How to REVIVE tremulous

[Nux]

this is why i have undying hatred for valve.  hl2 was going to be a q3 engine game.  valve bought a license, etc etc.  valve then drops the license, and releases the "source" engine.  which, in reality, is nothing more than reverse engineered q3 with a few mapping bullshit things added in (mapper friend of mine knew them by rote, cant remember what they are, as i dont really give a flying fuck).


then there is valve's business model.  hire popular modmakers, and sell their work as full games.  at the very least they should not charge people over and over to buy the same fucking reverse engineered engine.  pay for new content, yes.  pay for NEW engine, yes.  pay for the same engine with a hand-full of mods applied, and many rehashed assets?  fuck no.

furthermore, steam.  fuck that steaming heap of intrusive garbage, and fuck every game sold exclusively through it or that requires it.

good?  what good do they do?  all they do is show other businesses how little you can do to make a fuckton of money.


and dont even get me started on how they sell good scores for shit on steam.  not that all the other review outlets do not do the same.

valve profits from the ignorance of their users.  fuck any and every other service that does this.

They started out with an existing engine and coded for what it couldn't already do. After years of development and reworking of the majority of it's original code with a combination of licensed and in-house code they were calling it the 'source' engine. You say 'reverse engineered q3' like they weren't licensed the code and that they added 'bullshit things' as if the step from q3 to source was something small. They were doing 'good' when they were developing the engine.

Yes, Valve hired modmakers. In each case, what they sold was developed by said modmakers and others at Valve and was not the original mod. The mod would remain free and available. They were doing 'good' for the wallets of the makers of the mods and the communities that played them.

Steam is by far the best form of DRM I've seen yet. It provides a service in making your games easily bought, downloaded and updated. Not only that, but by streamlining this process and becoming successful for it, games can be and are sold for cheap prices. What could be more 'good' for computer games as an industry?

You don't seem to appreciate that doing 'good' can be a good way of making money. Maybe it's because you don't consider a 'good' act as good if it's done in the pursuit of money. I'm of the opinion that if money encourages 'good' acts then that's a pretty darn good thing in itself.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

this is why i have undying hatred for valve.  hl2 was going to be a q3 engine game.  valve bought a license, etc etc.  valve then drops the license, and releases the "source" engine.  which, in reality, is nothing more than reverse engineered q3 with a few mapping bullshit things added in (mapper friend of mine knew them by rote, cant remember what they are, as i dont really give a flying fuck).

WRONG. see the origins of the Source engine.

lol wikipedea.  shit that article is fucked up.  the opening statement is even WRONG, source debuted in vampire the masquerade: bloodlines.  the devs got in trouble because they violated an agreement with valve to not release before valve did.

also, if carmack says "there is still q1 code in source", where the fuck is their q1 license?

They started out with an existing engine and coded for what it couldn't already do. After years of development and reworking of the majority of it's original code with a combination of licensed and in-house code they were calling it the 'source' engine. You say 'reverse engineered q3' like they weren't licensed the code and that they added 'bullshit things' as if the step from q3 to source was something small. They were doing 'good' when they were developing the engine.

Yes, Valve hired modmakers. In each case, what they sold was developed by said modmakers and others at Valve and was not the original mod. The mod would remain free and available. They were doing 'good' for the wallets of the makers of the mods and the communities that played them.

Steam is by far the best form of DRM I've seen yet. It provides a service in making your games easily bought, downloaded and updated. Not only that, but by streamlining this process and becoming successful for it, games can be and are sold for cheap prices. What could be more 'good' for computer games as an industry?

You don't seem to appreciate that doing 'good' can be a good way of making money. Maybe it's because you don't consider a 'good' act as good if it's done in the pursuit of money. I'm of the opinion that if money encourages 'good' acts then that's a pretty darn good thing in itself.

ik believe that aside from graphical things, something that has been shown to not be the hardest thing to do in the q3 engine, it was area portals and vis leafs or some bullshit that valve added to the maps being the only changes.

it matters not what they developed while they had their license.  they revoked it and released their mod without the q3 license.  while this may not be illegal, i find it morally reprehensible.

i dont care what stays free when they hire modmakers.  they. sell. mods. at. full. game. price.  they. market. mods. as. full. games.

did i spell it out clearly enough this time?  this is the third time i have expressed this to you.

fuck drm in its totality.  the "best" form of it especially. look at how well DRM-less games do.  the only way a developer will lose substantial profits is if their product fucking sucks.

and do you really want to know what the best DRM is?  having a cd key and forcing registration online to use online features.

NOT forcing an install of intrusive, bloated spy/adware, and forcing an internet connection to install/play a game i purchased for offline play.  there are many things that are good for the gsming industry, and drm is not one.  drm is a fucking waste of development time and money, as it will always be defeated.

fuck, remember spore?  for at least a time, it became the most pirated game in history, BECAUSE of its fucking drm.  which was defeated hours/days after the iso became available.  millions.  wasted.  and the cost is passed to the consumer.


you wanna know what i think ding good is?  doing good is making your own original product.  doing good is not forcing the user to jump through hoops to install/use your product.  doing good is not wasting time and money, and passing that cost to the consumer.  doing good is charging a reasonable price for the work done.  doing good is keeping the license of the software that is your codebase, not revoking it and acting as if you made that shit from the ground up.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

also: describe the methodology of your rifle tests.

