Author Topic: Building as Human  (Read 7721 times)

duhkha

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Building as Human
« on: August 30, 2006, 05:02:20 pm »
Hi everyone.

First of all, my active Englisch sucks, so please dont flame me to death for it ;)


I play Tremulous since a week and i think im pretty good at it because i had already some expirience in FPS. So my aiming isn´t that bad and i never play Alien because i would have to vomit at that speed this little bastards running with.
The point why i write this thread is the building with Humans. I never played a builder because i thought that this job is something for expierienced players who know the map, the buildings and the enemies. But now i want to try it out and for that i wanted to get some tipps what i should do and what i really dont should do.
I know that a bad builder can kill his own team better than every tyrant and i know that a good builder can help his team better than every battlesuit wearing lucifergun freak so before i try it out i ask here to be sure that i don´t do to n00bish things ;)

Thinks like,
when im allowed to decon an armory to build it somewhere else. Or an reactor.
Whats the difference between an tesla generator and an normal turret.
How many Spawns i should build?
How i react on new envolves from the aliens?
And what im doing the rest of my time? Is a builder just a builder or only when the human team ist in defence?

Questions, questions, question :)

[db@]Megabite

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Building as Human
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 05:09:41 pm »
Look at this -> On Human Base Building

Several other newb to advanced tutorials and guides can be found at tremulous.info as well... ;)

Danny
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DarkRogue

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Building as Human
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 05:28:44 pm »
Quote
when im allowed to decon an armory to build it somewhere else. Or an reactor.


Build the new armory first then decon the old, on regular BP servers you should only ever have ONE armory maybe TWO if you think aliens will kill the original during SD. (ie. if maras have consistently jumped the d and taken out the armory during gametime before sd, it's a good bet you'll want a second armory.)

Reactor should not be moved unless you have the following:

1) Guards that can aim and defend you while you setup the new base location
2) A second builder that will either build the enw reactor after you decon, or will let you build after he/she decons.
3) You know for a fact the team is ready to move and there are no aliens waiting just outside the range of your turrets/defenses (turrets make an audible noise when powered, unpowered the silence is a dead give away)

Quote
Whats the difference between an tesla generator and an normal turret.


Teslas cannot be jumped over, do slightly more damage (at a lower rate of fire), has 4x normal knockback, are more fragile than a turret, and require a second structure to even work. Generally teslas are a support defense and should NEVER be completely converted to.

Quote
How many Spawns i should build?


On normal build point servers the bare minimum you want is two, though sometimes you may want three. On obscene player count/bp servers like SST you will likely end up building 4+. The one exception is Aliens on transit. Often humans will ravage alien base early on this map forcing grangers to do what is known as 'egg spamming', by this it means placing the OM anywhere just so the 5+ grangers can place eggs all over the map. This is typically done at S2 and makes it near impossible for humans to finish aliens off before aliens reach S3, once you have tyrants pushing humans back you'll go back to normal build structures.

Quote
How i react on new envolves from the aliens?


S1/S2 - you'll want a turret or turrets around your react/armory to keep maras and goons out of base

S3 - You'll want to focus your defense into choke points that are not easily sniped by adv goons. This is primarily to deal with tyrants. Teslas should be built to keep maras and goons from jumping over forward d and into your base. However this is still possible so you'll want to be careful.

Quote
And what im doing the rest of my time? Is a builder just a builder or only when the human team ist in defence?


As builder you'll be using Right mouse button to repair damaged structures and repalcing what aliens destroy. Similarly  you should be observing your defenses and spot checking for weaknesses, ie. if a mara can jump past your d you might want to reposition the defenses to make it less easy to do so. Or if a tyrant can charge between your teslas and into the base you might want to put them closer together.


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All in all watch some of your favourite servers builders. Watch where they build and wether it works or not. You'll eventually get an idea before hand what will let your team survive longer or end the map quickly.
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PHREAK

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Building as Human
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 07:10:12 pm »
Also, do not practice building on large servers.
This is due to the types of players on those servers.
One slight mistake in their eyes and you will get kicked and even banned.

Go to a good smaller servers (preferably a clan server) and tell them you're new but would like to give it a shot. Chances are, they will guide you thru the process without bashing you.

Enjoy
Yelling at team mates since 2006!

