Author Topic: Labyrinth  (Read 27663 times)

Warrior

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Labyrinth
« on: October 16, 2006, 08:08:03 pm »
Hi,

I'm posting here my first map (Labyrinth). I started it to learn how to make maps, then was building new places and the map is now what you can download here.

The actual version is Build 9 that I toggle to beta stage, as the previous builds were alphas.

I will keep reading this topic for good suggestions that I can implement, like how to better balance the map and how to use new resources. [If someone can help me with liquid lava, I can use that, because I tried using shaders and got only weird solid blocks]. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

I'm sure I can't compare my map forms with some complex maps like Arachnid2, but I think simple and clean things are good too.

For further information you can read the readme.txt

Thanks,
Warrior.

Taiyo.uk

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Labyrinth
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 09:02:13 pm »
:egg:  :egg: :egg: Eggspammer's paradise  :egg:  :egg:  :egg:

I'll try it out though, looks fun  :wink:

DarkRogue

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Labyrinth
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 09:40:47 pm »
I will refrain from flaming you to hell and back for releasing a test map and direct you towards:

http://bubba.planetquake.gamespy.com/liquid1.html

for instructions on how to do liquids.

Now excuse me I have to go bleach my brain to rid it of the sight of this 'map'.
n game name: Xiane

Warrior

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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 10:14:44 pm »
Thank you for the link... but not for the compliments.
If people hate my map, simply don't post. I don't need being blamed: all beta/alpha maps are testing ones. The number of answers will prove the map appreciation, not the blames.

stalefries

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Labyrinth
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 10:21:35 pm »
Ignore Xiane, he never has anything good to say about these maps.
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holyknight

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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2006, 11:53:43 pm »
the map is very nice, but VERY confusing.
I like that Egyption Eyes on the human base :D
And I never saw any liquid, where is it?

Warrior

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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2006, 12:23:43 am »
Quote
And I never saw any liquid, where is it?
From the alien egg, go to the higher entrance (tunnel) using the platforms.

Quote
but VERY confusing.
That's the idea. I'm proud of know it's really confusing :wink:.

To clarify my problem with liquids: GtkRadiant doesn't show many shaders that make liquids; others are shown, like the water I used; and if I manually specify some shader in the Surface Inspector (ex.: "gloom2/reservoir_water_s") that is in the respective gloom2.shader file, but not shown at the Gtk texture explorer, after compile I got a solid block even if the shader says "nonsolid".

holyknight

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Labyrinth
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2006, 01:11:23 am »
you know what you should make?
AN ACTUAL MAZE!
like... that Minatour's Maze or whatever it's called kind of maze, that'd be cool

DarkRogue

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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2006, 03:22:57 am »
Quote from: "stalefries"
Ignore Xiane, he never has anything good to say about these maps.


If there was something good to say I'd say it. However since there's not I don't feel like sugar coating things. Much like highrise this map should never have seen webspace.

Any mapper that expects compliments for releasing a test map of him practicing random techniques and 'cool features' should be tied in a sack, beat against a brick wall and thrown into the river as a mercy killing.
n game name: Xiane

Warrior

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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2006, 04:22:21 am »
Quote
tied in a sack, beat against a brick wall and thrown into the river as a mercy killing
People who does not help too. People with no reason to say bad things too. People that think are the best too.
The map is mine if you don't like it's your problem. Even if no one like it I will use it alone. I don't need help if no one want help. I don't ask each one help, help me who want to.

Quote
random techniques and 'cool features'
Saying that you are blaming all maps, because them all use those techniques and features.

Do you have your own map at least? Explain only one reason why you hate, hate, hate my map. Without specific suggestions it can't be bettered and, yes, it is and will stay at the web.

DarkRogue

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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 06:44:22 pm »
Lets see from Q2gloom:

Infested Forts
Crisis at Ice Station 8 (Sucks hardcore)
Ice Station 8: Special Edition
Helped with Bong
and a few others that didn't get released due to mapping site collecting dust

From Quake 3 Art of War

2 maps long forgotten as the mod died :)

Tremulous:

gloom3t
gloom_b1
Jupiter Station (Currently working on)

I've also made maps for HAlf life, Unreal tournament 2k4, and Doom2

Now what bothers me about your map:

1) It's a self professed test map.

