Author Topic: A closer look at "Camping"  (Read 18862 times)

Kolaris

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A closer look at "Camping"
« on: November 04, 2006, 11:48:09 pm »
I hear humans getting a lot of flack because they're so prone to camping. Many say this is why the humans are doomed to loose most matches. I would question whether this is simply laziness on the human's part, or a flaw in game design. Let's take a closer look at camping.

Humans camp in the same way aliens camp. The only difference is where. Humans need to camp where their ammo and health come from, and so do the aliens. For the humans, this is in the safety of their base. For the aliens it's...everywhere. So usually right next to the human base.

*Forward Base Argument: This is what I usually hear in reponse to my comment. Honestly, a simple repeater isn't good enough since that's only half the equation. I can shoot all I want, but I'll die sooner rather than later. If you devote a forward medstation you'll usually want protection for your outpost, so you begin divding defenses which spells doom to humans once SD hits. Ah, SD. The other side to this is that any human smart enough to build a forward base is in dire need on the frontlines, with a gun. This strategy requires team-whole cooperation, and seriously, when was the last public game you saw that in? Aliens on the other hand can easily move in on their own and take out a turret or two, or a solo grangar can easily set up an egg+booster in a concealed location.

Bases carry this principle too. Human bases go where the power is. So do the aliens. (Insert Creep) Human structures go in their restricted base. Alien structures go everywhere.

*Base Durability argument: I usually hear that the above is perfectly fair because human bases last longer, while alien bases are flexible. Fine, fine. I'd like to ask you how often each base comes under attack. Since, see, the aliens are camping outside the human base, their offense becomes their defense. The alien base rarely gets hurt on larger servers of 30+ players.

That bringes me to the next point. The alternatives to camping. If some brave humans band together and try to break through the alien camp, what do they meet? Generally tyrants. Lots of them. Even if they do push through the tyrants, their superior speed let's them retreat not far off where they can regenerate, while the humans having spent their ammo must go all the way back to their base.

So I come to the close. I humbly suggest either you acknowledge that camping is a valid tactic for BOTH races, or that something is done game-wise to fix the issue entirely.

Neo

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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2006, 12:18:30 am »
Firstly camping is optional as its rare to have a map where you are far enough away from the base to have trouble getting from human to alien bases without running out of ammo(unless you have a chaingun).

It is pretty much a case of humans never pushing when they have an advantage. ie. In S2 humans can rush an alien base and destroy it so long as they didn't feed aliens heavily.

If you're forced to stay in base fighting off tyrants and advanced goons. Then its your own failing if you hear it dying and let it run off to regenerate. Always chase down fleeing heavy aliens if you ever want to have a chance of getting a second chance. If you don't they can just keep coming back til SD and you lose.

Its the players actively doing something that wins games for humans its just that recently human players have gone down in skill level noticeably so that aliens win far more matches than they used to.

Kolaris

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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2006, 12:27:12 am »
Quote from: "Neo"
Firstly camping is optional as its rare to have a map where you are far enough away from the base to have trouble getting from human to alien bases without running out of ammo(unless you have a chaingun).

It is pretty much a case of humans never pushing when they have an advantage. ie. In S2 humans can rush an alien base and destroy it so long as they didn't feed aliens heavily.

If you're forced to stay in base fighting off tyrants and advanced goons. Then its your own failing if you hear it dying and let it run off to regenerate. Always chase down fleeing heavy aliens if you ever want to have a chance of getting a second chance. If you don't they can just keep coming back til SD and you lose.

Its the players actively doing something that wins games for humans its just that recently human players have gone down in skill level noticeably so that aliens win far more matches than they used to.


Why would we assume the skill level of humans is going down while it isn't for aliens? That isn't statistically usual.

I agree feeding is part of the issue here, but that isn't something that can be controlled. I'd hate to think that it isn't about which team has the greater skilled players, but which team has the most noobs that decides the match.

And again, aliens can flee, you can chase them down, but what usually happens is that another alien camping around the human base will simply kill you as you chase after it.

Perhaps this goes back to feeding again, that there shouldn't be that many tyrants surrounding the human base. But stop saying there 'shouldnt' be and start realizing that there ARE.

Lava Croft

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A closer look at "Camping"
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2006, 12:33:10 am »
I think this discussion is pointless, since most Humans just aren't good enough to fight the Aliens, yet. You can already see the balance shift slightly towards the Humans, especially compared to when Tremulous 1.1.0 was just released.

holyknight

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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2006, 01:24:05 am »
good human players will go down with aliens fighting them, not while camping :P

1337 1

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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2006, 03:50:56 am »
You think the humans in trem camp?

