Author Topic: Human advance order?  (Read 3650 times)

Quaoar

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Human advance order?
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:42:40 am »
Now, I hear an awful lot about good teamplay, but it's always very general. While players can surely find the right weapon for the right occasion often, no one ever seems to coordinate all the players with all the right weapons for an attack/outing with, say, a squad. I notice this most often on Tremor because, for some reason, a decent human push gets the entire team up to the most often used entrance of the base, and we're all stacked there (as opposed to ATCS where you usually don't get all the humans in a row).

What I mean by advance order is: which weapons go first? This is important both for general effectiveness AND for FF.

I guess it should go from least to move accurate. In fact, I'm almost certain of it. Some weapons are incompatible with certain situations, of course, but in general, I feel like flamers and chainguns should go first, drivers last, prifles and lasguns second last, and everyone else somewhere in the middle. Painsaws I kind of left out because, with FF, you really don't want anyone shooting at whatever you're clawing at unless you're on a death run.

I should just bind "Let me go ahead of you". Or learn how to aim with ranged weapons  :turret:

I also wonder just what the right assortment of weapons would be for a squad of, say, 4 people. Because usually you'll end up stacking your weapons against one kind of enemy, and come up short dealing with others. Namely, once you get used to going after big enemies players might be shockingly ineffective against dretches all of a sudden, and not a flamer in sight to remedy that situation.

There's an equivalent situation for aliens I suppose, though it usually takes the form of "dretches get off the floor when tyrants come by."

Survivor

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Re: Human advance order?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 12:31:59 pm »
Quote from: "Quaoar"
Now, I hear an awful lot about good teamplay, but it's always very general. While players can surely find the right weapon for the right occasion often, no one ever seems to coordinate all the players with all the right weapons for an attack/outing with, say, a squad. I notice this most often on Tremor because, for some reason, a decent human push gets the entire team up to the most often used entrance of the base, and we're all stacked there (as opposed to ATCS where you usually don't get all the humans in a row).


This isn't a medieval battlefield where you neatly set up your soldiers.


Quote from: "Quaoar"

I guess it should go from least to move accurate. In fact, I'm almost certain of it. Some weapons are incompatible with certain situations, of course, but in general, I feel like flamers and chainguns should go first, drivers last, prifles and lasguns second last, and everyone else somewhere in the middle. Painsaws I kind of left out because, with FF, you really don't want anyone shooting at whatever you're clawing at unless you're on a death run.


Rowing your team results in you hitting them in the chaos of battle. You lose valuable health if an md shoots you. Same goes for the pulse whose shots are slow and he doesn't know where the front persons will be when the shots arrive. You can think of the bad effects of the other weapons.

Quote from: "Quaoar"

I also wonder just what the right assortment of weapons would be for a squad of, say, 4 people. Because usually you'll end up stacking your weapons against one kind of enemy, and come up short dealing with others. Namely, once you get used to going after big enemies players might be shockingly ineffective against dretches all of a sudden, and not a flamer in sight to remedy that situation.


Weapons suit situations, you are completely right.

This is a part of a guide on human teamwork i once wrote but never released, never found the time to finish it. This part is just about loadouts and team combinations as you asked. But remember that these are not definite answers. Tremulous is too dynamic for that.



Quote

In the following section I will refer to classes, these are combinations of equipment. The main attribute of the class is the first equipment to be mentioned the others are not necessary but the more the better. The groups are composed of the people that are in base since they are available. Sometimes there might be teams working at defence or base maintenance, they are excluded from the pool a commander may draw from.

Now the group classification:
Singleton (1): Many people are this on the public servers. Although being alone is necessary in some occasions most people do the wrong thing when they are alone. Singletons sometimes are the objective of a group; for example a squad’s objective could be getting a lumberjack to the enemy base.
There are more but the most useful from a team’s perspective are the following classes.
Naked human (rifle) (Filler) ($0)
Builder (construction kit/adv + light armour + helmet + jetpack) (Base construction) ($250)
Lumberjack assault (painsaw + battlesuit + grenade) (Escorted by group) ($700)
Lumberjack lone (painsaw + light armour + helmet + jetpack + grenade) (Sneak attack) ($550)
MD (mass driver + light armour + helmet + battery pack) (Base defence/ alien pursuit) ($610)
Flamethrower (flamethrower + light armour + helmet or flamethrower + battlesuit) (Defence) ( $610/$750)

Team (2/3): These are the most flexible and most common groups on public server usually consisting of players who know each other. They often have the same loadout but varying equipment makes them more prepared for all occasions. Here follow some good classes:
Lasgunner (lasgun + light armour + helmet + battery pack) (Alien pursuit and patrols) ($ 510)
Lasgunner agile (lasgun + light armour + helmet + jetpack) (Alien pursuit) ($ 500)
Shotgunner (shotgun + light armour + helmet ) (Base defence and patrols) ($310)
Chaingunner (chaingun + light armour + helmet or chaingun + battlesuit) (Base defence)  ($460/$700)
Pulser (pulse rifle + light armour + helmet + battery pack + grenade) (Defence/offence) ($860)
Luci (Lucifer cannon + light armour + helmet + battery pack + grenade) (Base offence) ( $1060)

Squad (4/5/6): These are a menace to alien existence, they can force their way through most alien teams if the squad works well together and are excellent at base destruction . They have the same classes as the team but simply have more numbers and thus power on the battlefield, they can have several class combinations.For example a five man squad can consist of two chaingunners against large aliens, two pulsers as versatile squadmates and a lasgunner for pursuing the badly hurt aliens and finishing them off. Squads should not be too big, they might be even more powerful but there can be only so many people out of the base before it is weakened.

