change credit system

[MadMan2k]

I saw this basic idea somwhere and expanded it a bit as a way to get rid that "sudden death bug".
simply move from an credit based system to an experience based one. The
difference is that you cant lose experience once you gained it.
IMO this would fix a bunch of problems:
- no more time based credits: experience allows a much more grained reward
system (per turret kill, per building use)
- no more easy fill up by lucifering dretches (like in diablo: killing inferior
opponents gives you nothing)
- base camping less attractive, since you get more exp by killing the alien
without the help of an turret
- base camping less useful, since enemy wont run out of credits; and if you are
inferior you wont hold on luci/ tyrant rush anyway
- more focus on fighting than on surviving -> no frustration by accidently
running into a full cahrged tyrant/ luci
- makes more sense with evolution and stuff
- roleplaying elements possible: you wont get the plasma rifle until your
lasgun skill is high enough (^^)

[Paradox]

The game, credit system, and balance is fine.

[PIE]

http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1837

I think its a bad idea. The anti-camping slant is intersting.. but still not justification since camping no matter how much people complain about it, is indeed a valid strategy and in some situations is the only reasonable option to prevent feeding until you are strong enough to venture out in teams at a latter stage.

[Henners]

It seems you have left me little choice

OBJECTION

[vcxzet]

dretches are not inferior if you have BS+luci. and they can kill you in seconds because you lose them easily

[PIE]

dretches are not inferior if you have BS+luci. and they can kill you in seconds because you lose them easily

... are you insane... wtf are you talking about.. have you played tremulous? I consider myself a pretty good dretch.. and it takes me almost forever to kill even the most inept bsuit.. and unless they have no idea how to use the luci close range that weapon can make it substantially harder..... I hope that was a joke and I just didn't get it.

[vcxzet]

dretches are not inferior if you have BS+luci. and they can kill you in seconds because you lose them easily

... are you insane... wtf are you talking about.. have you played tremulous? I consider myself a pretty good dretch.. and it takes me almost forever to kill even the most inept bsuit..... I hope that was a joke and I just didn't get it.

I said dretches. I am talking about 3 or more dretches

[David]

i have only once got a bsuit and lucy dude with a dretch (not including times when he was already hurt)
i sat on his head, with poison, and hung on long enough to kill him. it was fun
took long enough tho.

[MadMan2k]

It seems you have left me little choice

OBJECTION

if no alien has enough experience to go tyrant and hold them back by that time aliens deserver to lose. and what exactly what was so stupid about my post?

[MadMan2k]

The game, credit system, and balance is fine.

no, its not and I am more right than you because I say so.

[Odin]

The game, credit system, and balance is fine.

no, its not and I am more right than you because I say so.

lyke, i m more betterer than u cuz i am cuz i say so lol

[MadMan2k]

I think its a bad idea. The anti-camping slant is intersting.. but still not justification since camping no matter how much people complain about it, is indeed a valid strategy and in some situations is the only reasonable option to prevent feeding until you are strong enough to venture out in teams at a latter stage.

If virtually everybody complains about it, its a gameplay error. The problem with camping is that it is that it applies to humans only and theres no real counter for it.(sudden death is another gameplay error)
And in fact you still can take advantage of your base, it will be just less effective against tyrants; you will be forced to catch them with chain/ luci before they reach the base - if you cant, you deserve to lose.

http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1837

that thread has some valid points I will try to adress them when I am not going to fall asleep.

[PIE]

If virtually everybody complains about it, its a gameplay error.

Sudden death is not a hack/bug, and camping is not an error... We disccussed camping here before... when used right it can work.. often it isn't used right.. but either way weak alien teams complain about weak camping human teams.  I'd like to see squads of humans leaving and cooperating.. and I have.. but then 4 dretches come along and it disintigrates and half the team dies.... and the other half runs back to base. The problem is more than just camping.
And aliens can hide eggs while humans are camping.. they can take advantage of it.. I'd like to see humans hide a telenode!

You can't catch every tyrant.. and you sure as hell can't catch every goon/mara..  If you catch every tyrant that runs, the alien team is uncoradinated and deserves to loose. :p

[Ksempac]

Ok since dont seem to understand what is good with the system we have now, i m gonna speak about what is wrong about your system.

