Author Topic: A closer look at "Camping" (Read 18863 times)

Ksempac · « **Reply #30 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:05:33 pm »

Stof is right..Even in games when humans had the upper hand, i never saw them being able to put the alien base under siege as much as the alien can do it with a human base when they have the upper hand (i mean on a 16-players server which is the norm according to Timbo)

Thats just not possible, you run out of ammo way too fast. Moreover, aliens dont even need to have evolution points to make you waste your ammo. Just hop around, making it as if you were trying to get them, and they will have to protect themselves..Since blaster isn t an option with its low fire rate they will use their primary weapon. Do this once or twice and every human will have to leave in order to reload
This is why there is always one or 2 grangers that manage to escape while its almost impossible for a human builder to do so.

temple · « **Reply #31 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:24:29 pm »

The problem is there is no 3rd target to redirect camping. Its pure Alien vs Human, so one side is going to push the other indefinitely. But I'm not going to suggest anything like resource collecting or a 3rd faction. Camping is just a by product of having the teams solely focused on killing the other teams.

I've been an fan of making the game about forward bases. The Overmind or Reactor could in theory only sustain so many structures but builders can build multiple OMs or reactors. The control radius of OMs or reactors should not be able to overlap, so each side has to expand. There could also be a limit on how many OMs or reactors each side could build, like 3. That would reduce the amount of camping outside each others' bases and promote more skirmish and conquest fighting. Search and destroy is more fun that rush and camp.

Otherwise, humans just need to learn how to shoot better. Its the greatest feeling to be human and playing with Aliens that can't get headshots. There is no true reason why a large number of humans need to protect their base. Human bases are better at defending themselves than alien bases.

Stof · « **Reply #32 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:22:23 pm »

Quote from: "temple"

The problem is there is no 3rd target to redirect camping. Its pure Alien vs Human, so one side is going to push the other indefinitely. But I'm not going to suggest anything like resource collecting or a 3rd faction. Camping is just a by product of having the teams solely focused on killing the other teams.

Unless the Alien team as a mission that cannot be done as a byproduct of placing a siege around the human base, I doubt having a 3rd objective will be of much effect. I like to think that humans camp not because they like it and not because they all want to defend the base but because they have no other choice : They camp because that's probably the best thing to do in the current situation.

Survivor · « **Reply #33 on:** November 08, 2006, 04:02:37 pm »

Quote from: "Ksempac"

Stof is right..Even in games when humans had the upper hand, i never saw them being able to put the alien base under siege as much as the alien can do it with a human base when they have the upper hand (i mean on a 16-players server which is the norm according to Timbo)

Thats just not possible, you run out of ammo way too fast. Moreover, aliens dont even need to have evolution points to make you waste your ammo. Just hop around, making it as if you were trying to get them, and they will have to protect themselves..Since blaster isn t an option with its low fire rate they will use their primary weapon. Do this once or twice and every human will have to leave in order to reload
This is why there is always one or 2 grangers that manage to escape while its almost impossible for a human builder to do so.

You know why? Aliens have to come out to do damage, they can't hide behind their defenses because they have absolutely no true ranged weapons in that state. And the goal has never been to lay siege. The goal is to kill the eggs and the grangers. You don't need to lay siege for that.

Stof · « **Reply #34 on:** November 08, 2006, 04:24:08 pm »

Quote from: "Survivor"

You know why? Aliens have to come out to do damage, they can't hide behind their defenses because they have absolutely no true ranged weapons in that state. And the goal has never been to lay siege. The goal is to kill the eggs and the grangers. You don't need to lay siege for that.

Well, yes they can wait behind defenses. They can wait for humans to be softened up a little by acid tubes, trapped by trappers or simply slowed down to a crawl by acid tubes. It makes them much easier to kill.

But it's true that the best way for aliens to defend their base is to kill humans on the way, or at least to soften them up. Or a Tyrant camping in the base works great too.

temple · « **Reply #35 on:** November 09, 2006, 03:24:09 am »

Quote from: "Stof"

Unless the Alien team as a mission that cannot be done as a byproduct of placing a siege around the human base, I doubt having a 3rd objective will be of much effect. I like to think that humans camp not because they like it and not because they all want to defend the base but because they have no other choice : They camp because that's probably the best thing to do in the current situation.

