Sudden Death

[MadMan2k]

I consider Sudden Death a gameplay hack since it tries to hide an obvious gameplay problem.
This is that a slightly advantaged team cant win right now since the advatage will be evened by the other teams base.
This results in the inferior team camping to the end. I observed this on several servers with no sudden death or sd at 55.
While games on servers with sd at 35 alomst always find an end before timelimit is hit. The difference is that the tesla is worth your 5 evo points since it cant be easily rebuild and thus gives your team an advantage.

Therefore I suggest getting rid of sd in favor of harder to rebuild structures.
My idea is that you first have to collect some build points before you can actually build something.
These build-points should be placed randomly across the map but favoured around the enemies base.

This would solve several problems:
1. an inferior team will lose at s1 since they will run out of build points.
2. in order to prevent 1. humans will be forced to leave the base before s3
(3.) if you make only builder able to collect the build points this will add a more tactical note to the game (like the hunted mode in team fortress)

aliens could collect dontus(to feed the om) while humans could collect small balls of    aluminium foil.

[Survivor]

1. an inferior team will lose at s1 since they will run out of build points.
2. in order to prevent 1. humans will be forced to leave the base before s3

So you're suggesting an already bad team to go out and get massacred resulting in the good team reaching s2 and maybe even s3 quickly?

[Caveman]

Your proposal would change trem completely, in every aspect.

[Basilisco]

The humans camp because they decide to camp. Most of the times the aliens have the crappiest base possible, and the humans won't know that because they don't get out the base.

When the human team actually leaves the base, they own.
_____________
About sudden death. SD just opens the eyes of those inside the base, and make them think "hey, at sd we might get owned. Let's try to win!"

aliens could collect dontus(to feed the om) while humans could collect small balls of    aluminium foil.

Sounds fun! LOL

*munch*   *munch*

[MadMan2k]

So you're suggesting an already bad team to go out and get massacred resulting in the good team reaching s2 and maybe even s3 quickly?

exactly. IMO this is much better than having to wait until sudden death to finish them.

and if they go out in groups the better team will still have to prove that they actually can work as a team...

[Paradox]

Alien bases are very difficult to build well. The human base is rather simple. Put turrets so (A): People can get through them (B): Aliens cant get through them. After that, just stick structures in an accessable but hidden place, and you will have the best human base.

[Rippy]

See the thing is, usually aliens have map control at the start of the game. The only reason they don't win right there is because humans can quickly build up their turret defense to hold off the s1 aliens. So basically, the humans would have no chance: They don't have the points to build their turrets to hold off the aliens, and they don't have the map control OR the secure base needed to go find their energy packets. This would cause lots of games to end in s1, and Tremulous is meant to go on until at least s2.

Basically, bases have defenses for exactly the thing you want to remove: to stop the team with the advantage from ending the game in 2 minutes. It gives the other team plenty of time for a comeback, which is entirely possible if the other team gets over-confident and ends up feeding a bit. And it just plain draws the game out so that it makes use of all the benefits of each stage. Sudden death only exists for when neither team can penetrate each other's defense. That's not a "gameplay hack hiding an obvious gameplay problem", it's a good measure in place to end stalemates.

[David]

Or you could increase the cooldown time on the ckit.
make it harder to rebuild quickly between attacks. also you could make repairing have a cooldown time, but that would only affect humans.

[Rippy]

Or you could increase the cooldown time on the ckit.
make it harder to rebuild quickly between attacks. also you could make repairing have a cooldown time, but that would only affect humans.

Cooldown time won't solve anything, it'd just make the entire team help build instead of only having a couple people doing it.

[Juno]

if one team cant finish off the other then its a draw .end of disscussion


if a crap team can manage to reach the timelimit against pros then they deserve the draw


dont take that away from them






and its always funny when a huge team of humans at s3 all with bsuits and lucis cant finish off an s2 alien team

[MadMan2k]

That's not a "gameplay hack hiding an obvious gameplay problem", it's a good measure in place to end stalemates.

but if a stalemate is a common situation this is IMO becomes a gameplay problem.
And as humans learn how to build good bases and aliens how to play tyrant I indeed see stalements very often.

The only reason they don't win right there is because humans can quickly build up their turret defense to hold off the s1 aliens.

you could still let the teams start with full build points so they could camp behind them. but if an alien blayer manages to become goon before humans can afford a shotgun, he should be able to take down the defense.
And later in the game it would force those battlesuits to come out for point-raids. I played several games where all humans did was lucifer spamming all entrances until sd and then come out and blast aliens away - understandable since it is hard to finish a good egg-spamming builder before tyrants come back.