Try playing the combat mode in Advance Wars: Dual Strike.

That game redefines camping.
n the ongoing battle between the ground and the plane
the ground is yet to lose.

player12345

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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 07:04:58 am »
Theres a game i tested with a close group of friends, i told all of them to camp as hard as they possiblely could and anyone who dies while camping gets spec999ed.

its 3 v 3

Result:
60mins
no SD
alien 2 kills total
humans 7
( of course no1 got spec999ed )

the game end in a tie

Point of the story: If the humans are good campers,it WORKS, but its a very very long and boring game. If the humans are bad campers, aka newbs, humans die.

another game - humans go all out, alien camp
still the same 3 v 3
the human and alien both got to s2
humans lost
reason: the humans all got killed when trying to make their way back - resulting in a bunch of rifle helmet guys thats relatively useless. They almost manage to destroy the alien base but alien granger is able to repair the damage and dretch - poison all the human rushers. The attacking human eventually feed aliens to goons and 3 goon rushed the human nodes - GG

Juno

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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2006, 12:54:15 am »
servers of 30+ players are not normal


trem is best with about 6 per team



15 bsuits with luics will probably make it to the alein base

holyknight

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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2006, 06:20:33 am »
Quote from: "Juno"
servers of 30+ players are not normal


trem is best with about 6 per team



15 bsuits with luics will probably make it to the alein base

true that :P

Juno

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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2006, 11:19:00 am »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Spamming Lucy is like camping your Turrets, when met with the reply of a brainless Alien team, it's insanely powerful.




although taken from another thread, that does actually make sense







half the time humans camp they do actually get s2 before aleins, due to turret kills, and aleins being weakend by turrets, before being chased down


if the aleins keep going to the humans, the humans have no reason the leave the base


also, as n00bs tend to go to the humans, they will feed good dretches and goons etc

i only leave the base at s1 if i know the other players arnt amazing, and if i have support, as i have bad aim and will feed




but i dont mind humans reaching s2 before aleins. they tend to rush with prifles etc and if i get one or two kills as basi or somthing, then ive got a bout 6 evos handy, instead of 2 or 3 from killing s1 humans

DASPRiD

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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2006, 12:10:31 pm »
Uhm, seams like you don't know: Turret kills doesnt count for the team. Thats why I love to attack as dretch. Humans are standing near the turrets, you got one by headbite, and before other humans can aim on you, you are still killed by a turret. Well it does count on your deaths, but they aren't shown anywhere ;)
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Stof

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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2006, 02:14:02 pm »
Quote from: "DASPRiD"
Uhm, seams like you don't know: Turret kills doesnt count for the team. Thats why I love to attack as dretch. Humans are standing near the turrets, you got one by headbite, and before other humans can aim on you, you are still killed by a turret. Well it does count on your deaths, but they aren't shown anywhere ;)

It counts if human players did more damage on you than turrets.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

kevlarman

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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2006, 05:12:25 pm »
Quote from: "Stof"

It counts if human players did more damage on you than turrets.
true, but it's still relatively easy to run in, get a headshot, and die to a turret without taking any damage from humans, and if you have poison, you will kill a helmetless human almost instanty.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Stof

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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2006, 06:02:37 pm »
Quote from: "kevlarman"
Quote from: "Stof"

It counts if human players did more damage on you than turrets.
true, but it's still relatively easy to run in, get a headshot, and die to a turret without taking any damage from humans, and if you have poison, you will kill a helmetless human almost instanty.

Yes, it would work. But if ANY human damages you, even a little, they'll get full credits for your death.

Anyway, my personal analysis on the reasons for human camping is that the game is tuned for that, that humans have to camp at stage 1 if they want to win unless they have a massive skill advantage against the opposing team. And so, the first thing we teach new players since all games start at stage one is to camp camp camp if they want a chance of winning.

Why? Because a good goon player makes going out as a human without helmet the same a suiciding, loosing your money and advancing the aliens next stage. If there is a good goon player outside and we are stage 1, I'd prefer that the whole human team camp behind the turrets and pick off adventurous dretches than that they go out and feed the aliens. I would need at least an organised team of 3 good players and 1 decoy to kill the goon. Remember that a cost effective way to kill a goon like that requires that the alien player do not get more than 2 evo points in the process. At stage one, it's impossible to attack a goon without losing at least one human in the process since it's impossible to move out of the base without losing your head around a corner. That's one point for the goon. The rest of the team must then rush the position and kill it before it has time to reajust it's aim and kill 2 more humans or to flee.

