Balance in the Force

[FisherP]

First of all, being new to the game I can still say that is pretty good. It's fast pace, graphics, range of options, point scoring system is all well thought out and I congratulate the authors of the game.

There is one issue of balance though. I don't know anyone else's opinion but after playing, spectating, and reading the forums I get the feeling that the game becomes unbalanced at points (especially at S3). I don't know if this unbalance is intentional by the authors or not. In one post I read that in general and everything else is equal Aliens win 85% of the time if S3 is achieved by them. The only thing stopping them at S3 is a REALLY disciplined team of players who will camp out for a while and let the tyrant die out by chasing down and killing the wounded.

Like I said I don't know if this is intentional or not, and maybe someone can tell me.

Is there a way to even the odds?

[kevlarman]

the only noticable imbalance comes at sd, because the aliens can work without a base, just a bunch of hidden eggs, while the humans need to have everything in a centralised location (and the armory is particularly weak). s3 is fine, and if anything is imbalanced, it's s2 towards humans. the reason that the game seems imbalanced to many is that noobs flock to humans, and when better players get tired of it, they start playing aliens more often (i will refuse to play humans very often if i can't trust the builder, or if i can't trust the rest of the team to get some kills while i build). also, i don't know if this is common on other servers, but a bunch of people on the server i frequent are really tired of noobs voting for atcs or voting for a map restart on atcs (the map gets old if it happens to be every other map you play), so all the skilled players will stack aliens and end the game in 7 minutes.

[Jaradcel]

I tend to play humans, and all I can say is this: Humans _NEED TO WIN_ before the aliens hit S3. Aliens have a distinct advantage in S1 with dretches headshotting everything (And goons rule anyone who doesn't have a low enough ping to spam him with a few good shots) but in S2 humans generally pull even and pull ahead slightly.

But with S3, the aliens have everything in their favor and keel anything that moves.

[FX-Arch]

I tend to play humans, and all I can say is this: Humans _NEED TO WIN_ before the aliens hit S3. Aliens have a distinct advantage in S1 with dretches headshotting everything (And goons rule anyone who doesn't have a low enough ping to spam him with a few good shots) but in S2 humans generally pull even and pull ahead slightly.

But with S3, the aliens have everything in their favor and keel anything that moves.

I disargee. B-suit + Lucie could kill a tyrant. Or jetpack + Lucie to shoot the tyrant from above. If you play it right humans are just as good as aliens in s3.

[Ksempac]

The official stats (sorry cant remember the URL) prove that the game is balanced...at least for the servers with the number of players it is meant to be played (12-25).

If you play on SST where there can be up to 50 players, its pretty much another game with lot of turrets or egg farm...i dont know what is the ratio of win on this specific server.

[kozak6]

It's difficult to judge balance in Tremulous.

A terrible human team will beat a terrible alien team every time, for example.

[Stof]

The official stats (sorry cant remember the URL) prove that the game is balanced...

Do they ? After all stats can't lie. What is the definition of a balanced game ? If it when there is 50% wins for both sides on untrusted, unmonitored public servers, then yes the game is balanced. But is the game still balanced when both teams do all it takes to win the game ? Have you faced a team of really good human players all using chaingun + 1 odd massdriver or pulse rifle ? And the same at stage 3 with battlesuit. Aliens have no counter for that and if they do not have the Tyrants soon, they are dead, and even with them it's hard.

But such thing doesn't happen often on public servers so you can say that Tremulous is indeed balanced when most of the games are played by noobs only.

[Rippy]

balance graph

From that, you can tell that aliens start with about a 58% chance of winning, compared the humans' 42%. As the # of players increase, so does the aliens' win percentage, up to around a 74% win percentage in a 45 player game.

Ummm, I don't think that's balanced. I mean, in THEORY a bsuit + luci is just as powerful in the right hands as a tyrant is. But obviously that's not enough.

The thing is, that graph doesn't help enough, because it doesn't tell you what stage these games usually end in. (unless it does and I don't see it) All it'd take would be a graph for each team, that's very similar to the regular one, exept instead of wins it displays the stage (1, 2, 3 and sd) the game ended in. Of course, each team's graph would only record the stage of the games they WON. Hopefully that makes sense, I just figure that'll help a lot to know WHAT to balance.

Also kevlar brought up a good point, aliens can survive with a couple eggs and an OM (they're not gonna last without evolving), but humans need their armoury, reactor, telenodes, and medipad (although to a lesser extent), and all gathered in one place.


(Note: I'm assuming I read that graph right, it's not exactly intuitive)

[Moofed]

http://tremulous.net/balance/ is the full list of balance graphs.  Bear in mind that there is more to balance than these graphs, and that fun is more important than balance.  If we wanted perfect balance, we would have identical teams with symetrical maps. But that is boring.  So instead we play a necesarily imbalanced game and bitch about getting unfairly pwnt.

[Stof]

If we wanted perfect balance, we could implement a random coin toss at the start of the game and decide which team wins based on that

[FX-Arch]

If we wanted perfect balance, we could implement a random coin toss at the start of the game and decide which team wins based on that

Or draw a number, number 1 = win, number 2 = lose. Veerryyy fast games  

[tuple]

Then finally I wouldn't be wasting my life away playing tremulous!  

[KorJax]

Actually, it really depends on the players+server.  That graph, i ASSUME, is for the SST server, seing as it has 50 players on the graph as a varable.