Basically, bases have defenses for exactly the thing you want to remove: to stop the team with the advantage from ending the game in 2 minutes.

an comeback is ok, but I think having the base wiped out should be the end and not the beggining of an endless egghunting.

same for basecamping: if all you can do is luci-spam the entrances, aliens should be able to take the teslas out by one.
You might argue that aliens should do an coordinated rush, but with tyrants blocking the whole hallway and with ff on this is almost impossible.

[MadMan2k]

if a crap team can manage to reach the timelimit against pros then they deserve the draw

surley, but I refer to the situations when they get raped at sd.

[next_ghost]

As I said earlier in another thread, it's all in turret effectivity. While alien defenses lose effectivity when humans outstage them (acid tube is just annoyance for armoured human and trapper for battlesuiter), human stage1 turrets are just as effective in stage3 as in stage1. While alien defenses become more annoying than dangerous to humans, turrets are impassable at stage1 and dangerous at stage3 for aliens. Aliens trade brute force for dexterity while humans face no such decision at all. If turrets would lose some effectivity when aliens outstage them, stalemates would not happen so often in clearly one-sided matches.

[Rippy]

As I said earlier in another thread, it's all in turret effectivity. While alien defenses lose effectivity when humans outstage them (acid tube is just annoyance for armoured human and trapper for battlesuiter), human stage1 turrets are just as effective in stage3 as in stage1. While alien defenses become more annoying than dangerous to humans, turrets are impassable at stage1 and dangerous at stage3 for aliens. Aliens trade brute force for dexterity while humans face no such decision at all. If turrets would lose some effectivity when aliens outstage them, stalemates would not happen so often in clearly one-sided matches.

Well summarized. I find that in the late-game, alien defenses protect extremely well against the weaker/late-joining players without armour, assuming you've got a good trapper/tube/hive placement. But bsuits just run through all that, luci the base, and it's done.

But that's all part of the game, though. Aliens are meant to have penetrable defenses, but they have the speed and regeneration capabilities that allow them to control the map. Humans have stronger defense but need defenders to stop hit-and-runs and turret hops. Although it could use some fine-tuning, it's nice to have two completely unique teams.

As for getting through turrets, maybe an adv Tyrant upgrade could be made, giving it some kind of ability effective against turrets (possibly disabling them temporarily).

And finally, no, I find most of the games I play don't end in sudden death. Which is why it isn't an issue. However what IS an issue is that in most of the games I play, sudden death is only reached because aliens are dominant but can't get through the human defense, and need sudden death in order to win. It's never the other way around. That's the only thing that needs tweaking imo.

[Stof]

It's never the other way around. That's the only thing that needs tweaking imo.

Well, it happens too, sometimes on an endless egg hunt in transit, other times with half the human team controling the level but half the team isn't strong enouth to break the alien base ( what is the other half of the human team doing ? Probably some turret loving or something, don't really want to know )

[next_ghost]

As for getting through turrets, maybe an adv Tyrant upgrade could be made, giving it some kind of ability effective against turrets (possibly disabling them temporarily).

As I said in the same thread mentioned earlier, Adv Marauder zap could disable turrets (not teslas) for 0.1 second for each 1hp damage dealt. When the zap will be capped to 80hp total damage, it will mean this:

1st turret: 42hp - 4.2 seconds down
2nd turret: 26hp - 2.6 seconds down
3rd turret: 13hp - 1.3 seconds down

After you start zapping, you have to wait 1.5 seconds before you can do another attack. If you've noticed the total damage dealt to 3 turrets is 81 and not 80, it's the way the damage cap works.

If you think that those shutdown times are too long, Defence Computer could half them. That way, the 2nd turret would not stay down all the time and the 3rd turret would not shut down at all (it will receive 1hp damage per 50ms and 50ms is also server frame time so it will most likely get disabled at the end of frame, recover at the beginning of another, shoot, get disabled, recover, shoot and so on...).

[Juno]

As for getting through turrets, maybe an adv Tyrant upgrade could be made, giving it some kind of ability effective against turrets (possibly disabling them temporarily).

lol rippy its nice that you keep putting out ideas for people to disscuss, and i know i never flame you

but........






just no lol. tyrant is strong enough

disabling turrets would be a bad idea. as you may have seen, one extreme is that tyrants completely pwn, because the human team is s1 or noobs or has a bad base

the other extreme, is that even with 3 adv goons and 3 tyrants, we still couldnt take the human base, and fair play to them, the humans defended well ( althought there was alot of luci and pulse spam lol)




the game is balanced full stop. the teams may not be



that is the only problem.

 tyrants can easily be dodged if they arnt that good. A chaingun will rip em to shreds. i play as both alot. i tend to get pwned on good servers, but ony a good day i can get into the top 3 kills

my point is im not that good, but i KNOW that the game is balanced. as a tyrant i get killed with chainguns but as a chaingunner i still get killed when facing tyrants


so it can be done


its all a question of skill. and playing on low ping servers. i get raped over by lag

[Ksempac]

As for getting through turrets, maybe an adv Tyrant upgrade could be made, giving it some kind of ability effective against turrets (possibly disabling them temporarily).

