger+, and mara.  effective weapons against it could be shotgun, flamer, lasgun, and prifle.
____________
That would make it more unbalanced. You told me that you complained about getting one-shotted as a dretch and now you want to get one-shotted as a basi and granger. Also, i'd rather use pulse on tankers (people who just rush in as they have big health e.i. goons and rants)

(option) structure armor is harder than hard armor.  it gives extreme protection against "light" class weapons, but is very vulnerable to "heavy" weapons.
_______
Thats like saying basilisk&granger should do absolutely no damage to turrets while goon snipes kill it in 1. But i like the idea of making it prevent rifle-rush as dretches cant do that.

but, this does do jack dick about rifle vs dretch.  so how about giving dretch a lunge.  basically, a copy of human dodge, only it lacks a backwards use and has a forward use. 
____________
in other words, a weaker version of the adv dretch (that can go sideways?)??

FYI, you mensioned shotguun is effective againts light and medium.

then we can talk about how OP basigrab and grangerspit is.

Granger spit isnt overpowered. It is only overpowered if the granger is aiding another alien that is a attack type class. It isnt overpowered as well since adv grangers are now slowest alien (same speed as standard granger) and they die very easily. I think it should stay as is, and granger spit should give the granger an extra 5-10 points if they slow the human, and the human takes more than 50% damage [from anyone] while slowed as well as gaining 0.2-4 evos.
[multiplier example: 5 pnts for 50 dmg, 0.2 evos reward, 10 pnts 100 dmg with 0.4 evos]

Shiz i think i almost died after commenting this.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

ok, i'll bite.

1- n/a

2- you must not charge against experienced humans.  jump + knockback = human taking minimal damage.  the game should not be built around high ping.  either play on a server with lower ping, host a server yourself and convince people to play with you, or get a better connection.

3- you do not explain yourself coherently.  to implement this idea, you just create a tag on alien classes, and make a corresponding tag for weapons.  the tag itself would handle the damage reduction.  i'm not too up on the internal workings of ioq3, but with my general understanding of programming, it is really a minimal change.  i do not know why you then go into talking about human armor. 

4- you do not comprehend the purpose of the armor.  bonus damage is not applied for using the "correct" weapon, but damage is reduced for using the "wrong" weapon.  therefore, dretch and basi actually benefit.  for example, massdriver would be a heavy weapon.  damage from it would be reduced for dretch and basi.  also, luci damage would be reduced, meaning you could survive more splash damage.  seeing as you depend on unlagged, you wouldent like a bit more leeway in escaping lucis?  this would prevent most onshots.  you also failed to see that i listed pulse rifle (prifle) as a heavy weapon....  therefore useful against high HP aliens like goon and rant.

structure armor is listed as an option.  the idea is yes, it balances the fact that dretches cannot damage structures.

what the fuck is an adv dretch?  never heard of it.

FYI - every weapon listed in the optional medium class is listed in light or heavy.  jut like every alien in medium is listed in light or heavy.  this is because medium is an option.  even if this option is taken, these weapons would still be in their default light or heavy class.

lastly, you totally missed the joke.  i am not going to explain it.  i'd tell you t think about it, but that is a waste of text.... even moreso than my OP or this entire response.  even i have my limits.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

ok, i'll bite.

1- n/a

2- you must not charge against experienced humans.  jump + knockback = human taking minimal damage.  the game should not be built around high ping.  either play on a server with lower ping, host a server yourself and convince people to play with you, or get a better connection.
How? US official is the currently lowest ping server on my list. I'm australian.

3- you do not explain yourself coherently.  to implement this idea, you just create a tag on alien classes, and make a corresponding tag for weapons.  the tag itself would handle the damage reduction.  i'm not too up on the internal workings of ioq3, but with my general understanding of programming, it is really a minimal change.  i do not know why you then go into talking about human armor. 
No, i was relating it to human armour. But i'll deal with this alien armour thing as long as its only a mod. I half agree and disagree.