Low fps (not spiky fps, actual low fps, i tested trem gpp on a mac and rifle speed was fine. I actually liked the slow rifle effect...)

...Nexuiz [the old one] is empty except for a few unnamed and bot...

you do know why that is, right?

look up xenotic instead.

woah shit. Looks so much better. I don't know why, maybe its like comparing tremulous 1.0.0 to trem gpp. Just looks neater and characters aren't so plainly coloured and stupid. I dont think i can play it though unless they tweaked something in it, my computer barely runs with the 'old' nexuiz.
It says on the xonotic website is that simply some guy bought over the name and rights to nexuiz so they had to rename to xonotic to keep the old project alive.

[/dev/humancontroller]

see the origins of the Source engine.

lol wikipedea.  shit that article is fucked up.  the opening statement is even WRONG

explain !

source debuted in vampire the masquerade: bloodlines.  the devs got in trouble because they violated an agreement with valve to not release before valve did.

irrelevant.

also, if carmack says "there is still q1 code in source", where the fuck is their q1 license?

in existence. if you would like to see a signed copy of the paper which permits Valve to use the Quake engine's code for any purpose, ask either id Software or Valve (though i'll tell you that they won't waste their time on you).

it matters not what they developed while they had their license.  they revoked it and released their mod without the q3 license.  while this may not be illegal, i find it morally reprehensible.

the Valve developers never had a Quake 3 license, but rather their own engine. also, why would the developers revoke their own license? such action is retarded, but is morally neutral or good.

they. sell. mods. at. full. game. price.  they. market. mods. as. full. games.

that's. because. they. sell. full. games. you're. lucky. that. they're. not. charging. you. for. the. engine. per. game.

doing good is making your own original product.

...with the support of middleware and engine technologies, such as the Quake engine for Half-Life, the additional Havok physics system for Half-Life 2, and the Quake 3 engine for Tremulous.

for the consumers immediately:

doing good is not wasting time and money, and passing that cost to the consumer.  doing good is charging a reasonable price for the work done.

for the developers immediately, and for the consumers in the future:
doing good is spending time and money, and passing that cost to the consumer. doing good is charging a high price for the work done.

doing good is keeping the license of the software that is your codebase

that's a rather retarded idea for a bought engine or middleware product, on behalf of both the buyer and the seller. it is, however, good (due to a requirement on imposed on the buyer) to advertise a recent middleware product, and is done so in Half-Life 2.

not revoking it

ind33d, and no developer (or manager) has ever done that before.

and acting as if you made that shit from the ground up.

and noone is doing so.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

im not dicking around with splitting that mess of quotage.

rule #1 of online debate, never invoke wikipedia.

the explanation is the next sentence, which you declare irrelevant.  source did not debut with CS:S.

no.  i would like to see them acknowledge the fact.  like, in the instruction manual, credits, and/or other docs.  like where it gives the copyright info for shit like havok.  ""uses portions of Quake by iD software" or some such.

of interest to you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc.  follow the directions of the first quote, and compare release source mapshit to q3 mapshit.  also, i was misremembering the whole time.  it wasent q3, it was q2.

Valve Software's 1998 Half-Life, which went on to sell over eight million copies, was originally going to use the Quake II engine during early development stages. However, the final version runs on a heavily modified version of the Quake engine, GoldSrc, with a small amount of the Quake II code

no, dev/HC, they sell mods.  they even share assets sometimes.  and their mods kinda suck compared to what the community has put out.

sure middleware is fine, assuming you properly attribute work.

excuse my misinformed license comments, skipping down to your closer now.

i have argued with legions, usually starting such arguments with "i dont like [insert valve or valve mod here]"people have a hard time accepting the fact that there is someone for whom valve is not gods gift to gaming.  valve, to me, promotes homogeneity, factory line, dumbed down, pretty but shallow bullshit mods.  not games.  mods.(for fucks sake, HL2.exe runs fucking every valve "game")

[Nux]

It debuted in June 2004 with Counter-Strike: Source and shortly thereafter Half-Life 2, and has been in active development ever since.

Counter-Strike: Source was initially released as a beta to members of the Valve Cyber Café Program on August 11, 2004.

It is also notable for being the first game along with Half-Life 2 to use Valve's Source engine

Due to the game's size and complexity, the Code Release Candidate took three weeks to test, but on October 4, 2004, Bloodlines went Gold as Version 1.0.

I think it's fair to say that wikipedia is a little confused exactly when the source engine debuted. This is probably because news sites were equally confused at the time.

it matters not what they developed while they had their license.  they revoked it and released their mod without the q3 license.  while this may not be illegal, i find it morally reprehensible.