David

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Building as Human
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 08:09:12 pm »
also, start your own server or join an empty one and practice building different layouts etc. getting the right stuff is the right place is no good if it takes you 20 secs to line each one up. faster = better.

also, communication is very important. tell your team what you are doing, and yell if the base is attacked.

also, i like having binds to switch between ckit and a big gun. that way i can shoot attackers then switch back to ckit to rebuild.

you gain free cash for not dieing. by the end you have a lot so grab a bsuit and lucy and waste some aliens. works best if someone else with no cash is repairing stuff, so they get free cash.

and always buy a helmet. best to avoid aliens if you have no gun
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rasz_pl

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Building as Human
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2006, 12:29:12 am »
first START playing aliens, you are an useless human builder if you dont know what aliens can do (wallwalking/jumping above LAME Hydra inspired turret walls, lisk clawing reac while hanging above the base and so on)

Jaradcel

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Building as Human
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2006, 03:11:10 am »
Actually, yes I agree with Rasz (shock :P) At the very least, create your own test-server on your computer and test out aliens (or observe a few rounds in a game by spectating) so you have an idea about them.

Other things not covered by the people include:

Learn where the "best" and "second best" base spots are in a map for bases. Learn how to move there quickly and communicate where you're going (E.g. "I'm moving to the Elevator room" on karith - You should know instantly where this is, what is the fastest way to get there, and what to do on the loonnnnggg run down those loonnngg corridors *Shudders*)

Learn how long it takes to build something roughly, and also its build time decounter (the time it takes for you to "cool off" from building something) so you can quickly decide between tasks - whether to heal a half-damage turret or to just whack it and build a new one.

Understand how your base d's work *THIS IS IMPORTANT*
This is because of issues such as the fact that your d's don't shoot through each other (despite all expectations to the contrary with teslas.. damnit. :P) Understand how to block off and create better choke points without also blocking off your own allies running in from outside.

The best skill to have (and one which I don't have yet) is to be able to enter a game half-way into a bad base, pick up the building and know how to make the best of it by cramming it together better.
For instance (I love Karith. Perfect map for alllll your base building examples :P) in Karith - Your starting base has a walkway right on top. I've seen people who think building there is a good idea (It's not.) but you CAN make it "better" and "Safer" (Relatively speaking) by cramming the things in close together between the pillars there and making sure that when the inevitable goon pounces up from teh ground below, they WILL get hurt a little before they thwack the various D's there.


I should really go add to that human base thread...
TOP DRETCHING THE ENGINEER!!!! =(
And fer christsake, DON'T BUILD IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

kozak6

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Building as Human
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2006, 04:00:07 am »
At first, take note of where other builders build, and what works and what doesn't.

Build in the spots that consistently work.

Always communicate before you deconstruct something important.  If you are moving the reactor, make sure you say so, or you might be mistaken for a griefer and kicked and/or banned.

It's also important to play as an alien so you can see how things work from the other side.  Rasz does have a very good point.

duhkha

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Building as Human
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2006, 05:34:03 am »
I thank you all for you help!
I´m sure this will help me alot :)

PHREAK

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Building as Human
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2006, 08:18:56 am »
Something I forgot to mention.
Regardles how how close to OG you want to move reactor, NEVER DO SO if you're under attack. The second you kill that baby is the second all of your buddies die!

Keep that in mind.
Yelling at team mates since 2006!

Ksempac

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Building as Human
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2006, 09:42:58 am »
I definitly agree with rasz :

A good builder is at least an average alien. It's true you can learn some things by seeing the work of others humans builders. However i think you will miss the purpose of "how did it put that building here instead of here"...You can replicate the work of another builder, but if you dont understand the reasons you re gonna fail as a builder. Even if you do understand the reasons you will probably understimate the power of some aliens.

Try doing a base rush with a marauder and you will see how to place turrets. Try zapping turrets and you will see why you should separate turrets in some maps (default location Nexus comes in mind).
Try sniping the def comp and/or the turrets and you will see where are the safe place for def comp.
Try pouncing behind the def bases to rush on the reactor as an adv goon when the base is too small (Box room in Tremor comes in mind)
Try rushing a base with a tyrant, and you will know the true power of this beast and what turrets and teslas can really do about that.