2) There's no theme other than test. You didn't bother to even choose a definite texture choice which is cohesive. I count brick, egyptian, tech and organic. USed right they can be made to mesh. You just slapped textures on. The exception being human base which shows more effort than the rest of the map combined.

3) The water area is horrendous. The outside/lava area is equally horrendous with env brushes touching the ground and no sense of architecture other than you slapping a box around the thing.

4) There is no sense of flow, you accomplished a huge maze. Congrats. So aliens will never lose since it'll be impossible to find all the eggs. This affects gameplay as in there's no directions that indicate you're getting close to human base or alien base. Similarly other than the ramp rooms there's no multi level fighting.

5) Nothing wrong with simple maps but there is something to be said for eye candy, blank flat hallways with no sense of detail other than they're dark with spotlights bored the fucking shit out of me. I can only imagine how often humans will sit at one end and shoot at aliens at the other as there's ZERO cover.

6) The halls are pitch black except for sourceless spotlights. The ramp rooms are full bright. Human base is full bright. The 'outside' area is full bright. The water area is full bright. At this point I needed to bleach my brain so I never wasted my time to check and see if you made alien base full bright or picth black, either way is horrendous.

Shall I continue with legitimate complaints against a fucking test map? Dude every professional map maker in the gaming industry and 99% of the non professional ones will say the same thing. NEVER RELEASE YOUR TEST MAPS. No matter how proud you are of your 'accomplishment', no matter how fun it is to run around inside this test it will always lack a few things:

First and most importantly, a sense of gameplay. When testing map features you are not taking into account the nuances of a mod/gametype.

Secondly is playability, which I must say yours is, on an empty server every area gave me 150 fps easy. Then again considering it's just rooms connected by hallways, there's nothing complex to really hurt frame rates.

third, is the visuals. Most test maps, rooms etc are slapped on textures (usually bland flat colors). There's no sense of style interest or even effort in it. Why? Because it's a test map, its something general mappers would not release to the public who tend to give a very large damn about how it looks.

Last is over course eye candy. Architecture. Special effects. A sense that you put more effort into this map than hollowing out brushes against each other. Yeah not every mapper will get uber creative and decorate the holy hell out of the walls, floor and ceiling. But no mapper is gonna leave texture seams without covering trim. No mapper is going to leave rooms blank and empty, devoid of anything but thin ramps.

Quote
Saying that you are blaming all maps, because them all use those techniques and features.


The thing is mappers use techniques and features to enhance a map. You tested techniques and features and called it a map.

I know it sounds like the same thing but let me try to explain. When mapping most have a good idea of how they want it to look, play and feel. Most mappers do not learn a feature and instantly try to find a place for it in their map. UNLESS it enhances an existing area of their map. For example: Environment maps. If you are mapping a completely subterranean environment do you cram a room with a sky box in there somewhere?

No.  The mapper doesn't. Cause that feature doesn't enhance his or her overall map theme. Like your own outside area. There's no ryhme or reason to it and it's not even done well with associated techniques to make it even slightly usible. Really when you designed the outside area of your 'maze' were you considering the overall playability and aestic look of the area compared to the rest of the maze or were you just eager to test a working skybox?

The difference in conclusion is the purpose behind their use. In your case, you were testing out what you learned, regardless if it fit together or not. Other mappers learn a technique to enhance their existing map plan, if it does nothing to enhance the existing plan the technique/feature is NOT used.
n game name: Xiane

[db@]Megabite

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Labyrinth
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 11:33:09 pm »
I don't think Xiane actually hates the map because you created it. He just disapproves your releasing it to the public and he has a point: It is no Tremulous map in any playable shape.