Awfully difficult isn't it?
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Ryanw4390

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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2006, 06:05:50 pm »
There was a discussion about this on our clan forum a few months back regarding human campers. After much discussion, the problem really isn't that the humans are camping, its that the aliens are camping outside human bases. Now why is that? Unlike the humans, the aliens don't need to rely on their base at all. They don't need to buy more ammo, they don't need to upgrade at their base. This got us thinking, what IF aliens DID have to go to their base, or at least near the proximity of their OM to regenerate health and evolve into new classes. Wouldn't this at least help the problem with aliens camping and in turn let the humans have a chance to make a push at the enemy base without human campers? I'm not sure if this has been tried already, but if it hasn't I think this setup should be tested, it might end up making the camping problem more managable.
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n00b pl0x

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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2006, 09:02:57 pm »
yes i was a part of this discussion, and i thought a nice way to try it would be to have you regen only when near alien structures, and different structures would have different ways of letting you regen

OM- large range, regen 2x
booster- smallest range, regen 2x
eggs- medium range regen 2x
all others- medium range regen 1x

That is what i think to be a decent way to set it up, but this is just a theory

ryan also hinted at our evolution discussion; how aliens can evolve wherever they want, though humans can only buy new weapons and upgrades at the armory.
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HOW DO I SORTED SIG?

Neo

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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006, 10:01:09 pm »
That would just make boosters useless except for the minor poison damage.

Kolaris

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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2006, 12:18:50 am »
Quote from: "Ryanw4390"
There was a discussion about this on our clan forum a few months back regarding human campers. After much discussion, the problem really isn't that the humans are camping, its that the aliens are camping outside human bases. Now why is that? Unlike the humans, the aliens don't need to rely on their base at all. They don't need to buy more ammo, they don't need to upgrade at their base. This got us thinking, what IF aliens DID have to go to their base, or at least near the proximity of their OM to regenerate health and evolve into new classes. Wouldn't this at least help the problem with aliens camping and in turn let the humans have a chance to make a push at the enemy base without human campers? I'm not sure if this has been tried already, but if it hasn't I think this setup should be tested, it might end up making the camping problem more managable.


Aye, that's the problem I was trying to express, and that's the solution I didn't come up with.  :P

I definately think that would help this game a lot.


I also thoroughly agree with the reasons for s1 camping. 520 credits spent on s1 for MD+Battery Pack will still yield you death in 1 bite to a goon, 2 to a dretch that didn't even pay anything. And what do you think is more likely? A dretch killing a MD human in 2 bites or a Machine Gun killing a goon? The kill-cost ratio for getting those setups is roughly the same too.

Ryanw4390

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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2006, 01:12:10 am »
Quote
That would just make boosters useless except for the minor poison damage.


I think that loosing the booster is the price we need to pay to stop camping.
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techhead

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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2006, 01:37:54 am »
Give the booster a 3x regen maybe?
More useful than it is now, and its an anti-camping mechanism.
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Vector_Matt

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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2006, 06:01:59 pm »
How about this?

OM- large range, regen 1x
booster- medium range, regen 2x +poison+
eggs- small range regen 1x
all others- smallest range regen 0.5x
Tyrant- medium range, regen 2x
no structure- no range regen 0.2x

All values are in relation to the current regen rates.

pyrax

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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2006, 07:33:06 pm »
Quote from: "Vector_Matt"
How about this?

OM- large range, regen 1x
booster- medium range, regen 2x +poison+
eggs- small range regen 1x
all others- smallest range regen 0.5x
Tyrant- medium range, regen 2x
no structure- no range regen 0.2x

All values are in relation to the current regen rates.


How about, instead of the Tyrant, make the Adv. Basi. gas regenerate 2x (or even just 1x)?

Otherwise this list sounds feasible.

techhead

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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2006, 10:25:22 pm »
How about:
No structure: .5x
Standing On Creep (Egg or Overmind): 1.0x
Tyrant or Booster: 2.0x
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IJsje

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« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2006, 10:27:19 am »
How about, none of the above.

Humans have ranged high damage weapons. If the human base becomes seiged it's because they don't use those properly.