However, on TJW's server, things are different.  That server has higher build points, and only 14-16 players max.  Also, it tends to have really good ping (because there are not tons of players, and its a good server), and it tends to have expereinced people play in that server.

And the stats for TJW's server dont lie either, it clearly shows the Alien team winning an almost equal amount of times as the human team does.

So, its safe to assume that Tremulous is most balanced when there are a normal amount of people playing, and when both teams use proper tactics for thier side.

Such as, a major problem with "balance" is purly that the players ARE NOT using effective tactics or building placement.  The main problem, is that humans tend to let themselves get boxed into thier base at S1, and stay there the entire game.   If you can be offensive against the aliens, you WILL win.

Of course, that is hard at S1 because you dont have helmits, and therefore a really good dretch player can kill you in 1-2 hits.

At S2, its EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that the Human team remebers to attack and be agressive AS A WHOLE during S2 (or S1 if you can), otherwise you will just let the Alien team have controll of the map, and box you in your base if they get to S3.

The main thing is, the Alien base is very weak.  If you can be agressive, its very possible to make the Alien side crippled even if they get to S3 before you do.

Because, even if the Aleins have Tyrants and Adv. Goons, they are easily destroyed if they have no base to retreat to, and if they have no controll over the map.

This is like basic RTS stratigy here.  The problem is that the entire human team often tends to just run+gun and play a RAMBO instead of using RTS-esk stratigy to defeat the enemy, and let me tell you, standard FPS tactics WILL NOT singlehandily win the match.  You have to think like an RTS player and an FPS player as well.

[Henners]

The game is balanced

the players are not

that is all - this arguement has been thrashed out so many times now its just not worth going into anymore.

[kevlarman]

The game is balanced

the players are not

that is all - this arguement has been thrashed out so many times now its just not worth going into anymore.

no objection?  :cry:

[FisherP]

Thank you for the input everyone. If I can summarize all the discussion, and there is quite some disagreement here. There is imbalance due mostly to new players, like me, who favour the human team due to either what they are use to in other games (like doom or counter strike) or they find playing aliens difficult (like me). The new players come in, try to have some fun, get wasted, and unfortuately spoil the fun of the experienced players. I know I have done this, and I apologise to anyone who was pissed off at me for 'feeding' or blowing up the base, or killing you with FF, or blocking our tyrant bcause I was on the floor or......

Let me argue this for a second. New players is what keeps a game alive, new blood, new skills (if they don't get kicked or bored because of losing too much), new ideas... and most of all a larger customer base. The more new players the longer it takes for the game to get old. BTW anyone intrested in starting up a new server in Australia, I tried to get on last night and the server was full :-(

I don't know the fix especially if the advantage goes towards the humans at S3 in normal play, experienced players both sides. If the advantages swing in favour of the humans at S3 then noone will want to learn how to be an alien and there goes the game. I understand some of the tactics mentions about being an offensive unit, I was on a human team recently that just kicked Alien butt (I was even top of the leader board in kills for a while . The tactic we used was Attack, then Attack, then Attack some more while some people were building a better base. We got the aliens before they reached S3, Which for my sake was a REAL advantage since I haven't got the hang of using a bsuit and luci combo yet, and I just get freaked when a Tyrant comes my way.

I don't think I will stop playing but there is a lot of people who seem to be highly strung on the servers and get REALLY pissed if a new player makes a mistake that eventually leads to a loss.... To be clear, I am not talking about players who will not learn and don't want to, those people deserve kicking, or banning.... I like the example of a person online who would 'LOL' win or lose, I like and respect that attitude, it's a game after all ..... unless you've made a bet on win or lose :-)

[Henners]

no objection?  :cry:

I can do one if you really want - but i'm just so bored of this sort of thread now I just cant muster up enough enthusiam at the moment. At least the op this time has some actual common sense, and shows some decent thinking in his above post. Good stuff I suppose. Still plenty of idiots sticking their oars in though.

[Harry Joe]

An offensive human team with 1-2 players who can aim will tear apart aliens without a thought. Luckily for alien players, a lot of humans think the pinnacle of strategy is sitting on a turret.

Luckily for humans though there are always some idiots who will straight rush that turret a dozen times before getting lucky with a kill.

As mentioned, the biggest unbalance is the players.

[Pacra]

I'm wondering when people will finally realize that the Stages are meant to be unbalanced.  It's a balance of imbalances, that relies on player kills to progress.  No more, no less.  
In a nutshell, what Harry Joe said.

[Lava Croft]

I'll keep my reply short by saying that a Human team that plays with proper teamwork will win over the Alien team, that is in a 6on6-ish match.

[Jaradcel]

Ah ha! Pacra sums up what I really meant in a nutshell, thank you.

I agree that a solid human team can trump an S3 team of rampaging aliens (I've seen it before, and I'm sure I'll see it again) and I won't argue with that one.

The game is balanced in its imbalances. I shoulda said that

As to whoever it was who wanted to set up an Aussie server: BE MY GUEST!!! I want to be a LPB for once (the only servers I can come close is Popsky's Hong Kong servers) and actuallly go shoot things instead of being a builder

[Stof]

I'm wondering when people will finally realize that the Stages are meant to be unbalanced.  It's a balance of imbalances, that relies on player kills to progress.  No more, no less.  
In a nutshell, what Harry Joe said.

Yeah, that's why human stage 1 is boring : against good alien players with goons, you have little choice but to camp the base until stage 2. Balanced ? Maybe. Desired ? I would gladly have that changed some way or another !