As I said in the same thread mentioned earlier, Adv Marauder zap could disable turrets (not teslas) for 0.1 second for each 1hp damage dealt. When the zap will be capped to 80hp total damage, it will mean this:

1st turret: 42hp - 4.2 seconds down
2nd turret: 26hp - 2.6 seconds down
3rd turret: 13hp - 1.3 seconds down

After you start zapping, you have to wait 1.5 seconds before you can do another attack. If you've noticed the total damage dealt to 3 turrets is 81 and not 80, it's the way the damage cap works.

If you think that those shutdown times are too long, Defence Computer could half them. That way, the 2nd turret would not stay down all the time and the 3rd turret would not shut down at all (it will receive 1hp damage per 50ms and 50ms is also server frame time so it will most likely get disabled at the end of frame, recover at the beginning of another, shoot, get disabled, recover, shoot and so on...).

And we already said it was a bad idea. Take 2 adv marauders + 1 dragoon. First marauder zap the turrets, 1s later 2nd marauder zap the turrets, dragoon takes care of every human who will dare say something about that, repeat as many times as necessary.

[tomek-k]

Sudden death... yeah, I've noticed such info during the play ("SD in 5 minutes" or so), but have never figuerd out what the SD does...  :roll: Nobody has died suddenly
I've noticed no change in the gameplay either. So what the SD actually mean in Trem?
I haven't found any info about it in the manual (maby I was to lazy to look for it in the full text instead of just reading the table of contents)

[kevlarman]

Sudden death... yeah, I've noticed such info during the play ("SD in 5 minutes" or so), but have never figuerd out what the SD does...  :roll: Nobody has died suddenly
I've noticed no change in the gameplay either. So what the SD actually mean in Trem?
I haven't found any info about it in the manual (maby I was to lazy to look for it in the full text instead of just reading the table of contents)

i would tell you to search for it, but that takes almost as much effort as typing the answer (next time, search before asking): during sudden death, you can't build any new structures, or rebuild those that have been destroyed (some servers will let you build structures that cost 0 build points)

[Chojin]

What about this: https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2816

[tomek-k]

Sudden death... yeah, I've noticed such info during the play ("SD in 5 minutes" or so), but have never figuerd out what the SD does...  :roll: Nobody has died suddenly
I've noticed no change in the gameplay either. So what the SD actually mean in Trem?
I haven't found any info about it in the manual (maby I was to lazy to look for it in the full text instead of just reading the table of contents)

i would tell you to search for it, but that takes almost as much effort as typing the answer (next time, search before asking): during sudden death, you can't build any new structures, or rebuild those that have been destroyed (some servers will let you build structures that cost 0 build points)

Thanx!

[Ksempac]

Joined : 19 July 2006

You ve been on the game for a month and a half and you never figured out what was SD ?  :eek:

Have you ever been a builder ? Have you ever read the messages send by your teamates ? Have you ever talked to your team ?

[tomek-k]

Joined : 19 July 2006

You ve been on the game for a month and a half and you never figured out what was SD ?  :eek:

Have you ever been a builder ? Have you ever read the messages send by your teamates ? Have you ever talked to your team ?

Hehe. I have been a builder and sometimes could not build... But the messages claimed that there is no power left or sth. Maby I haven't noticed any other messages.
And none of my teammates ever told me anything about SD or I havent noticed it either...

[next_ghost]

And we already said it was a bad idea. Take 2 adv marauders + 1 dragoon. First marauder zap the turrets, 1s later 2nd marauder zap the turrets, dragoon takes care of every human who will dare say something about that, repeat as many times as necessary.

Soooo, you say that 2 adv maras and a goon should not be able to go anywhere near human base even as a team while 2 helmeted humans with pulse rifles and a helmeted human with shotgun usually have no problem entering and leaving alien base in one piece and with lots of frags unless they shoot each other more than aliens.

If humans have at least basic equipment and working mouse button, the goon will have to retreat in about a second and maras shortly after him. Skilled players will have no real problem with this, only total noobs won't be able to camp turrets for 20 minutes or so.

[Paradox]

The alien base damage structures need a tune up, because as you said, a human can run in and out without getting that big a boobo, while a dragoon, the best alien for 2 stages, can die in 2 turrets very quickly.

[Somtin]

What about making it so you cant spawn and granger, or spawn with C/Kit, and cant switch to C/Kit from armoury? That way, as long as there is a builder you can rebuild, but if there are no builders left, you are left with just fighting.