Humans just need to aim and team up. Four guys with mg can easily take out a goon (good or not).

The problem is humans are reluctant to leave the base because they fear the aliens. Those who go out of turret range ussualy die because they go sit still on some stupid place playing alien food. (humans on atcs camping on doorstep)

If the humans run out of their base early they can gain map control and siege the alien base but somehow humans don't. It's not a question of balance, humans are just scared. Maybe we should replace the alien models with big happy bunny models or something.

Stof

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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2006, 11:29:36 am »
Quote from: "IJsje"
How about, none of the above.

Humans have ranged high damage weapons. If the human base becomes seiged it's because they don't use those properly.

Humans just need to aim and team up. Four guys with mg can easily take out a goon (good or not).

So, you are saying the solution is to play with 4 humans for each alien?

Quote from: "IJsje"
The problem is humans are reluctant to leave the base because they fear the aliens. Those who go out of turret range ussualy die because they go sit still on some stupid place playing alien food. (humans on atcs camping on doorstep)

If the humans run out of their base early they can gain map control and siege the alien base but somehow humans don't. It's not a question of balance, humans are just scared. Maybe we should replace the alien models with big happy bunny models or something.

I don't see how a team of medium level humans can gain map control at stage one provided there is at least 1 or 2 good alien players in the opposing team. Where do they get their health and ammo? And how is it that they do not feed the aliens if they are really medium level players?
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

raf

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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2006, 11:32:26 am »
i guess im a pretty good alien (altough most of the time im a bit confused [stoned ;-)])
my observation is : i hardly miss a chance to own a team of human campers (avg players, no pros ;-) ).
As soon as they start chasing me after my attacks and maybe move around in groups of 3 or more ppl it gets much harder to win.

I agree with what IJsje said - a few machineguns (even newby ones) can be a pain in the ass for every goon - just as long as they play a bit aggressive

IJsje

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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2006, 11:38:01 am »
Quote from: "Stof"

So, you are saying the solution is to play with 4 humans for each alien?


Yes, aliens can't fight well in teams so you can engage them one by one. Four is a bit much, 2 can do it aswell.
 
Quote from: "Stof"

I don't see how a team of medium level humans can gain map control at stage one provided there is at least 1 or 2 good alien players in the opposing team. Where do they get their health and ammo? And how is it that they do not feed the aliens if they are really medium level players?


Giving the aliens kills is not bad as long as you match or exceed. Ammo and health are available at the armoury and medipad (you can actually walk back if  the rest of the team is out fighting too, providing cover for your retreat).

Are you suggesting to destoy the balance because people don't want to make balanced teams?

Stof

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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2006, 11:52:21 am »
Quote from: "IJsje"
Giving the aliens kills is not bad as long as you match or exceed. Ammo and health are available at the armoury and medipad (you can actually walk back if  the rest of the team is out fighting too, providing cover for your retreat).

My basic knowledge in logistics tell me that it such thing will fail as soon as the map is slightly too big ( read, bigger than ATCS )

Quote from: "IJsje"
Are you suggesting to destoy the balance because people don't want to make balanced teams?

I'm suggesting that there isn't balance and that most alien players want it like that fearing that everybody will see that they aren't that good after all once the imbalances are fixed :P
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

IJsje

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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2006, 12:22:05 pm »
Quote from: "Stof"
My basic knowledge in logistics tell me that it such thing will fail as soon as the map is slightly too big ( read, bigger than ATCS )


Not really, and no if your team is actually attacking  the alien base, which is another thing humans persistanly forget to do. Plus aliens have to respawn too if you kill them, making it harder for them to kill you.

Quote from: "Stof"
I'm suggesting that there isn't balance and that most alien players want it like that fearing that they everybody will see that they aren't that good after once the imbalances are fixed :P


Most alien players aren't that good, that is true, it's just that human players are worse.

Come to AW more, you'll see it's balanced.

Stof

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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2006, 12:34:54 pm »
Quote from: "IJsje"
Quote from: "Stof"
My basic knowledge in logistics tell me that it such thing will fail as soon as the map is slightly too big ( read, bigger than ATCS )


Not really, and no if your team is actually attacking  the alien base, which is another thing humans persistanly forget to do. Plus aliens have to respawn too if you kill them, making it harder for them to kill you.

When you have to walk two minutes to go to the alien base and back to the human base to get ammo and health, you HAVE logistic problems that will arise and make such siege on the alien base completly impossible, unless you have a massive equipment advantage. And even then.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.