Half-Life was released before the Quake engine was put under GPL, so there will have been an agreement between id Software and Valve about the use of their engine. The Source engine was released four and a half years after the Quake engine was made available to everyone, so any code still left from the Quake engine would still be covered by the terms of the GPL. At what point did Valve revoke any license?

It sounds like you're saying that what GoldSrc was like in 1998 is what Source is like today. Like saying Team Fortress is the same as Team Fortress 2 or that Portal is like Narbacular Drop. It's easy to see from just those examples what the people at Valve have been able to do with ideas that started out as mods.

...and no, I didn't start on this because you merely said "i dont like [insert valve or valve mod here]". If you had done that then there would have been nothing to discuss. You stated that Valve hires modmakers (like it's a bad thing) and then somehow concluded that all they do is sell mods (both then and now) which is clearly not true.

[vcxzet]

My eyes when you are still talking about the origins of source engine in 2012.
So RETRO...

[/dev/humancontroller]

im not dicking around with splitting that mess of quotage.

you suck.

rule #1 of online debate, never invoke wikipedia.

no, rule #1 is not to invoke nazism. rule #2 is not to speak against invocation of information sources.

the explanation is the next sentence, which you declare irrelevant.

so beside considering the origins of the Source engine, you mention: "btw, the release dates are fucked up.".

i would like to see them acknowledge the fact.  like, in the instruction manual, credits, and/or other docs.  like where it gives the copyright info for shit like havok.  ""uses portions of Quake by iD software" or some such.

Valve bought, ie., bought a full copy of the Quake engine's source code. This implies full ownership and no requirement to post any notices, and Valve payed for such permissions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc.

did you just break your own rule #1?

they sell mods.

they sell full games.

middleware is fine, assuming you properly attribute work.

...if required by a particular middleware product.

not games.  mods.(for fucks sake, HL2.exe runs fucking every valve "game")

games.

is Tremulous a game or a mod?

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

i may suck, but i am using my clipboard for other repetitive copy/paste procedures i am engaged with as i type this.  that project gets the clipboard, trem forum does not, thus no quote splittage.

assuming that the page is not locked, anyone can change wikipedea to contain any content.  as icing on the cake, barely any article meets the page's own standards of sourcing, not submitting original research, or just about any other rule/guideline they have for themselves.  if you want to use wikipedea as a research tool, great, but when you bring such research to an argument, cite the source, not the wiki.  amazing that i would have to explain this to you.

if something starts out WRONG, it lowers my credibility meter.

buying a commercial license is not the same thing as owning it.  i would expect to see some acknowledgement.  especially so that consumers and other developers can know what to buy if they enjoy the engine.

by breaking the "no wiki allowed" rule, you allowed it to be used.  by using it yourself, you show that you are willing to have it used against you.

they sell mods.

even if not "required".  it is good practice.  not only are you giving credit where it is due, you are helping that middleware developer garner more business.  instead of implying that your work is original by way of lack of attribution.

mods.

tremulous is a total conversion mod.  didnt you see my thoughts on this last time it came up?

split replies, as i dislike my posts getting overlong.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Half-Life was released before the Quake engine was put under GPL, so there will have been an agreement between id Software and Valve about the use of their engine. The Source engine was released four and a half years after the Quake engine was made available to everyone, so any code still left from the Quake engine would still be covered by the terms of the GPL. At what point did Valve revoke any license?

It sounds like you're saying that what GoldSrc was like in 1998 is what Source is like today. Like saying Team Fortress is the same as Team Fortress 2 or that Portal is like Narbacular Drop. It's easy to see from just those examples what the people at Valve have been able to do with ideas that started out as mods.

...and no, I didn't start on this because you merely said "i dont like [insert valve or valve mod here]". If you had done that then there would have been nothing to discuss. You stated that Valve hires modmakers (like it's a bad thing) and then somehow concluded that all they do is sell mods (both then and now) which is clearly not true.

terms of gpl.

what are the two most important parts of the gpl?

valve's business ethic from 1998 is the same as valve's today.

hiring modmakers is not a bad thing.  hiring modmakers and then selling mods as full games is a bad thing.

then, they sold quake mods.

now, they sell mods for "their" engine.

and the mods they sell suck compared to community made mods made on "their" engine.

of note, i have no problem with people selling mods (so long as it complies with the engine's licensing, they charge "mod price", and proper accreditation is made)

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

also: describe the methodology of your rifle tests.

Low fps (not spiky fps, actual low fps, i tested trem gpp on a mac and rifle speed was fine. I actually liked the slow rifle effect...)

...Nexuiz [the old one] is empty except for a few unnamed and bot...

you do know why that is, right?

look up xenotic instead.

woah shit. Looks so much better. I don't know why, maybe its like comparing tremulous 1.0.0 to trem gpp. Just looks neater and characters aren't so plainly coloured and stupid. I dont think i can play it though unless they tweaked something in it, my computer barely runs with the 'old' nexuiz.
It says on the xonotic website is that simply some guy bought over the name and rights to nexuiz so they had to rename to xonotic to keep the old project alive.

that is not the methodology, that is one condition.  tell me what you did to test.

re:xenotic.  kind of.  remember the xbox april fool's joke here?  that's kind of what really happened to nexuiz, and the community reacted there as they did here.  only it wasent a joke.

fuck, triplepost.  i didnt pay attention to what thread this was, otherwise i would have edited it in.  ive actually gotten spoiled with a different forum's delete post function.  oh well, if a mod wants to consolidate this fuckage, please do.