His choice of words may be drastic but try to see his point. Read his actual review carefully and go on improving your skills to finally release some map that will make people feel like "wow"... because it has nice architecture, good gameplay and looks and an interesting theme / texture set. No map can really live without any of these. Oh yeah, and try to limit map gimmicks to none or just one (maximum)... they are usually funny once and get annoying fast. ;)

Danny
url=http://www.tremulous.info][/url]


Warrior

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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 12:34:32 am »
DarkRogue, many thanks for your explained opinion. You are almost right.
I uploaded a new build 10. I could make shaders work and solved my little problem...

"You just slapped textures on"

Textures are ok in my opinion.


"The water area is horrendous. The outside/lava area is equally horrendous with env brushes touching the ground and no sense of architecture other than you slapping a box around the thing."

Removed the outside area in this build until I rethink it (or I will suppress it); I'm using a new type of water now.


"So aliens will never lose since it'll be impossible to find all the eggs."

Humans will need some new tatic.


"there's no directions that indicate you're getting close to human base or alien base"

The map is called as Labyrinth.


"humans will sit at one end and shoot at aliens at the other"

All tunnels and rooms have at least two entrances... and if you think camping in a small tunnel will help... (tunnels are bad for building and camping too). In addition, if any great problem appear during a game I may use the "nobuild" shader in the tunnels.


"if you made alien base full bright or picth black"

It is in a light room with those small ramps and platforms.


"NEVER RELEASE YOUR TEST MAPS"

Battlezone is like a test in my opinion; the same for those maps: "Dark", "Highrise", "Race", the horrible "DMB01" and maybe some more. I released only to not be egoist, maybe to don't play alone and to receive suggestions. Also, I think it will not be released in famous sites like Tremulous Infobase, so it will remain quasi-unknown.


"First and most importantly, a sense of gameplay"

I added a note in the Readme about Map usage and gameplay.


The rest I must agree with you (only if I missed something).

Thanks.


P.S.: Megabite, what are "gimmicks"? Can you give me some examples?

stalefries

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Labyrinth
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 01:54:32 am »
Nevermind, I realized that Xiane is actually right. This map is no good. Seriously, walls of water?
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[db@]Megabite

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Labyrinth
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 07:04:17 pm »
Quote from: "Warrior"
P.S.: Megabite, what are "gimmicks"? Can you give me some examples?


Well, stuff that should not really be needed by a decent map such as traps, light switches, rotating stuff, elevators, cameras/monitors, ingame messages, lockable doors, teleporters.

To include one of those (like the teleporter on meep) may encourage interesting gameplay and even make the map more fun. But a map trying to live on gimmicks is usually screwed up as they get annoying fast. Just try to limit use of such things... ;)

Danny
url=http://www.tremulous.info][/url]


Warrior

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Labyrinth
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2006, 07:53:01 am »
Only to note: uploaded Build 11. Many changes, read the readme.txt

"traps, light switches, rotating stuff, elevators, cameras/monitors, ingame messages, lockable doors, teleporters."
The time Megabite wrote that I didn't have any of these [what's a "light switch"? Is it a light activated by a button? If yes, I don't have]. Now I have some motion platforms in the elevators category, but player don't depend on them to reach any places.
The map is no more ready to be be launched too early.
That's all.

Seffylight

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Labyrinth
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2006, 12:02:20 pm »
Against my better judgement, I decided that (after 11 releases) you might have a possible working map here. So, for the first time, I just downloaded and ran through Labyrinth.

I could go on from this point, but it'd be ridiculous to do so. This map has absolutely no actual gameplay possibility -- for both now and for what ever future releases you have planned. The halls are all extremely narrow, there is absolutely no decoration, the texturing is atrocious, the water shader you used is horrid when used the way that you did, the ramps in that one room are ugly and make no sense, everything else is entirely out of place.

Don't try to use the typical saving graces of "this is my first map", "it's a Labyrinth, so it has to be this way", or the dreaded "it's a beta". None of those excuses can possibly explain this atrocity.

Take what you've learned, stop publicly releasing this map, and go make an actual one.
Stop it. Seriously.