- no more time based credits: experience allows a much more grained reward
system (per turret kill, per building use)

If you go for building use, someone just need to sell and buy his rifle a hundred time, or hurt himself and go to the medistation to get a lot of experience

- base camping less attractive, since you get more exp by killing the alien
without the help of an turret

This is not an argument.
You already get more credits by killing the alien without the helf of a turret.

- base camping less useful, since enemy wont run out of credits; and if you are inferior you wont hold on luci/ tyrant rush anyway

So you re saying that if a team gets the upper hand on the first 10 min, they should win.

- more focus on fighting than on surviving -> no frustration by accidently running into a full cahrged tyrant/ luci

Since you will always keep your lucy and tyrant, this means you will always run accidently into a tyrant because you cant get rid of him.

So basically what you are proposing is : Every kill gives experience and you cant loose it. When you reach a certain limit, you get access to new weapons.
- This means a good player will get their hand on the deadliest weapons really fast and will kill even more guys who then have no chance of winning (try killing a tyrant with your shotgun). This means a good player can determine the issue of a 6vs6 game all by himself. Way to go...
- Moreover most of the game will end in 15 min, because a team will get the upper hand in the beginning, get access to the best weapons/evo, and  then do some suicide rush in the base to finish the game quickly.
- And my last point is that with this system you dont allow people to get a chance to change the situation by camping/hiding eggs and wait for the free credits/evo points which is one of the thing that makes the game fun : you re never sure you will win if you dont make good use of the 5 min during which you have the upper hand. I m sure you ve already be in a game with your team at level 1 and the other one at level 3, but your team resisted and you managed to win and feel proud of it.

P.S : Stop the double-posting. EDIT button is your friend  :evil:

[Stof]

Credit system is a contagious disease brought upon us by the servant of the dark that is CS and needs to be eradicated from our holy ground!

I'm with you for that one but for one thing:

- base camping less attractive, since you get more exp by killing the alien without the help of an turret

I don't think we need changes to the base defenses and the way players get credits for kills made with their help. Why? Because we do need a deterent for the mindless behaviour of throwing a goon/tyrant at the turrets until it passes. Such behaviour shall of course be encouraged if it means a swift victory for the team ( ie, if it's effective ) and if not, it should be considered feeding and be penalised as such. How it works currently is fine.

However, once the oponents have reach a high enouth level, feeding deterent becomes pointless and so you can do as you want. That should help make the teams cautious until late in the game and extremly agressive then.

[Juno]

[rant]you sir, are a sausage

I move from an credit based system to an experience based one.

as said before the system is fine and the game is balanced

 

The
difference is that you cant lose experience once you gained it.
IMO this would fix a bunch of problems

no it will create more. would you really want uber players constantly having "max experience"[/quote]

no more easy fill up by lucifering dretches (like in diablo: killing inferior opponents gives you nothing

dretches own fault for not dodge, and being silly enough to take on a bsuit with a luci as a dretch, unless they really know how to play

also, i dont want they only way to get "experience" (once im maxed out), to be killing tyrants, and have every alien kill below that useless towards my "experience"

base camping less attractive, since you get more exp by killing the alien

so you suggest that humans should not stay near the base, and always be on the attack?

wana explain how that works when humans are s1, and aliens s2 or 3? base camping is needed from time to time!

base camping less useful, since enemy wont run out of credits

right so let me get this straight? after all the idea above, you want people to never run out of credits !!!!OMG!!!!??!/??oNe!!

tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out node
tyrant charges takes out node
tyrant charges takes out med
tyrant charges takes out DC
tyrant charges takes out amoury

GAME OVER

or

luci bsuit rushes takes out tube
luci bsuit rushes takes out tube
luci bsuit rushes takes out tube
luci bsuit rushes takes out tube
luci bsuit rushes takes out tube
luci bsuit rushes takes out egg
luci bsuit rushes takes out egg
luci bsuit rushes takes out egg
luci bsuit rushes takes out egg
luci bsuit rushes takes out egg
luci bsuit rushes takes out OM

GAME OVER


 

roleplaying elements possible: you wont get the plasma rifle until your lasgun skill is high enough

i dont have a clue what you mean here? you need more skill to use a plasma rifle?



how on earth does this help newer players when they wont have a chance in hell? [/rant]

[Stof]

[rant]you sir, are a sausage

No insults or I'll get angry :evil:

as said before the system is fine and the game is balanced

Stop with that "game is balanced" CRAP. Selecting the wining team at random at the start of the game is even more balanced but it doesn't mean we should do it!