[Nux]

i may suck, but i am using my clipboard for other repetitive copy/paste procedures i am engaged with as i type this.  that project gets the clipboard, trem forum does not, thus no quote splittage.

You could just open up notepad (or equivalent) and dump your clipboard content there. I don't really mind if you choose to or not, it's just a suggestion.

what are the two most important parts of the gpl?

I can only guess what you consider important parts. If you're referring to 'derived works' then yes, this is significant but no, it's not decisive. For starters, I don't personally know what agreement Valve had with id Software, and their continued use of their code (in whatever form it has come to be in) might still be licensed under it's original agreement. Neither do I know if Valve have kept their code separated from the GPL code or made statements that mark said separation. Also, the matter of what constitutes a derived work is a philosophical one rather like one taking the 'Ship of Theseus' to pieces and rebuilding it as a hovercraft. The reality of the matter is more certain: id software make no claim to the Source engine as a derived work.

of note, i have no problem with people selling mods (so long as it complies with the engine's licensing, they charge "mod price", and proper accreditation is made)

I can and do buy games that I want for tiny sums of money from only two places currently: The Humble Indie Bundles (when they come out) and from Steam. Take from that what you will, but they've made spending money on games an option for me.

I don't know of any cases where they haven't provided accreditation where they should have so feel free to provide any examples you know of.

[/dev/humancontroller]

buying a commercial license is not the same thing as owning it.  i would expect to see some acknowledgement.

the 1st statement is correct, but is irrelevant to the 2nd statement. i would expect Valve to pay a high price (Valve did, really) for the permission not to stick to the fucking ads.

even if not "required".  it is good practice.

for the purposes of tipping off others, thus lowering your company's potential prestige and success in the future.

not only are you giving credit where it is due, you are helping that middleware developer garner more business.

...along with other companies that will eat a piece of your pie.

hiring modmakers and then selling mods as full games is a bad thing.

they sell <X> as <X>, where <X> is either games or mods.

mods.

games.

tremulous is a total conversion mod.

so Tremulous is a mod. is Jedi Academy a game or a mod?

cite the source, not the wiki.  amazing that i would have to explain this to you.

or the source of the source? or maybe the source of the source of the source of the source of the source? fuck off.

by breaking the "no wiki allowed" rule, you allowed it to be used.  by using it yourself, you show that you are willing to have it used against you.

by not following a rule that you try to enforce yourself, you are showing that you do not expect others to follow that rule, and thus should have STFUed instead. thus, you are showing that you FAIL and have PWNED yourself.

[Minimum]

this is why i have undying hatred for valve.  hl2 was going to be a q3 engine game.  valve bought a license, etc etc.  valve then drops the license, and releases the "source" engine.  which, in reality, is nothing more than reverse engineered q3 with a few mapping bullshit things added in (mapper friend of mine knew them by rote, cant remember what they are, as i dont really give a flying fuck).

Valve are some of the best devs around. They do shit as standard which other developers would rarely ever do, and you hate them because they made modifications to an engine so that it would be easier to make games on for them? YEAH MAN EVERYBODY SHOULD BE POOR FUCK VALVE THEY DONT NEED MONEY  

EDIT: PS: I'm bored as fuck and nobodies told me how I tremulous yet.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

dev/HC:

an acknowledgement in the credits is hardly an ad.  it doesent have to be plastered all over the box or anything.

if that statement were accurate, havok would have went bankrupt.

as above.

they sell mods as games.  their shit is almost perfectly compatible with each other mod.  you only need dick around with entities when you "import" a map from mod to mod, if memory serves.  it's been a few years, admittedly.  from what i understand, importing q3 maps is a breeze as well.  again, i dont really know for sure, because i never cared to learn.  im not a fucking mapper.

mods.

another total conversion mod.

no, just the source that makes your point.

nope.  wiki use for me is a policy similar to the US stance on NBC weapons:  no first use.  

do you realize how desperate it makes you look when you upsize, bolden, and underline those two words in particular?


minimum:

i hate valve because they do an hour or two of scripting, make a few maps and models, and sell it for the same price as full games...  those that have been built from the ground up.

i hate valve for their bloated spyware, steam.

i hate valve because so many of you people think they are actually a good company.

nux:
including the source and accreditation.  those are the "most important parts" of the gpl.  more than one corporation has run afowl of this,

iD makes no official claim, but valve has stated so in interviews and comments.  and of course the statement by carmack that "source still includes code from early quake"

if i buy indy games (and i do) i buy from the source, so no third party gets a cut.  make of that what you will.

[AppleZ]

U guys went completely off topic.

All tremulous really needs is the advertisement.
its not a dead game.
theres alot of people who still play.

[Minimum]

minimum:

i hate valve because they do an hour or two of scripting, make a few maps and models, and sell it for the same price as full games...  those that have been built from the ground up.