(Base construction): Constructs and repairs structures while upgrading bases as the team levels up. At s3 he will often change between a defensive role and the builder role. There might be two involved when moving bases where one decons the old base as the other one builds the new base.
(Filler): Unable to be really useful to a group, will usually be employed in base defence to get credits.
(Patrols): These are good for going out of base defence range in the start of the game to take out small aliens.
(Defence):  Good for defending bases and  good at taking out large aliens even out of base, mostly inaccurate or short range.
(Offence): Good for assaulting the enemy base and large aliens, mostly accurate and long range.
(Pursuit): These deal good instant damage at long range and are thus good for chasing aliens.
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Quaoar

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Re: Human advance order?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 02:21:43 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"


This isn't a medieval battlefield where you neatly set up your soldiers.


Sure, but when you are advancing towards the alien base on almost any map, especially the bigger ones, there are probably certain people you want up front first. And actually I suppose pulse rifle is a better short range weapon when dealing with other players as opposed to structures, since it is frighteningly straight but slow. When I say order I don't really mean lining up ranger file one by one, just that... well, mostly my problem is when chaingunner elect to blow off half of my health because they're afraid to go out front, or, even if FF is off, at the very least push me forward/not let me retreat so I can be easy goon fodder. I suppose that's just one complaint, since that never really happens with flamers (they know they're short range). I still think that an accurate md, if he's going to advance out of the base, should be in the rear (presuming the unlikely situation that he can't be reached via any other corridor by the enemy). Then again, most of the md guys I've ever seen were either pretty amazing rambos or just sniped and chased.

Survivor

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Human advance order?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 02:45:48 pm »
The humans almost exclusively have long range weapons. No matter who or what you put in front the risk is always there of hitting your teammate. Especially in large groups. The trick is to fight on the territory that gives you the advantage. Meaning you have the room to spread out your teammates so that they can all fire at once while not hitting each other, while you want the aliens to be bunched up.
You do not necessarily have to keep on going without stopping. It's actually insane to do that. Just lure them into an ambush, not walk into theirs. They want you to shoot each other.
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Jaradcel

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Human advance order?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 03:12:36 pm »
I've had the luck of playing on some servers where good players banded together to form pairs and then squads (MUCH MUCH LOVE!!!) and I can tell you straight off that this not only increases survivability, but makes the game a heck of a lot more fun to play IMO (but hey, I like big huge gang bang fights so... eh. :P)


Anyway... personal faves for pairs and team loadouts include

On a confirmed base assault:

A sawer (saw + la + helmet + nade)
A mid-rng (pulse/las + la + helmet + nade)

On scouting runs

Two mid-rng'ers (pulse/las + la + helmet + jetpack AND chain/shot + la + helmet + nade)
OR
One mid-rng and one 'eavy (pulse setup + "chainsuit" (chain gun + bsuit))

For bigger teams, just add more of each, although you usually only want one sawer.
An optimal (to me) squad attack would include something like
2 sawers
3-4 mid-rng's (2 of which may be in bsuits)
3-4 'eavy's. (Chainsuits and lucisuits)


As to what order to have them go, sawers should stay in the back since you want them to survive to the base to make short work of it. Resist the urge to run in and saw. Bigger peeps in front so they don't get ganked by a sudden hiding pouncin' goon or something



Good clans will prob already have the preferred order of attack and all figured out, so you could try asking them too. :)
TOP DRETCHING THE ENGINEER!!!! =(
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Rippy

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Human advance order?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 01:23:42 am »
Well, it's a matter of common sense. If I've got a bsuit + any weapon, or a flamer or chaingun, I sprint up ahead because I do my damage up close. Likewise, I hang back with an MD. It's just a matter of taking your weapon, deciding at what range it's effective, and going there. If everyone did that, there'd be no need to try to coordinate that.

And besides, this isn't a realistic game like CS where tactics are important. It's mostly run-and-gun here, there simply isn't time for devising attack formations.
remulous username: [GEC]MassiveDamage

Bajsefar

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Re: Human advance order?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 02:19:33 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"

This isn't a medieval battlefield where you neatly set up your soldiers.


but i think it would be quite effective for, say 4 humans, to neatly stand on a line, and shoot uninterruptedly at those huge aliens as they are advancing, neatly cutting away their hp in no time, instead of all that running around, obscuring other's line of fire, and therefore a very ineffective damage rate.

sure, this would leave a goon or tyrant low chances at getting close at all..

Survivor

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Human advance order?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 04:32:23 pm »
Yes, lets assume a 1 corridor map, where aliens have no other way to get around, can only walk in one direction which is toward the incoming human weaponfire, forget about the pounce and the fact that it isn't only the big aliens that can hurt you.
They would never wait for you to come round corners like they do now. There would be no marauders that are hard to hit, no dretches that will wallwalk and confuse you. Lets assume they don't notice those big blue dots, all lined up and popping up at the same time and not moving. Surely that is not a human ambush is it. Surely they don't have that experience from the countless other humans they encountered which were even supported by a wall of turrets while basecamping and somehow still lost. Surely your opponents are mindless drones which do exactly as you expect them to.
Yes, that sums all the assumptions up about right.
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Rippy

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Human advance order?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2006, 01:38:05 am »
I'm afraid there's only one solution: Tremulous RTS. :D
remulous username: [GEC]MassiveDamage

holyknight

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Human advance order?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2006, 02:03:59 am »
Quote from: "Rippy"
I'm afraid there's only one solution: Tremulous RTS. :D

it'd be like starcraft except there is no protoss and alien building will be more like protoss style (put eggs everywhere) and humans will be zerg style (can make buildings near power source)
:D starcraft is awesome :D