Author Topic: speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging  (Read 4476 times)

icewyrm

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« on: August 28, 2006, 02:34:12 am »
Hiya, been playing tremulous a bit since the last release, been enjoying it quite a bit.  There are a few little things which would make things more interesting (from my personal perspective) while playing from either the alien or marine side of things, that I wanted to share with any interested parties here.  I tried to find a thread containing the same content via search and some browsing, but didn't come across one, apologies if one exists already.

From my perspective, humans across the board are just a little too quick and maneuverable.  I haven't pulled down the source and checked hard figures (been meaning to, haven't got around to it yet sorry), but considering that (especially early game) aliens are relying 100% on melee attacks for combat action, it just doesn't quite feel balanced.  Wallwalking is great for evading and dodging attacks, but in many situations it is no substitute for raw speed, and it seems all too easy for marines to hunt down fleeing aliens.  Beeing able to shoot aliens as they try to run away at short distances is fine, being able to chase aliens down in a speed match around corners, through doors and corridors etc feels kinda weird.  A slight speed decrease for marines (say 10%? even 5%?) and a slight increase of the same amount for aliens would balance things nicely, without nerfing or boosting either side to such an extent that it would cause grief to fans of the current stats.

The speed issue is compounded somewhat by the fact that all aliens have very visible skin coloration, and marines generally blend in slightly better with their surroundings.  Every alien (except possibly the granger) shows up very easily against most wall textures, and aliens have quite wide models that don't seem to line up with the player view camera; this can make hiding behind obstructions or stealth tactics very difficult because you can't be sure if a large and obvious body part might not be sticking out and giving you away over a large distance.  This mainly affects basilisks and dretches because of their low health and (relatively) weak melee capabilities.


An alien that had some kind of weak ranged attack early in the game would make an interesting change in the psychology of the average human player;  if a small, quick and relatively hard to notice alien managed to get to a place within the human base they could harry human structures or create holes in the defence that would cause human players to be more base conscientious, and make base defense/maintenance more intense and fun.  They could also offer dretches some much needed support against roving teams of humans, and provide a simple counter to jetpackers hovering in the middle of wide open spaces, since jetpacks cut out when their user takes damage.  

Also, any chance grangers could get the ability to climb ladders (pre s2)?  sucks when you fall down a hole and have to evolve to a dretch to get out :D

Oh, and for humans, is there any chance they might be able to one day trade in their blasters, pay some credits and trade in for a high power short clip pistol?  Pistols are always fun :|

On a final note, any time I mention balance in the above paragraphs, it's when the two players fighting are of approximately equal skill level.  The contents of this post are based on my experiences playing on both sides, and from carefully observing other players as well.

kevlarman

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Re: speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 04:28:22 am »
Quote from: "icewyrm"
From my perspective, humans across the board are just a little too quick and maneuverable.  I haven't pulled down the source and checked hard figures (been meaning to, haven't got around to it yet sorry), but considering that (especially early game) aliens are relying 100% on melee attacks for combat action, it just doesn't quite feel balanced.  Wallwalking is great for evading and dodging attacks, but in many situations it is no substitute for raw speed, and it seems all too easy for marines to hunt down fleeing aliens.  Beeing able to shoot aliens as they try to run away at short distances is fine, being able to chase aliens down in a speed match around corners, through doors and corridors etc feels kinda weird.  A slight speed decrease for marines (say 10%? even 5%?) and a slight increase of the same amount for aliens would balance things nicely, without nerfing or boosting either side to such an extent that it would cause grief to fans of the current stats.
all aliens are already a lot faster moving in a straight line than humans (with the exception of grangers and basilisks), you just have to strafe jump.
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Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
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Howitzer

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 03:48:03 pm »
And all aliens that move in a straight line from or to humans are dead before they know it.