 

no it will create more. would you really want uber players constantly having "max experience"

Yes, considering the oposite uber players will ALSO have constantly max experience it balances out.

so you suggest that humans should not stay near the base, and always be on the attack?

Hell YES! if reasonable of course.

wana explain how that works when humans are s1, and aliens s2 or 3? base camping is needed from time to time!

Then base camp. Also, consider that stages as you know them might become meaningless in a new experience system. And also consider that a failed tyrant attack on the human base will probably give the humans quite a load of cash/experience and help them get up to date techwise faster.

right so let me get this straight? after all the idea above, you want people to never run out of credits !!!!OMG!!!!??!/??oNe!!

tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out turret dies
tyrant charges takes out node
tyrant charges takes out node
tyrant charges takes out med
tyrant charges takes out DC

It'd more along those lines :
tyrant charges, takes out 2 turrets dies
tyrant charges, takes out 2 turrets dies
tyrant charges and faces 5 chaingun humans and dies before he even makes a dent in the turrets. Humans thank him for all the feeding he did with a very expensive class

[MadMan2k]

first of all:
this above was a suggestion, meaning that it was not yet elaborated enough to be deployed.
So of course you can find plenty of problems if you just deploy it as is without further changes.
So perhaps you could aim the critisism on advantages I named which you think are false and if you find any disadvantages with my system, please think if there is an easy way to fix it or if there is already a fix in other exp based games.

examples:

If you go for building use, someone just need to sell and buy his rifle a hundred time, or hurt himself and go to the medistation to get a lot of experience

firstly not he would het the exp, but the builder and secondly excluding repeaded buying the same thing without dieing is not a big deal

games will end after 10mins

you can make reaching s3 to take more than 10mins by simply require a exponential increase of exp,

now to some more serious arguments:

tyrants will rush one to death

- if more luci/ chaingunners are avaible they will be able to do max one slash before they die and this can be easily repaired
- you can add an evolution/ wepon timer just as you have it now for builings or spawning to make death more influential

one good player will decide it all

theres already a mechanism for this: the stages. If it wont be enough you could limit the number of exp one player can contribute to the stage pool.

[MadMan2k]

I'm with you for that one but for one thing:

- base camping less attractive, since you get more exp by killing the alien without the help of an turret

I don't think we need changes to the base defenses and the way players get credits for kills made with their help. Why? Because we do need a deterent for the mindless behaviour of throwing a goon/tyrant at the turrets until it passes. Such behaviour shall of course be encouraged if it means a swift victory for the team ( ie, if it's effective ) and if not, it should be considered feeding and be penalised as such. How it works currently is fine.

good point. didnt think of it balancing itself out on s3.

[Henners]

You just dont understand the game mechanics of fighting bases do you?

As I say, once a few humans get enough experience for chainguns and lucys the match is over as the aliens have no chance. It only takes 2 or 3 humans with big weapons to lock a base down - if you have no chance of wearing those humans down to more managable weapons, you'll never be able to take the base.

Also, consider the fact that many human teams can pull ahead a large advantage (as they should) in stage 2. Under your system this would give the aliens no chance whatsoever.


One other big point. Once both sides are at stage 3 (if that would ever happen under your system, which I severely doubt as your system would lead to constant runaway wins, where as one team gets an advantage it just grows and grows) there would be no benefit to actually killing people. All pretence at any sort of reward would be out of the window - the concept of "feeding" is meaningless if everyone is at stage 3. And if not again the system would severely favour humans, as aliens mindlessly charging gives even the lowest human points as they unload their rifle into targets. As humans mindlessly charge in, only the larger aliens will stand a chance of getting the kills, and hence the lower ones would not get fed up.

