The system trem uses to make maps

[DIGI_Byte]

I think using the Q3 engine was a mistake as it is a modified engine (great) with some of the guts ripped out.

The Half-life 1 engine and q2 engine both are old But the have emulated lights that are rendered on there spot how ever in q3 this function was removed and all lighting is rendered during 'bsping' this in trem results in limited lighting capabilities in maps I would like timbo or others too add this.

[Odin]

How is that bad? That makes the game run faster. Real-time lighting, especially with light fixtures is a retarded concept, unless they move.

[rasz_pl]

http://evolution.quakedev.com/
http://xreal.sourceforge.net/xrealwiki/CodeChanges

too much work to port imo, and nobody that i know likes fancy lightning, because that = dark maps

[Odin]

The only things related to lighting that I think need to be changed is character lighting(so that you can actually hide in the shadows instead of being illuminated all the time), and the way q3map2 creates the stair-stepping effect of large shadows.

[kozak6]

Fancy lighting would be rather bad for Tremulous.

A lot of people play Tremulous because it runs well on old shitty computers, like mine.

You stuff it full of fancy lighting, and the framerates go down the toilet, and there goes a good section of our playerbase.

[Odin]

Well now that I've seen Evolution for Quake 3, it's definitely possible and probably would be a good idea for Tremulous to have such graphical improvements.
If you've ever played Darkplaces, you'll know how well it brings back the fun in the original Quake, but you can actually disable all the Darkplaces enhancements and it will play just like the original Quake. What I'm saying is, we could have these improvements, but have them optional.

[Lakitu7]

Fancy lighting would be rather bad for Tremulous.

A lot of people play Tremulous because it runs well on old shitty computers, like mine.

You stuff it full of fancy lighting, and the framerates go down the toilet, and there goes a good section of our playerbase.

I've got to agree with this. Tremulous already scales pretty badly and I'm more often surprised by how often it won't run on systems that handle Q3 fine. It doesn't need to be any worse for that unless steps are taken to allow for better scalability and all of those options are tested to not give an advantage to a player with them set either way.

[Taiyo.uk]

Well now that I've seen Evolution for Quake 3, it's definitely possible and probably would be a good idea for Tremulous to have such graphical improvements.
If you've ever played Darkplaces, you'll know how well it brings back the fun in the original Quake, but you can actually disable all the Darkplaces enhancements and it will play just like the original Quake. What I'm saying is, we could have these improvements, but have them optional.

Absolutely - play Nexuiz and fiddle with the graphics settings (nex uses darkplaces). With all the fancy lighting turned off nex and trem look near identical. The benefit is that you can have posh graphics if your computer can handle it without putting those with less capable hardware at a disadvantage.

I doubt there's much to worry about fancy lighting encouraging dark maps (like those of DOOM3) because it won't stop mappers from making bright maps, and most mappers know that trem works well with bright maps.

[kozak6]

Meh, I don't know...

For me, the last playable version of Nexuiz was 1.2.1.

1.5 was unplayable even with everything turned down or off, and with whatever the current version is, my framerate fluctuates anywhere between 10-200 fps all on the same map.

[gareth]

how ever in q3 this function was removed and all lighting is rendered during 'bsping' this in trem results in limited lighting capabilities in maps I would like timbo or others too add this.

nope. you have dynamic lights in q3, they just dont behave quite like the ones in q2.

[Stof]

how ever in q3 this function was removed and all lighting is rendered during 'bsping' this in trem results in limited lighting capabilities in maps I would like timbo or others too add this.

nope. you have dynamic lights in q3, they just dont behave quite like the ones in q2.

And considering how UGLY they were in quake 2, thank god for that!

[Odin]

Didn't RTCW have those kinds of dynamic lights?

[[db@]Megabite]

I think... [...]

Please stop trying. The only relevant features Quake2 and Half-Life (based on Quake1 enhanced with some Quake2 code) have:

1. OpenGL support
2. Mipmapping
3. colored lighting
4. dynamic lighting

Quake3 can do all of these plus some funky stuff like shaders and vertex animation.... -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_III_Arena#Technology
But who needs that when engines 3+ years older are "better"!?

But wait, I am feedin that troll again...

Danny

[InfernoX347]

I think using the Q3 engine was a mistake as it is a modified engine (great) with some of the guts ripped out.

The Half-life 1 engine and q2 engine both are old But the have emulated lights that are rendered on there spot how ever in q3 this function was removed and all lighting is rendered during 'bsping' this in trem results in limited lighting capabilities in maps I would like timbo or others too add this.

Mappers can use something called SHADER LIGHTING, which makes lighting a billion times cooler.

I do agree though, light entities are craptacular

[jal]

Didn't RTCW have those kinds of dynamic lights?

It's called lightstyles (they aren't real lights, but different lightmaps created for the same surface for different light intensities), and yes, raven's format adds them to Q3 bsp. It's the same at RTCW, JKII, SOF2 and others. It can be emulated for Q3 using shaders (via Q3map2) but I wouldn't recomend it cause the faked system isn't very good (adds bloat and not always look as good as it should).