The only time you need to be in the base is defend builders. Its no different than Alien defense.

Humans camp because their defenses are powerful enough to protect them.

|Nex|TrEmMa · « **Reply #36 on:** November 09, 2006, 07:56:19 am »

I have not read this thread.

Camping happens because people wait until SD (or s3). A good amount of the time, teams that waited til SD (or s3) to attack could've ended it alot earlier.
However, the difference between camping and being pinned in your base needs to be made.
I have seen and experienced both.
S1 humans who won't last 3 seconds against the 3-4 tyrants waiting for dinner are not camping, they are pinned.
S3 humans who are sitting in their base because they got a lot of credits that way and are winning, against s2 or lower aliens, are camping.
S3 aliens in their base are camping.
S2 humans against non-s3 aliens are generally camping.
Aliens that don't have humans sitting right outside their base, are camping.
People not attacking when the opponents are without their main structure are camping.
Now most of this won't apply if you're creditbroke or up against a really really good team.

Basically if your survival rate if you were to leave your base is over 50%, then you're camping. That number can be debated, but thats generally it.

Stof · « **Reply #37 on:** November 09, 2006, 09:02:14 am »

Quote from: "temple"

The only time you need to be in the base is defend builders. Its no different than Alien defense.

Humans camp because their defenses are powerful enough to protect them.

Humans camp in their base to avoid feeding and losing money against opponents stronger than them. When that happens, I like them there because it means fewer goons and tyrants between me and the alien base.

It probably means they won't get much better though. But what effect did you expect the death cry of thousands of players howling to the winds "Stop feeding or I'll get you kicked!" would have on the play style of the newbies?

holyknight · « **Reply #38 on:** November 09, 2006, 11:26:32 pm »

Game is for fun, let people have fun instead of camping
Camping is soooo boring =/
so what's better, going down without having fun, or going down with fun?
Going down without killing any aliens, or going down with some aliens
And yes, I agree with you that if a person keeps dying, he shouldn't go out, but that doesn't mean to EVERYONE. I can sometimes kill a goon outside the base and when I go out, people are like "DON'T GO OUTSIDE!"
And when I kill the goon, they don't say anything.
I'm not saying I'm a good player, but I'm just saying that just because one person goes out and feed, the others shouldn't be camping.

jal · « **Reply #39 on:** November 13, 2006, 04:36:13 pm »

The gameplay design wants humans to camp. Reasons for this are as clear as water:

- Human's weapons can kill from long distances while alien weapons can't. So, aliens must go into humans to get the kill.
- Humans heal inside their base. Aliens heal everywhere. So humans are forced to return to base each short time, while aliens can just sit around enemy's base.
- Humans run out of ammo, and reload it at their base. Aliens don't run out of ammo. Again, they need to get base constantly. Not only that, if we consider healing and ammo issues together, it makes the conclusion that human team is much stronger when being inside their base, while the strentgh won by the alien team when staying at base is not relevant.
- Aliens can evolve (almost) everywhere. Humans must go base to trade.
- Aliens can plant eggs almost everywhere, spawn and be ready to attack. Human spawns must be at base. They could put a repeater, yes, but the just spawned guy won't be able of buying the weapons he needs to survive.

In short. The design makes the aliens the attackers and the human the defenders. Even if the human team gets stronger with the accumulated credits there's a strong base dependency.

EDIT: Please, notice that I'm never saying that this is a design flaw, nor something I'd like to see changed. I just say that blaming human team for camping is not fair. Cause that's what they are supposed to do with the resources they are given.

PHREAK · « **Reply #40 on:** November 13, 2006, 05:31:42 pm »

I partially agree with Jal.
As most know, I don't camp...ever.
I just can't do it.
But lets look at this.
While alien bases arent nearly as deadly as human bases can be, aliens have the oportunity to spread and eggspam.
So even when the human team teams up and goes on a mission to kill the alien base, there is always a fulltime granger making sure that aliens don't run out of eggs and a temp OM.