4- you do not comprehend the purpose of the armor.  bonus damage is not applied for using the "correct" weapon, but damage is reduced for using the "wrong" weapon.  therefore, dretch and basi actually benefit.  for example, massdriver would be a heavy weapon.  damage from it would be reduced for dretch and basi.  also, luci damage would be reduced, meaning you could survive more splash damage.  seeing as you depend on unlagged, you wouldent like a bit more leeway in escaping lucis?  this would prevent most onshots.  you also failed to see that i listed pulse rifle (prifle) as a heavy weapon....  therefore useful against high HP aliens like goon and rant.
He said 'more effective' and my idea from reading it came out similar to E-mxp's idea. Also, luci is actually weak in my opinion. 1.1's luci is o.k. although its speed is a little retarded (when i say it, i meant relating to the term to 'retard')The devs said when they released gpp that luci dmg was increased, but it wasn't. I still require 9/10 charge to one-shot a goon. To come back for this, i immediately fire the secondary as a combo which is actually one of my ups to gpp's secondary. In my Lolards mod the luci speed is actually scaled to how much you charge unlike gpp. Gpp's primary is always one speed. They've only created a second speed for secondary. [https://github.com/ZdrytchX/Lolards/blob/master/src/game/g_missile.c] Check line #484 unless i've updated the qvm so the lines shifted. For the pulse rifle comment, i actually left the computer and continued the response like an hour later, so i forgot partially what was in the quote.
what the fuck is an adv dretch?  never heard of it.
It is from TremX (1.1 mod, apparently someone imported into gpp but doesn't work for me) and KoRx mod (a mod of TremX) which both of those mods are actually VERY well known. Unless you only play gpp that is. Thinking of which, i've never seen you play 1.1. [comment continues below]. They lunge/pounce without any pounce damage. The autobite system and the pounce dmg system works in a similar way, so i dont think they need to add it anyway, which they didn't.

FYI - every weapon listed in the optional medium class is listed in light or heavy.  jut like every alien in medium is listed in light or heavy.  this is because medium is an option.  even if this option is taken, these weapons would still be in their default light or heavy class. Either i miss read the text, or you did. I'm sure i saw a medium that is weak againts one class.

[the continued comment]: Most gpp players say 1.1 is shit, when most have only tried 1.1 and hated it because of its graphics or simply because they entered X server saying it [X server] is unbalanced blah blah blah [lols, yes. What a bastard.]. Half of my friends and people i ask have that reason.
On the other hand, half of the people on aussie assault [1.1 lagged server] don't even know what gpp stands for, and others say gpp is shit. I say, [to both sides] that you just simply need to force yourselves to play the other version for at least a month's worth before you can actually enjoy the gameplay. Thats how i started gpp.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

2.  "host a server yourself and convince people to play with you, or get a better connection."

3.  the difference between this and human armor is that human armor is all around damage reduction.  for an alien to get damage reduction under this, he ,must be taking damage from a weapon "wrong" for his class.

4.  luci vs goon would not change.  goon is heavy, luci is heavy.  luci would only change vs light (or medium if that is used) targets, like dretch and basi.  the luci still would do enough damage to kill on a direct hit, but the splash would become more survivable.  as for leaving and coming back, that changes nothing, the text you were quoting did not change.  re-read it if you forget what it says, instead of spouting nonsense, please.  this is a forum  and your replies are not required to make a response as quickly as possible.  there is plenty of time for proofreading.

i dont play mods, and i have not played 1.1 since gpp has been released.  i think the dretch does need it because it has a ridiculously huge hitbox, humans can move nearly as fast as it can (faster with dodge and slopes), and most maps are designed in a way which makes wallwalk impractical.  the dretch has very few options when it comes to closing the gap.

you misread.  i listed basi+, granger+, and mara under light armor.  shotgun and flamer are light weapons, lasgun and prifle are heavy weapons.  this is what i meant in my OP when i called medium a "bastard" armor class.  if this was developed with medium armor the classes would be -

light- granger dretch basi / rifle shotgun chaingun flamer

medium - granger+ basi+ mara / shotgun flamer lasgun prifle

heavy - mara+ goon goon+ rant / MD lasgun prifle luci

without medium -

light - granger granger+ dretch basi basi+ mara / rifle shotgun chaingun flamer
heavy - mara+ goon goon+ rant / MD lasgun prifle luci

understand now?