Yeah but nah. Dota 2 is free. CS:GO will be $25. Portal 2 was slightly cheaper than full priced but was constantly on sale and was a chunky meaty game with lots of detail and love put into it, which is now sold at something like $20. Portal 1 was practically free. Half Life 2 was released waaaay cheaper than most AAA games and it's only something like $15 for all the episodes now. Let's contrast this to SC2, which is $80 something like 2/3 years after release.

You talk Valve adopting modmakers and providing them with tools and resources like it's a bad thing.

Let's say Icefrog continued developing Dota 2 on the WC3 engine. We'd still have those jarringly aged graphics (Horrible for ESPORTS), we'd still have the huge huge limitation of the maximum size on a single map file, we'd still have the rest of the solid limitations of the WC3 engine. Like, Rubick can't spellsteal x-marks the spot because it takes the slot of another of his spells, for fucks sakes.

Let's say he went with the offer from Blizzard. We'd get a shitty version of this designed around getting lots of money and pandering to absolute casual/new players and forfeiting the rest. It would have agressive DRM and cost $25. Yeah. Nah.

Let's say he went with the offer from Riot. That would be cool.
Who am I kidding, it would just be LEEG OF LEHANDAS but more official.

But instead, he went with Valve. Now we have a game released for free but which still maintains high quality and which brings in income for the devs through *aesthetic-only* modifications. Valve have also provided money for two "Dota 2 International" tournaments each with a prize of $1 million.

tl;dr: fuck valve I'm so edgy my fingers are bleeding just writing this

I don't even know why I wrote that I just want someone to tell me how i tremulous

[/dev/humancontroller]

for reference i'll triplequote you:

im not dicking around with splitting that mess of quotage.

rule #1 of online debate, never invoke wikipedia.

the explanation is the next sentence, which you declare irrelevant.  source did not debut with CS:S.

no.  i would like to see them acknowledge the fact.  like, in the instruction manual, credits, and/or other docs.  like where it gives the copyright info for shit like havok.  ""uses portions of Quake by iD software" or some such.

of interest to you - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc.  follow the directions of the first quote, and compare release source mapshit to q3 mapshit.  also, i was misremembering the whole time.  it wasent q3, it was q2.

Valve Software's 1998 Half-Life, which went on to sell over eight million copies, was originally going to use the Quake II engine during early development stages. However, the final version runs on a heavily modified version of the Quake engine, GoldSrc, with a small amount of the Quake II code

no, dev/HC, they sell mods.  they even share assets sometimes.  and their mods kinda suck compared to what the community has put out.

sure middleware is fine, assuming you properly attribute work.

excuse my misinformed license comments, skipping down to your closer now.

i have argued with legions, usually starting such arguments with "i dont like [insert valve or valve mod here]"people have a hard time accepting the fact that there is someone for whom valve is not gods gift to gaming.  valve, to me, promotes homogeneity, factory line, dumbed down, pretty but shallow bullshit mods.  not games.  mods.(for fucks sake, HL2.exe runs fucking every valve "game")

i may suck, but i am using my clipboard for other repetitive copy/paste procedures i am engaged with as i type this.  that project gets the clipboard, trem forum does not, thus no quote splittage.

assuming that the page is not locked, anyone can change wikipedea to contain any content.  as icing on the cake, barely any article meets the page's own standards of sourcing, not submitting original research, or just about any other rule/guideline they have for themselves.  if you want to use wikipedea as a research tool, great, but when you bring such research to an argument, cite the source, not the wiki.  amazing that i would have to explain this to you.

if something starts out WRONG, it lowers my credibility meter.

buying a commercial license is not the same thing as owning it.  i would expect to see some acknowledgement.  especially so that consumers and other developers can know what to buy if they enjoy the engine.

by breaking the "no wiki allowed" rule, you allowed it to be used.  by using it yourself, you show that you are willing to have it used against you.

they sell mods.

even if not "required".  it is good practice.  not only are you giving credit where it is due, you are helping that middleware developer garner more business.  instead of implying that your work is original by way of lack of attribution.

mods.

tremulous is a total conversion mod.  didnt you see my thoughts on this last time it came up?

split replies, as i dislike my posts getting overlong.

dev/HC:

an acknowledgement in the credits is hardly an ad.  it doesent have to be plastered all over the box or anything.

if that statement were accurate, havok would have went bankrupt.

as above.

they sell mods as games.  their shit is almost perfectly compatible with each other mod.  you only need dick around with entities when you "import" a map from mod to mod, if memory serves.  it's been a few years, admittedly.  from what i understand, importing q3 maps is a breeze as well.  again, i dont really know for sure, because i never cared to learn.  im not a fucking mapper.

mods.

another total conversion mod.

no, just the source that makes your point.

nope.  wiki use for me is a policy similar to the US stance on NBC weapons:  no first use.  

do you realize how desperate it makes you look when you upsize, bolden, and underline those two words in particular?


minimum:

i hate valve because they do an hour or two of scripting, make a few maps and models, and sell it for the same price as full games...  those that have been built from the ground up.

i hate valve for their bloated spyware, steam.

i hate valve because so many of you people think they are actually a good company.

nux:
including the source and accreditation.  those are the "most important parts" of the gpl.  more than one corporation has run afowl of this,

iD makes no official claim, but valve has stated so in interviews and comments.  and of course the statement by carmack that "source still includes code from early quake"

if i buy indy games (and i do) i buy from the source, so no third party gets a cut.  make of that what you will.

do you realize that you're just fucking terrible? almost every statement appears out of context.