Here's what happened yesterday.
Equally good teams on both sides.
Hummies rush the second teh game starts while a builder stays behind and makes a good base.
We kill OM half a dozen times and about 20 eggs.
Feeding on aliens in the meanwhile, we get s2.
So it's pulse/jet/nade time.
We keep doing the rush and chase.
Allong come Adv maras so we know we have to hurry.
So we go for grangers/eggs/OM only.
2 mins later tyrants rush our base and whoop ass.
GG
A similar scenario CAN NOT happen to humans.
Had we all sat base, we would have had a chance to win and defend our base.
Now heres the thing. That game was one of the more fun games in a while, even with the loss.
So all skill equal, aliens are more powerfull on a decent map the second they hit S3. Regardles how agressive the humans play.

Lava Croft · « **Reply #41 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:08:28 pm »

Quote from: "PHREAK"

So all skill equal, aliens are more powerfull on a decent map the second they hit S3. Regardles how agressive the humans play.

Wrong, the Humans are the strongest team in Tremulous. Teamplaying Humans are no match for the Aliens, period.

And on this whole camping thing; the only reason the Humans are succesfull at camping, is because the Aliens lack the common sense to realize that if you don't attack the camping Humans, there is nothing for them to camp for.
If the Humans start camping, which they mostly do, just have the Alien team sit around their Overmind for 5 minutes, and the Humans are bound to show up at your base.

PHREAK · « **Reply #42 on:** November 14, 2006, 01:21:54 am »

Lava,
teamplaying hummies have a sure chance on winning on 2 maps only;
Tremor and ATCS.

Any other map (uncreation excluded for obvious reasons) humans chances decrease massivly with a full-time granger.
I have no problems taking down 3 decent bsuit/chain/lucy hummies or 2 pros with a tyrant on a FF server with low ping.

Give me a granger thats going to take care of base and not build like he's a human and the game is ours.

Note that I'm only a decent tyrant....not a great one.

So I'm not saying thats impossible to win as human, but it certanly requres a bit more then teamplaying humans.

stalefries · « **Reply #43 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:27:46 am »

The absolute best human game have ever seen was on Nexus. The humans on that server that day were playing very well together. At S3, they did a coordinated charge against the base of a decent alien team (IE, a team that would have won eventually in SD). They attacked from both entrances at the same time, completely overwhelming the alien defenders. No aliens survived, not even your magical granger.

InfernoX347 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:31:54 am »

It seems once the aliens get S3, it's a long road to victory( tyrants kick too much arse)

Lava Croft · « **Reply #45 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:39:14 am »

PHREAK, you obviously have never played Tremulous with a good Human team, because I can think of no other reason why you would ventilate such nonsense. No, and I repeat, No Alien team can ever win over properly teamplaying Humans, simply because Humans can concentrate all their fire on one Alien, giving a 400HP Tyrant a lifespan of about 3 seconds. Not only that, the Humans have the advantage that they can sit relatively safe behind their defenses for a while. Aliens aren't that good at concentrating fire (or slashes, if you will), and they certainly don't have any bases in which they can comfortably sit, and a few Grangers ain't gonna do a terrible lot about that, they can only make the Alien failure come a bit later. Also, at the end of the betatesting stages of Tremulous, it became quite apparent that the Humans were the most powerful team, not the Aliens. And since I still think the best Tremulous players are the ones in the betas, I rather go by what I saw there, and not by what I see in the current Tremulous games, where 80% of the players is comprised of brainless cannon- or clawfodder.

|Nex|TrEmMa · « **Reply #46 on:** November 14, 2006, 05:18:18 am »

Was it common for most, if not all, beta testers to utilize ground headshotting?
Believe me when I say this makes a difference. Humans just get wiped out by very skilled dretches at s1, and this advantage carries on through til humans get s2. If aliens can get close to or have s3 before humans get s2, it is hard to pull off a human victory (at s2) no matter how well the team works together. The only real chance s2 humans have to win (at s2) against s3 aliens is if aliens were to run out of evos. Sure if humans have chainsuits and lucies they can overpower tyrants with numbers, but if they never make it to that stage because aliens put it away before they get there, then humans can't be "overpowered."