Are you happy with this level of explanation as to why your suggestion is utterly stupid? I dont use an objection unless something is completely idiotic.

[Stof]

You just dont understand the game mechanics of fighting bases do you?

As I say, once a few humans get enough experience for chainguns and lucys the match is over as the aliens have no chance. It only takes 2 or 3 humans with big weapons to lock a base down - if you have no chance of wearing those humans down to more managable weapons, you'll never be able to take the base.

Isn't that a problem in the game design now anyway? When those humans are behind the turrets and well protected, it is nearly impossible to drain their cash supply down to manageable levels for aliens. And besides, Chaingun is a rather cheap weapon as it is. Chaingun + helmet + armor is available at 400 + 70 + 90 = 560 credits. Easy enouth to get and if you don't fear getting killed by long range aliens, you can even do without armor for the base defense.

Also, consider the fact that many human teams can pull ahead a large advantage (as they should) in stage 2. Under your system this would give the aliens no chance whatsoever.

You also fail your argument on the account that the item prices and availability will remain the exact same as it is currently. Shall humans keep their incredible stage 2 advantage for that new system? No of course.

One other big point. Once both sides are at stage 3 (if that would ever happen under your system, which I severely doubt as your system would lead to constant runaway wins, where as one team gets an advantage it just grows and grows)

Since highly expensive evo/equipment already gives more cash/evo points to the oposing team, any team going first for the advanced stages will cause the other team to advance faster to the next levels.

there would be no benefit to actually killing people.

Yes, that's exactly the point isn't it? In Tremulous, you only need to kill each opponent once at most! The main goal of the game is to kill spawns, and then the remaining players. In fact, it's obvious that in many games, the main turning point which decides the victor is an alien killing some important structure or humans backstabing the alien base.

All pretence at any sort of reward would be out of the window - the concept of "feeding" is meaningless if everyone is at stage 3. And if not again the system would severely favour humans, as aliens mindlessly charging gives even the lowest human points as they unload their rifle into targets. As humans mindlessly charge in, only the larger aliens will stand a chance of getting the kills, and hence the lower ones would not get fed up.

Bigger aliens will have to accomodate the lesser aliens if they want a chance of winning the game. We only need to make "stage unlocking "require the participation of more than a single rogue alien.

Are you happy with this level of explanation as to why your suggestion is utterly stupid? I dont use an objection unless something is completely idiotic.

Fear of change is a common thing in human beeings. Vanquish your fears if you want to see the pure light of goodness at the end of the road!

[Henners]

Isn't that a problem in the game design now anyway? When those humans are behind the turrets and well protected, it is nearly impossible to drain their cash supply down to manageable levels for aliens. And besides, Chaingun is a rather cheap weapon as it is. Chaingun + helmet + armor is available at 400 + 70 + 90 = 560 credits. Easy enouth to get and if you don't fear getting killed by long range aliens, you can even do without armor for the base defense.

No it isnt, the point is you must use tactics to take a base down. This suggestion would result in a runaway win every game.

You also fail your argument on the account that the item prices and availability will remain the exact same as it is currently. Shall humans keep their incredible stage 2 advantage for that new system? No of course.

So not only do you want to change the credit system, you want to completely alter the balance of the game as well? Besides, stage 2 advantage is nothing to do with credit prices of items. It is to do with helmets and pulse rifles. Nothing more.

Since highly expensive evo/equipment already gives more cash/evo points to the oposing team, any team going first for the advanced stages will cause the other team to advance faster to the next levels.

Utter rubbish. A team of battlesuits or indeed just a team of helmetted pulse riflers fighting a team of dretches under this system would not result in a team of tyrants fighting back. It would result in a lot of dead dretches very quickly, and a team of battlesuits with lucy cannons fighting a team of dretches. Hence the run-away win concept that I, and others have already pointed out.

Yes, that's exactly the point isn't it? In Tremulous, you only need to kill each opponent once at most! The main goal of the game is to kill spawns, and then the remaining players. In fact, it's obvious that in many games, the main turning point which decides the victor is an alien killing some important structure or humans backstabing the alien base.

The point is, for aliens to do this, they must wear down the human team, and credit starve out the big guns so they can get in to do the damage. A lot of your arguements are based on the misguided notion that this change would effect both teams equally - it simply wouldnt. Aliens would lose out in many ways due to the different natures of how each team must be played.