[/dev/humancontroller]

your quoting sucks so much, that i even have to edit your quotes to include quoting.

an acknowledgement in the credits is hardly an ad.

but is still an ad, which many users, including me, hate.

even if not "required".  it is good practice.

for the purposes of tipping off others, thus lowering your company's potential prestige and success in the future.

if that statement were accurate, havok would have went bankrupt.

WRONG.

not only are you giving credit where it is due, you are helping that middleware developer garner more business.

...along with other companies that will eat a piece of your pie.

as above.

WRONG.

cite the source, not the wiki.  amazing that i would have to explain this to you.

or the source of the source? or maybe the source of the source of the source of the source of the source? fuck off.

no, just the source that makes your point.

you're fucking retarded. let's say that the information chain is the following:

• rumor
• blog post @ random-blogs.net/user123
• review post @ uber-games.net
• blog post @ fancy-blogs.net/user345
• WikiPedia

referring to which of these makes your point, and why?

by breaking the "no wiki allowed" rule, you allowed it to be used.  by using it yourself, you show that you are willing to have it used against you.

by not following a rule that you try to enforce yourself, you are showing that you do not expect others to follow that rule, and thus should have STFUed instead. thus, you are showing that you FAIL and

nope.

WRONG. you're retarded.

so Tremulous is a mod. is Jedi Academy a game or a mod?

another total conversion mod.

i hate valve because they do an hour or two of scripting, make a few maps and models, and sell it for the same price as full games...  those that have been built from the ground up.

so you also hate the developers of Jedi Academy.

mods.

games.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Yeah but nah. Dota 2 is free. CS:GO will be $25. Portal 2 was slightly cheaper than full priced but was constantly on sale and was a chunky meaty game with lots of detail and love put into it, which is now sold at something like $20. Portal 1 was practically free. Half Life 2 was released waaaay cheaper than most AAA games and it's only something like $15 for all the episodes now. Let's contrast this to SC2, which is $80 something like 2/3 years after release.

You talk Valve adopting modmakers and providing them with tools and resources like it's a bad thing.

Let's say Icefrog continued developing Dota 2 on the WC3 engine. We'd still have those jarringly aged graphics (Horrible for ESPORTS), we'd still have the huge huge limitation of the maximum size on a single map file, we'd still have the rest of the solid limitations of the WC3 engine. Like, Rubick can't spellsteal x-marks the spot because it takes the slot of another of his spells, for fucks sakes.

Let's say he went with the offer from Blizzard. We'd get a shitty version of this designed around getting lots of money and pandering to absolute casual/new players and forfeiting the rest. It would have agressive DRM and cost $25. Yeah. Nah.

Let's say he went with the offer from Riot. That would be cool.
Who am I kidding, it would just be LEEG OF LEHANDAS but more official.

But instead, he went with Valve. Now we have a game released for free but which still maintains high quality and which brings in income for the devs through *aesthetic-only* modifications. Valve have also provided money for two "Dota 2 International" tournaments each with a prize of $1 million.

tl;dr: fuck valve I'm so edgy my fingers are bleeding just writing this

I don't even know why I wrote that I just want someone to tell me how i tremulous

dota1 is (and this one that you are talking about that i dont know about seems to be) a mod.  they'll actually be CHARGING for a rehashed counterstrike?!  portal, both of them, are mods.  i bet they even use default hl2 textures (like all valve released source mods seem to).  hl2 was most definitely NOT cheaper than a "AAA" game (unless you consider $59-$65 retail to be cheaper than "AAA").  hl2 is now a decade old or more.  $15 is way too much for such an old game and its expansions.

sc2 was made by modern blizzard, who are money-grubbing whores, so any statement about them overcharging is irrelevant due to obviousness.

valve already provides modmakers with tools and resources.  it's called hammer.  funding modmakers to make mods is good too, provided the work is priced as a mod.

i had thought that everyone involved in esportsTM(lmfao) dumbed down/simplified graphics to get the best fps.  so ugly fucking graphics shouldent make a difference.  steam is aggressive drm.

i dont really give a flying shit about anything else you wrote.

your quoting sucks so much, that i even have to edit your quotes to include quoting.

but is still an ad, which many users, including me, hate.

WRONG.

WRONG.

you're fucking retarded. let's say that the information chain is the following:

• rumor
• blog post @ random-blogs.net/user123
• review post @ uber-games.net
• blog post @ fancy-blogs.net/user345
• WikiPedia

referring to which of these makes your point, and why?