[/dev/humancontroller]

US official is the currently lowest ping server on my list. I'm australian.

or you are deceived by the fact that featured servers are always displayed first in the list.

[Flux]

No excuses bros, just play better and don't suck.

[baybal]

I also had this idea

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

2.  "host a server yourself and convince people to play with you, or get a better connection."
Parents won't allow me to host a server 24/7 or even just for an hour. They're cautious of viruses. Lol... speaking of which... cat's planning on hosting a server. I told him to ask his guardians first... not sure if he has yet though.
3.  the difference between this and human armor is that human armor is all around damage reduction.  for an alien to get damage reduction under this, he ,must be taking damage from a weapon "wrong" for his class.
Whatever. I thought i already understood this. Your explaination is pretty much what i've already thought like on the first post on this topic.
4.  luci vs goon would not change.  goon is heavy, luci is heavy.  luci would only change vs light (or medium if that is used) targets, like dretch and basi.  the luci still would do enough damage to kill on a direct hit, but the splash would become more survivable.
either its just me or you're one of those who die easily from splashes?
  as for leaving and coming back, that changes nothing, the text you were quoting did not change.  re-read it if you forget what it says, instead of spouting nonsense, please.  this is a forum  and your replies are not required to make a response as quickly as possible.  there is plenty of time for proofreading.Screw you. I'm ending this arguement, cbf arguing with you anymore after this one.

i dont play mods, and i have not played 1.1 since gpp has been released.  i think the dretch does need it because it has a ridiculously huge hitbox, humans can move nearly as fast as it can (faster with dodge and slopes), and most maps are designed in a way which makes wallwalk impractical.  the dretch has very few options when it comes to closing the gap.In gpp, i find it a whole shitload easier to get to the human. In 1.1, you would usually strafejump to get there faster and therefore reveal yourself. Dodge is worth nothing to me unless you're playing with locals only (under 100 ping)

you misread.  i listed basi+, granger+, and mara under light armor.  shotgun and flamer are light weapons, lasgun and prifle are heavy weapons.  this is what i meant in my OP when i called medium a "bastard" armor class.  if this was developed with medium armor the classes would be -

light- granger dretch basi / rifle shotgun chaingun flamer

medium - granger+ basi+ mara / shotgun flamer lasgun prifle

heavy - mara+ goon goon+ rant / MD lasgun prifle luci

without medium -

light - granger granger+ dretch basi basi+ mara / rifle shotgun chaingun flamer
heavy - mara+ goon goon+ rant / MD lasgun prifle luci

understand now?
Your description is still complicated as the start. I still rather think lasgun of a "rounder" along with shotgun. I'm sure there are people who only like to use shotgun on goons+. Who absolutely uses md on tyrants. I also like to use pulse on those dretches as well. Lots of those categories don't make sense. You know what? I ragequit. I ended the argument.

omfg, quote button stopped working.
@/dev/humancontroller: No. I can see the whole list. Unlike people who you think who does not know how to use the scroll bar, i look at the whole list. I have to be lucky for SiR clan server to be lower than 300 ping in-game. I don't understand why i get such high ping from there even though i only live like 5000 kms from there. (malaysian internet?) I've alreay explain this to a lot of people already. Some other australians may get under 200 ping on SiR server, but i don't. On the other hand, i happen to be able to pounce better on SiR (and thats when i 'discovered' the beauty of why it is soo easy to pouncewhore with the new knockback) and i do not understand this. Either those numbers are a lie(most likely not) or wogomo has changed the balance for standard matches. I bet he hasn't.