MadMan2k

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 04:44:55 pm »
I have to disagree on the speed issue. The dretch fighting on s1 depends mainly a practice - I can  take on 3 humans with a dretch and take down at least one of them. consider that you need only 2 bites to take down a human - only 1 if he is not full health or 3 if you manage only chest bites.
The evading is ok either - if you increase the speed difference it will be very hard to take down an alien, especially marauders and chasing aliens is already dangerous since most likeley noone will follow you but the aliens friends will wait around the corner.

All in all I would say that the fights are pretty much balanced right now but the core strategy around it is horribly messed up; base building, weapon buying(credit system) etc.

btw: can someone remove that "new topic" button please

[EVIL]Unknown

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 04:50:57 pm »
i have no complaints about aliens not being fast enough... the game seems pretty balanced to me in the end all is dependent on skill of players and there is no sure way to balance individual skill.. as for not being able to run as dragoon and such... y would u run??

have u ever heard of kamakazee... u dive in to a bunch of humans kill about 5 and die.. u come back and evolve again to goon and u have that extra 2 evos.. repeat and ull have the max amount of evos ... i usually dont evolve to bigger aliens unless i know im gonna follow through to the death and get a bunch of humans on the way to hell :)

other than that i stay as dretch untill s2 which i switch to mara with booster and we all know that equalls pwnage plus base ownage
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MadMan2k

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 05:12:43 pm »
Quote from: "[EVIL
Unknown"] i usually dont evolve to bigger aliens unless i know im gonna follow through to the death and get a bunch of humans on the way to hell :)

tahts one of my bigger complaints. I would like to play dragoon without watching my health just like I play dretch. Id rather see some kind of experience system so you can always evolve into tyrant once youve reached a certain experience level. This would also ease entering in late games and suicde just to help that idiot of a builder. Furthermore it would make humans camp less since they could not hold up long against a tyrant rush but could in turn try to luci rush the alien base.

icewyrm

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 11:41:56 pm »
Quote
I have to disagree on the speed issue. The dretch fighting on s1 depends mainly a practice - I can take on 3 humans with a dretch and take down at least one of them. consider that you need only 2 bites to take down a human - only 1 if he is not full health or 3 if you manage only chest bites.


See, this is what I was talking about.  How many of the humans that you take down, are skilled and experienced players with good aiming, dodging and tactical skills?  For starters, with three humans shooting at you with their rifles, how are you even getting close enough to bite them?  

The majority of kills I see aliens getting are impatient humans who just want to get out of their base and kill things, and get taken down by small swarms of aliens or around somewhat alien friendly terrain, but skilled players rarely fall into these traps in the first place.

Well, time will tell in any case; if the current playerbase stays around for a while imbalances will become far more apparent as equivalent skills are developed among more players.

Vector_Matt

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Re: speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2006, 03:57:08 pm »
Quote from: "icewyrm"
An alien that had some kind of weak ranged attack early in the game...
I like this idea, but I can see how it could be hard to balance properly, perhaps give the basilisk or basilisk+ a ranged attack of this sort (would make basilisk more useful, right now they mainly are only good against a single semi-unaware marine.).

Ranger

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2006, 06:48:51 pm »
I agree with the coloring issue, lisk should be made black or have a camo effect inplanted. For the adv one, at least.
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krakensden

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speedy melee vs ranged attacking and dodging
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2006, 03:48:48 am »
Quote

See, this is what I was talking about. How many of the humans that you take down, are skilled and experienced players with good aiming, dodging and tactical skills? For starters, with three humans shooting at you with their rifles, how are you even getting close enough to bite them?

The majority of kills I see aliens getting are impatient humans who just want to get out of their base and kill things, and get taken down by small swarms of aliens or around somewhat alien friendly terrain, but skilled players rarely fall into these traps in the first place.

I think this is a very important point. As soon as some lightweight skilled teamwork starts happening, alien teams will be in big trouble. Also, in the event that the network code is ever fixed, killing people as a dretch may become almost impossible, because the newbies won't be shooting behind you any more!