Survivor

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Labyrinth
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2006, 03:05:49 pm »
I get so depressed by what people dare call betas these days :(
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

Warrior

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Labyrinth
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2006, 10:26:43 pm »
Thanks to all bad suggestions that ALL of you give. No more answers for none of you. Thanks again for nothing.
PS. 1: I'm sure my map is better than many maps used in many servers and present on many server's ftp, in despite of your bad opinion.
PS. 2: I will no more answer this forum threat. Need a better place to get help.
PS. 3: my map is not alpha nor beta, it's simply a build number without release date plan.

Thorn

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Labyrinth
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 11:45:01 pm »
Just take the advice of people.

If i stomped off like that everytime surv told me this was crap or that was crap. I'd have about 10thounsand craps every condump. Try listening to what people say. Try and take it as advise on how to get better. And dont release your first maps.

DIGI_Byte

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Labyrinth
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2006, 12:34:48 am »
Quote from: "Warrior"
Thanks to all bad suggestions that ALL of you give. No more answers for none of you. Thanks again for nothing.
PS. 1: I'm sure my map is better than many maps used in many servers and present on many server's ftp, in despite of your bad opinion.
PS. 2: I will no more answer this forum threat. Need a better place to get help.
PS. 3: my map is not alpha nor beta, it's simply a build number without release date plan.


Man Grow up, listen to your self if you want priase go look in a mirror and tell your self your pretty, watch tellie-tubbies and go fuck your granma, seriously good advice from people are normally flames.

use the flames to your advantage and listen to what they have to say. im not flaming on your map i just read your comments.

grow up, this is the net. good advice come in the word of flames.

poto killer

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Labyrinth
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2006, 04:56:28 am »
hey dude its ok theys are cyber bullies, you need to find good help pm me and illl help, ive created many maps and i can help you finish yours



P.S.AM I THE ONLY NICE GUY IN THE FORRUM PAGE HERE???!!!??? :evil:
img]http://wilhelmrahn.googlepages.com/tyrant-for-life.png[/img]

holyknight

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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2006, 05:02:34 am »
I am, except I don't really say anything because I don't want to get involved in this bullyingness... :-?  :oops:
yeah, what he said. If they flaming is unreasonable, ignore them, and if they ARE reasonable, use them wisely
I had some of those "evil" flamings at me long time ago when I was into spriting (you don't know it, then you don't really need to know [I bet it's everyone who don't know what spriting is]) but whenever someone flamed me, I ignored them or ask them to be more specific if their reasons are unreasonable.

Ksempac

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Labyrinth
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2006, 05:20:27 am »
Flaming ? There isn t any flaming in this topic. Only people who disagree with you.
Flaming is about trying to anger people without any argument/no intention of adding something useful to the discussion. There is no such thing here. Even the first post of DarkRogue (which i admit was quite harsh) had a link to a tutorial about how to make liquids...And you just ignored this advice.

On this topic 2 of the best known mappers of Tremulous (DarkRogue and Megabite) EXPLAINED to you (not flamed you) why your map is poorly done. Others experienced players (Survivor, Thorn..) are telling you the map is not good because there cant be a good game of Tremulous in it.
On the other hand the only guys who said nice things to you are people who seldom post or who joined the forum recently so probably have less experience about it. If everybody which has experience in the subject tells you the map isn t good, you should understand that they must be right.

Instead of getting angry and keep releasing build you should follow their advice : Stop releasing builds for this map which is going no where and start a new one made for a good gameplay (nice base locations, not too many places to hide eggs, a map easy to remember, or at least where they are signs to help you find your way).

Everybody who starts will have some troubles at the beginning and will need to create some test maps to gain some skills. Experienced mappers will be happy to give you some advice about it. However, a test map is a map for TEST. You shouldn t expect people to play on it.
url=http://tremulous.net][/url]

Somethief

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Labyrinth
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2006, 05:33:22 am »
Please add version numbers to the .pk3 file, some ppl might want to know which version they are having installed
url=http://fi.tremulous.net/]Tremulous Suomi[/url]
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DIGI_Byte

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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2006, 06:41:58 am »
Quote from: "Ksempac"
Flaming ? There isn t any flaming in this topic. Only people who disagree with you.
Flaming is about trying to anger people without any argument/no intention of adding something useful to the discussion. There is no such thing here. Even the first post of DarkRogue (which i admit was quite harsh) had a link to a tutorial about how to make liquids...And you just ignored this advice.