Bigger aliens will have to accomodate the lesser aliens if they want a chance of winning the game. We only need to make "stage unlocking "require the participation of more than a single rogue alien.

It doesnt matter how accomodating a tyrant is, a dretch isnt going to kill a battlesuiter with a lucy cannon (unless the human is utterly retarded). To gain points against a stage 3 enemy when you are stage one is done by picking your targets, not by charging headlong at the strongest targets. You must pick off the weaker ones. That is for aliens. For marines, new players can sit in the base and feed off the small amount of damage they do to attacking aliens as the rest of their team finishes them off. Now this is fine under the current lose your stuff when you die system, as the advantage this small difference in team play style gives is balanced out by death. But if you let the humans keep the xp they get from this it quickly becomes very unfair indeed.

Fear of change is a common thing in human beeings. Vanquish your fears if you want to see the pure light of goodness at the end of the road!

This isnt a change, this is nearly an entirely new game that is being suggested, and it is fatally flawed balance wise.

As for the main idea of it to reduce camping? Like bollocks it would. If anything it would encourage camping as humans sit in the base too frightened of feeding, but knowing they can slowly level up if they just wait for aliens to attack them. They would only venture out once they were well kitted out, by which time the aliens would already be fighting a losing battle, as there would be no way of wearing down the humans once they had good equipment.

[MadMan2k]

Utter rubbish. A team of battlesuits or indeed just a team of helmetted pulse riflers fighting a team of dretches under this system would not result in a team of tyrants fighting back. It would result in a lot of dead dretches very quickly, and a team of battlesuits with lucy cannons fighting a team of dretches. Hence the run-away win concept that I, and others have already pointed out.

you obiviously have not understood the idea, nevertheless you call me an idiot?!
A team of battlesuits would face a team of dragoons/ marauders and not dretches, since aliens would not lose ther exp either. This would even things up a bit:
- dragoons could simply suicide, since they got nothing to lose
- they get exp fast since bs > dragoon
=> if human team cant win fast they will face up agains tyrants

So not only do you want to change the credit system, you want to completely alter the balance of the game as well? Besides, stage 2 advantage is nothing to do with credit prices of items. It is to do with helmets and pulse rifles. Nothing more.

false assumption: see above.
marauders can give pulse rifle marines a tough time, and since pulse rifle > marauder, aliens would get a greater exp boost.
=> perhaps you dont have to change anything at all

It doesnt matter how accomodating a tyrant is, a dretch isnt going to kill a battlesuiter with a lucy cannon

fist this would only affect late joiners, secont this would be no change to like it is now. if you manage do do damage to a bs and a tyrant finishes it of, you can hope for 1 evo point. (or the equivalent in exp)

As for the main idea of it to reduce camping? Like bollocks it would. If anything it would encourage camping as humans sit in the base too frightened of feeding, but knowing they can slowly level up if they just wait for aliens to attack them. They would only venture out once they were well kitted out, by which time the aliens would already be fighting a losing battle, as there would be no way of wearing down the humans once they had good equipment.

oh and I thought this is exactly the situation we have now. but the exp system would allow mass dretch the turrets and since pretty everything >> dretch human would get little until no exp from that. but it would allow dragoons strike in once some turrets are down.
besides this would increase meaning of forward eggs.

[Stof]

With my proposed system ( personal XP and team XP ), it won't be possible for one alien player to be Tyrant and having the rest of the team stuck as dretch. This also helps late joiners a lot since they will start with 0 personal XP but will be able to make use of the team XP. And if all the alien team is stuck as dretch while humans have battlesuits, it's more or less the equivalent of a 0 kill s1 alien team vs a s3 human team with all humans using battlesuit+lucifer. I doubt such situation happens often and the aliens survive more than a few short seconds when that happens.

[David]

so building stuff gives me cash?
i decon the base and rebuild it where it was, now i get cash from all building use.
but you want the cash so you decon each building and rebuid them, now you get the cash.
but i want the cash so i....
see the pattern here?