WRONG. you're retarded.

so you also hate the developers of Jedi Academy.

games.

i do it to piss you off, at this point.

so, everything listed in "special thanks"  and every caveat of "contains x from y" is advertisement?

WRONG.

WRONG.

that, my friend, is exactly why you dont use wikipedea in the first place.  and by doing so, by your own list, you are fucking retardedTM.  and if you had not called me out on it, you would have never put your own foot up your ass like you did just there.

WRONG, you are retarded for your obscession with being 1337 and commonly using such words as "fail" and "pwn".  what's next, are you chargin' your lazerz to over 9000?

nah, raven's cool.  their mod went beyond just a few lines of scripting.  let me ask you this, is nexiuz(original) a mod or a game?

mods.

do you realize that you're just fucking terrible? almost every statement appears out of context.

dont give a shit.

[/dev/humancontroller]

dont give a shit.

i do it to piss you off, at this point.

LOSER.

so, everything listed in "special thanks"  and every caveat of "contains x from y" is advertisement?

obviously.

WRONG.

WRONG.

WRONG.

WRONG.

cite the source, not the wiki.  amazing that i would have to explain this to you.

or the source of the source? or maybe the source of the source of the source of the source of the source? fuck off.

no, just the source that makes your point.

you're fucking retarded. let's say that the information chain is the following:

• rumor
• blog post @ random-blogs.net/user123
• review post @ uber-games.net
• blog post @ fancy-blogs.net/user345
• WikiPedia

referring to which of these makes your point, and why?

that, my friend, is exactly why you dont use wikipedea in the first place.

you are avoiding the question.

by your own list, you are fucking retardedTM.  and if you had not called me out on it, you would have never put your own foot up your ass like you did just there.

your aura of retardedness radiates bullshit all over the world, shaking the minds of everyone. try to answer the question, and you will degrade into a puddle of inconsistency, retardedness, and admittance.

by breaking the "no wiki allowed" rule, you allowed it to be used.  by using it yourself, you show that you are willing to have it used against you.

by not following a rule that you try to enforce yourself, you are showing that you do not expect others to follow that rule, and thus should have STFUed instead.

nope.

WRONG. you're retarded.

WRONG, you are retarded for your obscession with being 1337 and commonly using such words as "fail" and "pwn".

WRONG. FAIL and PWNED have primarily nothing to do with my statement. my statement shows that you are inconsistent, and that your own statements prove your inconsistency. thus, my statement shows your SELF-PWNAGE.

so Tremulous is a mod. is Jedi Academy a game or a mod?

another total conversion mod.

i hate valve because they do an hour or two of scripting, make a few maps and models, and sell it for the same price as full games...  those that have been built from the ground up.

so you also hate the developers of Jedi Academy.

nah, raven's cool.

you are, again, inconsistent, and therefore WRONG.

let me ask you this, is nexiuz(original) a mod or a game?

that is for you to answer, and your answer will surely be inconsistent.

mods.

games.

[CorSair]

if i buy indy games (and i do) i buy from the source, so no third party gets a cut.  make of that what you will

Like mod (or game or whatever you like to call it) called Dear Esther?

as for Wikipedia... Wikipedia is somewhat okay place to look some first hand information. If it doesn't satisfy you, you can try to find the source of the news/info via the links offered by Wikipedia, or using Google. or Bing. Or Yahoo.
But not my call how you use the sources.


Oh, just to note, if you didn't see it already: Offtopic.

[Chomps123]

Steam.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

[1] that is one condition.  tell me what you did to test.

[2]re:xenotic.  kind of.  remember the xbox april fool's joke here?  that's kind of what really happened to nexuiz, and the community reacted there as they did here.  only it wasent a joke.

[3]-stuff-

[1] I see it every day. I do not need to test it. Its simple as is:
-lower fps, slower firing speeds. I once got one as slow as 4 bullet/s (slower than lasgun) but i had like 2 fps meaning it kinda was 'shooting 2 bullets every frame'. Well at least it doesnt waste 5 bullets for nothing like in 1.1.

[2]The site said 'xonotic' not 'xenotic'. I first thought it was ur typo...

[3]despite my intelligence, i've done worse. Thats because i couldn't find the 'modify' or 'edit' button for that particular forum.

Seriously how can you guys stay up for hours on this forums... i seriously only 'look' and 'type' for about 10 minutes total and then i get off.

you are, again, inconsistent, and therefore WRONG.

You surely love those don't you.

[CreatureofHell]

Seriously how can you guys stay up for hours on this forums... i seriously only 'look' and 'type' for about 10 minutes total and then i get off.