On this topic 2 of the best known mappers of Tremulous (DarkRogue and Megabite) EXPLAINED to you (not flamed you) why your map is poorly done. Others experienced players (Survivor, Thorn..) are telling you the map is not good because there cant be a good game of Tremulous in it.
On the other hand the only guys who said nice things to you are people who seldom post or who joined the forum recently so probably have less experience about it. If everybody which has experience in the subject tells you the map isn t good, you should understand that they must be right.

Instead of getting angry and keep releasing build you should follow their advice : Stop releasing builds for this map which is going no where and start a new one made for a good gameplay (nice base locations, not too many places to hide eggs, a map easy to remember, or at least where they are signs to help you find your way).

Everybody who starts will have some troubles at the beginning and will need to create some test maps to gain some skills. Experienced mappers will be happy to give you some advice about it. However, a test map is a map for TEST. You shouldn t expect people to play on it.


The perfect advice.

Also take advice from someone who was in your position listen to flamers and take in all advice and map until your tired and when your maps look profesional release them as beta 1 and hear what every one has to say.

Warrior

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Labyrinth
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2006, 11:37:06 pm »
Well... one more answer...

"are telling you the map is not good because there cant be a good game of Tremulous in it."
More than 30 players it may really get flooded, but small games I think it support.

Clarification: Megabite, holyknight and poto killer were very nice; real thanks to them. Also, I agree with many DarkRogue points even some I don't want implement... lol ... The link he past was not useful as I already known how to do that, my problem was with the shaderlist.txt that I learned how to use after searching the forums [however I gave thanks for the link in my next post].

But I can't tolerate people that only post to say "I get so depressed by what people dare call betas these days". He must only be trying to increase his number of posts.

"Stop releasing builds for this map which is going no where and start a new one made for a good gameplay"
I'll release what I want... also, the map is only on my site, and I think in no more places.

"too many places to hide eggs"
This argument and the "eggspammer paradise" are being rejected, because: 1- All maps (or at least the big ones) can be used for that tactic; 2- Humans can (in S2) use the tactic to spread turrets and repeaters; 3- All tunnels will have good circulation so no eggs will be lost; 4- Players can think new tactics...

"a map easy to remember"
How much you play, you'll getting familiarized.

"they are signs to help you find your way"
Team Chats shows player's nearest location name.

"Please add version numbers to the .pk3 file, some ppl might want to know which version they are having installed"
I will do it. Thanks.

"look profesional"
Do you want more detail shapes like round forms, more walls columns and arcs, or something like these? I don't think these are necessary; they are superfluous and are only details. Or it's about rooms sizes? This can be made in a new map, so I don't lose the great time used with the actual ones.

To comments about "do what more experienced says": many artists in real world tried to innovate and were toasted by critics; ex.: Pablo Picasso [I don't like his paintings, but they got really valorized]. Although I'm not an artist, I don't like using the same old ideas that more than 1 billion people use every time.

"are telling you the map is not good because there cant be a good game of Tremulous in it"
Do they tried with how many players on it?
Maybe novice players will like the map instead... so it could be an attractive to Tremulous.

As I don't see any more valuable posts to comment about, I'll finish with that:

"this is the net. good advice come in the word of flames."

Answer: "YOU ARE WHAT YOU WRITE"

Thorn

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Labyrinth
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2006, 11:46:07 pm »
Quote from: "Warrior"

Answer: "YOU ARE WHAT YOU WRITE"


So your a biased idiot in real  life aswell?

Warrior

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Labyrinth
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2006, 11:59:51 pm »
Like you, Mr. Thorn.

Maltagearion

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Labyrinth
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2006, 02:07:56 am »
Quote from: "Warrior"
Like you, Mr. Thorn.

HAHA OH MAN... ICEBURN