IJsje · « **Reply #47 on:** November 14, 2006, 09:56:53 am »

You do realize that a dretch dies from 5 bullets. That means you need an accuracy of less than 20% to kill the dretch in one clip, and humans can move too. They don't need to stand still while shooting (like most humans think) making getting a headshot even harder.

Very skilled humans kill very skilled dretches at s1.

Btw PHREAK, I don't have any trouble machinegunning down a decent tyrant. Just because you killed two bsuits and labelled them pro doesn't mean anything.

PHREAK · « **Reply #48 on:** November 14, 2006, 10:17:50 am »

Quote from: "IJsje"

Btw PHREAK, I don't have any trouble machinegunning down a decent tyrant. Just because you killed two bsuits and labelled them pro doesn't mean anything.

LOL...
You're just cute.
If you manage to machinegun me in a 1v1 I'll give you $100.
I'll even let you wear a Bsuit.
Hell, grab a chain-gun just to make it interesting.
Bring a friend as well while we are at it.
If you live, I swear I'll pay up.

Machinegunning simply means that someone did the damage and you cought the tyrant running. A moron tyrant that is.
IMO, any tyrant running is a dead tyrant....but thats off topic now.
So while you might have gotten the running tyrant with a machine gun while sitting on the turret, chances are he wasn't full health and someone got paid for you killing him.

And while you are right about a dretch needing 5 hits out of the clip, a good dretch will not even let you shoot half of that clip before he kills you.
98 dmg to the head and a granger spit can finish you off.

Stof · « **Reply #49 on:** November 14, 2006, 10:24:42 am »

It takes nearly 3 full clips with 100% accuracy to machine gun a tyrant. And don't wait too much between shots because a Tyrant regens 14 HP/s if you leave him alone for too long, it doesn't take much for him to regen enouth health that you have to put another full clip into him.

jal · « **Reply #50 on:** November 14, 2006, 10:30:30 am »

TBH, I think human team camping has no relation with what team is stronger. It's just about the resources each team is given. Using a football comparison, aliens would be Barcelona while humans would be Chelsea. One has the best resources to play offensive while the other has the best resources to play defensive. This doesn't make one weaker than the other.

IJsje · « **Reply #51 on:** November 14, 2006, 10:37:04 am »

No, i'm talking a 400 HP tyrant. And yes it takes 3 clips, and getting 100% accuracy on a tyrant is not that much of a problem I hope...

A dretch headshot is 96 hp and the dretch will never get that close.

Your challange is accepted.

techhead · « **Reply #52 on:** November 14, 2006, 08:26:40 pm »

I can bullfight a dragoon without getting hurt almost indefinitely, or at least until one of 3 things happen.
1: He dies
2: I slip up and die
3: His friend comes along and kills me

No matter how hard I try, I can't dodge one without running into the other.

|Nex|TrEmMa · « **Reply #53 on:** November 15, 2006, 12:31:59 am »

I don't think you play against good enough dretches. I mean some of them can kill you before you can get half your clip off, not because you suck, but because of hiding and ambushing.

PHREAK · « **Reply #54 on:** November 15, 2006, 03:41:27 am »

Quote from: "IJsje"

No, i'm talking a 400 HP tyrant. And yes it takes 3 clips, and getting 100% accuracy on a tyrant is not that much of a problem I hope...

A dretch headshot is 96 hp and the dretch will never get that close.

Your challange is accepted.

I go by either CU|Phreak or [Nex]Phreak and I'm on either Boom Boom, Beer Garden or AKKA.
I'm on late nights EST.

I'll make sure to record this, just in case you forget how fast my tyrant kills.

News:

Author Topic: A closer look at "Camping" (Read 18863 times)

Lava Croft

Lava Croft