No wonder all of your posts are useless.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

virus, yea, i fucked up remembering the title.  one letter off is not bad.

dev/HC:

i cant be a loser if i am succeeding with obtaining my goal.  that means a winner is me.

your stance on ads mirrors mine on mods.  both are equally ridiculous.

blah blah, WRONG, blah, blah.

i am avoiding the question by asking the same to you.  as the one who first invoked wikipedea, it is your responsibility to own up to why, when you give such an impressive list on why NOT to cite wikipedea.  other than that, i repeat, i invoked it so you would call me on it, so i could then get you into the position you are in now.  satisfactory?  now, do your own explaining.

poetic.  too bad the ignorance/stupidity/whatever of another person is no excuse to allow yourself to degrade to the same imbecilic level.

primarily nothing to do with your statement?  you need to review sentence structure, my friend!  those words were the compound predicate of your clause.  the subject, me, (does) fail and self "pwn".  remove the predicate, and you have the subject, me, does.   and you call me inconsistent!  furthermore, you still insist on using these terms which any grown man should be shamed to see typed by himself.  look at yourself.  you type like a goddamn script kiddie.

personal opinion has the virtue of allowances for inconsistency.  unlike facts, opinions are mutable and do not have to be codified into rigid structure.  furthermore my opinion of raven is not fully based on jedi acadamy. 

i know my own answer.  i want to hear yours.

mods.

[CreatureofHell]

using these terms which any grown man should be shamed to see typed by himself.

ASHAMED! ASHAMED!

HAVE SOME DECENCY!

[/dev/humancontroller]

(quoting the whole out-of-context mess, for the record and maximum embarassment.)

virus, yea, i fucked up remembering the title.  one letter off is not bad.

dev/HC:

i cant be a loser if i am succeeding with obtaining my goal.  that means a winner is me.

your stance on ads mirrors mine on mods.  both are equally ridiculous.

blah blah, WRONG, blah, blah.

i am avoiding the question by asking the same to you.  as the one who first invoked wikipedea, it is your responsibility to own up to why, when you give such an impressive list on why NOT to cite wikipedea.  other than that, i repeat, i invoked it so you would call me on it, so i could then get you into the position you are in now.  satisfactory?  now, do your own explaining.

poetic.  too bad the ignorance/stupidity/whatever of another person is no excuse to allow yourself to degrade to the same imbecilic level.

primarily nothing to do with your statement?  you need to review sentence structure, my friend!  those words were the compound predicate of your clause.  the subject, me, (does) fail and self "pwn".  remove the predicate, and you have the subject, me, does.   and you call me inconsistent!  furthermore, you still insist on using these terms which any grown man should be shamed to see typed by himself.  look at yourself.  you type like a goddamn script kiddie.

personal opinion has the virtue of allowances for inconsistency.  unlike facts, opinions are mutable and do not have to be codified into rigid structure.  furthermore my opinion of raven is not fully based on jedi acadamy.  

i know my own answer.  i want to hear yours.

mods.

i do it to piss you off, at this point.

LOSER.

i cant be a loser if i am succeeding with obtaining my goal.  that means a winner is me.

WRONG. it means that having lost an important goal, which was to win a debate, you resort to trolling.

WRONG

WRONG.

your stance on ads mirrors mine on mods.  both are equally ridiculous.

WRONG.

i am avoiding the question by asking the same to you.

WRONG. first, i thought that you are avoiding the question because you noticed that you are WRONG when you thought about answering the question. but now it turns out that you are WRONG and retarded.

you give such an impressive list on why NOT to cite wikipedea.

WRONG. i'll write the question again, and will give you more time to try to comprehend your WRONGness:

cite the source, not the wiki.

or the source of the source? or maybe the source of the source of the source of the source of the source? fuck off.

no, just the source that makes your point.

you're fucking retarded. let's say that the information chain is the following:

• rumor
• blog post @ random-blogs.net/user123
• review post @ uber-games.net
• blog post @ fancy-blogs.net/user345
• WikiPedia

referring to which of these makes your point, and why?

other than that, i repeat, i invoked it so you would call me on it, so i could then get you into the position you are in now.

to make me rage and point out your WRONGness? doubtfully. the real background of you invoking WikiPedia is that you weren't thinking.

FAIL and PWNED have primarily nothing to do with my statement. my statement shows that you are inconsistent, and that your own statements prove your inconsistency. thus, my statement shows your SELF-PWNAGE.

primarily nothing to do with your statement?

ind33d.

you need to review sentence structure, my friend!  those words were the compound predicate of your clause.  the subject, me, (does) fail and self "pwn".  remove the predicate, and you have the subject, me, does.

"statement" does not refer to grammar (sentence structure, etc.) ! "statement" refers to the logical thing-to-say, which is primarily about your inconsistency (secondarily, i was ridiculing you in a PROPER(TM) way).

you still insist on using these terms which any grown man should be shamed to see typed by himself.  look at yourself.

being a grown man is a disgrace. being 1337 is not.

you type like a goddamn script kiddie.

you have no idea about

• how i type, and
• what a script kiddie is.

personal opinion has the virtue of allowances for inconsistency.

...and WRONGness.

let me ask you this, is nexiuz(original) a mod or a game?

that is for you to answer, and your answer will surely be inconsistent.

i know my own answer.  i want to hear yours.

my answer is irrelevant to this discussion: your WRONGness can be shown without my answer.

mods.

games.

[kharnov]

It certainly seems like you've all figured out how to revive the forums.

[Minimum]

It certainly seems like you've all figured out how to revive the forums.

i just want to tremules

pls respond