If you are really too weak as an alien, you may start by creating a local server and try attacks on an empty base...but real games as an alien is a true way to learn.
I ve improved a lot as a human builder since i know how to use an advanced marauder and a tyrant (i still suck as an Adv Goon, but i do manage to snip some def comp from time to time).
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Lava Croft

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Building as Human
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2006, 05:47:11 pm »
Another, maybe obsolete advice:

Never stop experimenting with base locations.

Jaradcel

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Building as Human
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2006, 04:33:10 am »
The problem with experimenting on live servers - Most people don't accept that as a valid reason for deciding to shift a base where you want to shift it. In fact, it's usually a good way to get kicked.

If you *really* want to do that, at least make sure you've played enough on the server for server regulars to recognize that you're not a n00b and that they'll at least leave you in peace when they see the dramatically alarming "Jaradcel has DECONSTRUCTED the Overmind!" :P
TOP DRETCHING THE ENGINEER!!!! =(
And fer christsake, DON'T BUILD IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

kevlarman

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Building as Human
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2006, 05:07:11 am »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Another, maybe obsolete advice:

Never stop experimenting with base locations.
do it with /devmap first though, and look for any weaknesses strengths of that base compared to others on the same map, if it looks workable, then find a team willing to let you try it on a real server.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
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Odin

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Building as Human
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2006, 05:29:52 am »

We won that game :).

Design copyright 2006 Odin.

PHREAK

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Building as Human
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2006, 08:57:49 am »
Cute Odin.
Might wanna throw another tele in there.
Too bad you can't even come close to that with standard points.
Yelling at team mates since 2006!

Jaradcel

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Building as Human
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2006, 11:12:10 am »
WTF

*laughs* Oh dear.

Actually, I've never really understood the science of multi-armories (except for SD purposes) Is there a reason to use that 10 points to "block" with instead of spending it on a turret?
TOP DRETCHING THE ENGINEER!!!! =(
And fer christsake, DON'T BUILD IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

MtS

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Building as Human
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2006, 11:15:51 am »
Quote from: "Jaradcel"
The problem with experimenting on live servers - Most people don't accept that as a valid reason for deciding to shift a base where you want to shift it. In fact, it's usually a good way to get kicked.

If you *really* want to do that, at least make sure you've played enough on the server for server regulars to recognize that you're not a n00b and that they'll at least leave you in peace when they see the dramatically alarming "Jaradcel has DECONSTRUCTED the Overmind!" :P
You don't warn before deconstructiong OM? No wonder you get kicked.

Jaradcel

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Building as Human
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2006, 05:21:59 pm »
No no of course I do. I'm just saying that unless people know you well, even if you do warn there are many who're willing to kick because "we don't know you and even though you warned, we don't trust you being the builder"

;)
TOP DRETCHING THE ENGINEER!!!! =(
And fer christsake, DON'T BUILD IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

Odin

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Building as Human
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2006, 06:17:22 pm »
Quote from: "Jaradcel"
WTF

*laughs* Oh dear.

Actually, I've never really understood the science of multi-armories (except for SD purposes) Is there a reason to use that 10 points to "block" with instead of spending it on a turret?
Why yes. Considering the armories are taller than turrets, you can use them to block things you don't want Goons to snipe. Plus it makes it a bitch to get in and out as a tyrant, so yes, it's very SD-ready.

Lava Croft

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Building as Human
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2006, 07:31:03 pm »
Don't you people see a few Mara's can cripple that base in no time?

Stof

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Building as Human
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2006, 08:06:22 pm »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Don't you people see a few Mara's can cripple that base in no time?

Are you sure? I count 6 armories on that screen and quite a few turrets too. So sure, a few mara will have 0 problem killing 4-5 armories but it's not like it matter a lots anyway :) I doubt you could really call the resulting base "crippled"
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Juno

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Building as Human
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2006, 08:34:01 pm »
i also count 3 turrets that can point at the reactor to any mara that gets ontop

Stof

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Building as Human
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2006, 09:03:48 pm »
And consider the armory just behind the reactor which will neatly prevent any mara from hiding out of the LOS of those same turrets if it decided to attack from the ground :)
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Odin

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Building as Human
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2006, 01:19:40 am »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Don't you people see a few Mara's can cripple that base in no time?
Did you forget about skilled defenders? Not to mention, maras were the worst we had to put up with that game.