[Stof]

so building stuff gives me cash?
i decon the base and rebuild it where it was, now i get cash from all building use.
but you want the cash so you decon each building and rebuid them, now you get the cash.
but i want the cash so i....
see the pattern here?

I think the OP intended to have different kind of XP like in W:ET. Buildings would at best allow you to unlock the Adv CKit and probably not in the form suggested.

[Henners]

you obiviously have not understood the idea, nevertheless you call me an idiot?!
A team of battlesuits would face a team of dragoons/ marauders and not dretches, since aliens would not lose ther exp either. This would even things up a bit:
- dragoons could simply suicide, since they got nothing to lose
- they get exp fast since bs > dragoon
=> if human team cant win fast they will face up agains tyrants

Wrong, for the god knows how many timeth in this thread, this system would create a "runaway" powergap. As soon as a team pulls ahead the other is screwed. Indeed having a "team xp" bit as well would make this effect even worse! A team of battlesuits would face a team of dretches more often than a team of dragoons and marauders, and it doesnt matter how many dretches there are, if there is a team XP system as well as personal xp, the dretches will be fighting a host of battlesuits with big weapons - who cares if they get massive bonuses for killing one, they arnt going to pull it off unless the humans are utterly incompetant, and assuming shitty players is no way to balance a game as has been pointed out on these very forums countless times.

false assumption: see above.
marauders can give pulse rifle marines a tough time, and since pulse rifle > marauder, aliens would get a greater exp boost.
=> perhaps you dont have to change anything at all

marauders vs even a small group of 2 or 3 humans with pulse rifles and helmets? I know where my money is going.... However, again it wouldnt be this. It would end up with pulse rifles vs dretches or dragoons vs unarmoured humans all the time, and then  runaway situation would develop again.

fist this would only affect late joiners, secont this would be no change to like it is now. if you manage do do damage to a bs and a tyrant finishes it of, you can hope for 1 evo point. (or the equivalent in exp)

wrong again, as i've already pointed out at the moment the key to joining late is to pick off the weaker targets. Under your system there would be no weaker targets, just waves of near unkillable enemies

oh and I thought this is exactly the situation we have now. but the exp system would allow mass dretch the turrets and since pretty everything >> dretch human would get little until no exp from that. but it would allow dragoons strike in once some turrets are down.
besides this would increase meaning of forward eggs.

Lmao, you want a swarm of dretches to attack the turrets to let the dragoon through? Thats an incredible dense idea. A) the dragoon can leap past the turrets B) the dragoon should be killing the turrets for the dretches C) Under this proposed "team xp" system you wouldnt have a swarm of dretches and one dragoon, you'd have a swarm of dragoon. Or rather you'd have a swarm of dragoons if the humans were utterly incompetant and let it get that bad.


I have completely understood your idea, it just seems i'm one of the few that can see through it and spot it gapingly obvious flaws.

There are only two outcomes from a system such as this - either  

1) complete runaway win from one of the two sides

OR with the team experience idea

2) A complete stalemate as both sides reach maximum power nearsimultaneously.

Option 1 obviously undesirable as games would be "over" within the first few minutes as soon as either team got a slight lead

Option 2 would make most of the game pointless - might as well start everyone at stage 3 and declare sudden death as soon as the game starts

[Stof]

You are pulling conclusions out of your ass with NOTHING to back them up.

Don't be so stubborn and wait until you see it in motion before flaming the idea.

[Henners]

Any words I have used that may be construed as flaming were merely to illustrate how strong my opinions were on those points.

I'm not "pulling conclusions out of my ass", i'm talking from extensive experience of the tactics involved in the game, how the game progresses and the different techniques involved in actually winning a match, rather than mindlessly attacking anything that moves. You should know my "credentials" from playing against me Stof - I really do know what i'm talking about.

As for waiting to see it in motion, unless you make a mod to do this yourself, you never will do. Timbo's no fool, and he certainly understands that game better than you do.

Tbh I'm actually kinda disappointed in you Stof - I thought you had more understanding of the game than this.

[PIE]

In the other linked thread I basically said the same thing as henners.
Gaps will emerge, strategies will become more frantic rather than strategic, and it will make it hard for people to join in a game.

Please though.. by all means.. make it!