Maybe someone could implement raven's format load in trem, it isn't in the too hard side of things (QFusion loads them, the info can be found there).

[rasz_pl]

Didn't RTCW have those kinds of dynamic lights?

It's called lightstyles (they aren't real lights, but different lightmaps created for the same surface for different light intensities), and yes, raven's format adds them to Q3 bsp. It's the same at RTCW, JKII, SOF2 and others. It can be emulated for Q3 using shaders (via Q3map2) but I wouldn't recomend it cause the faked system isn't very good (adds bloat and not always look as good as it should).

Maybe someone could implement raven's format load in trem, it isn't in the too hard side of things (QFusion loads them, the info can be found there).

1 why?
2 go for it, seriously, try to add some shit from evolution or xreal to ioq3

[Odin]

Just find out the differences between EvolutionQ3 and Tremulous sources and patch Tremulous with those differences.
Of course there'd be work involved in other areas as well, but that's basically how you'd do it.

[rasz_pl]

Just find out the differences between EvolutionQ3 and Tremulous sources and patch Tremulous with those differences.
Of course there'd be work involved in other areas as well, but that's basically how you'd do it.

thank you captain obvious

[Odin]

Yea I'm no programmer.

[Lava Croft]

Why are you all even discussing this? It's like discussing wheter Santa Claus really exists or not; the outcome is totally irrelevant, and nothing is going to change anyway.

[rasz_pl]

Why are you all even discussing this? It's like discussing wheter Santa Claus really exists or not; the outcome is totally irrelevant, and nothing is going to change anyway.

not really, im going to look into those "math and renderer functions that take account the speed of SSE, Altivec, and 3dNow! CPU extensions."

[DIGI_Byte]

Megabite"]

I think... [...]

Please stop trying. The only relevant features Quake2 and Half-Life (based on Quake1 enhanced with some Quake2 code) have:

1. OpenGL support
2. Mipmapping
3. colored lighting
4. dynamic lighting

Quake3 can do all of these plus some funky stuff like shaders and vertex animation.... -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_III_Arena#Technology
But who needs that when engines 3+ years older are "better"!?

But wait, I am feedin that troll again...

Danny

What do you know danny? STFU
all im saying the lighting in trem is limited i don't want fancy lighting in the game as stated earlier and when i was referring to the older games i was mearly pointing out that its not imposable for this engine, dynamic light could actually make this game better and offer more options for trem maps and also that might help in solving the models being highlighted in dark places. I say import a primitive dynamic lighting system without the fancy stuff.

[Risujin]

how ever in q3 this function was removed and all lighting is rendered during 'bsping' this in trem results in limited lighting capabilities in maps I would like timbo or others too add this.

nope. you have dynamic lights in q3, they just dont behave quite like the ones in q2.

And considering how UGLY they were in quake 2, thank god for that!

I was pretty amazed by the way Trem can render a light *through* a texture and project it (amaaazing!!). But isn't this "dynamic lightining" recalculated every frame? As it lags considerably, perhaps there is a "better way"? A minor issue either way IMHO.

[DIGI_Byte]

how ever in q3 this function was removed and all lighting is rendered during 'bsping' this in trem results in limited lighting capabilities in maps I would like timbo or others too add this.

nope. you have dynamic lights in q3, they just dont behave quite like the ones in q2.

And considering how UGLY they were in quake 2, thank god for that!

I was pretty amazed by the way Trem can render a light *through* a texture and project it (amaaazing!!). But isn't this "dynamic lightining" recalculated every frame? As it lags considerably, perhaps there is a "better way"? A minor issue either way IMHO.

the process of bsping and shadows.... well lets just say that this was fine for q3 arena (same engine different gameplay) back ontopic, the shadows that you see in trem are fake they are an optical illustion basically q3map2 paints a transparent map of the map that you make the wall is painted with the respective colour on the walls and it sits ontop of the textures.

if you understand any of the rubish i just said you should understand why the models seem highlighted.

[jal]

The models are always lighten up (can't hide in shadows) because they are forced to be. First, the maps seem to be compiled with pretty high ambient values, which gives global ilumination to them, and second, models probably have RF_MINLIGHT so they are never black. BTW, this is a very good thing in my opinion. Hiding in shadows in trem has no point. This isn't Thief4.

As for xreal's rendering. I don't see it desirable, specially with the huge amount of detail some maps have (porting it is as easy as linking a different lib). Q3 renderer fits perfect, imo.

[Dersaidin]

Quake 3 engine is awesome. Best engine ever imo.

Besides, I think dynamic lights are possible. I know in other Q3 based games (it appears) you can effect the lightmap by firing your gun and some other stuff.
But thats realy just a waste of CPU time.

[rasz_pl]

Quake 3 engine is awesome. Best engine ever imo.

never played UT? UT mods can have HUGE open space maps that run >100FPS on CRAP computers and look good

and I mean the original 1999 UT
Too bad the engine is closed source ((

[Dj_Pong]

never played UT? UT mods can have HUGE open space maps that run >100FPS on CRAP computers and look good

and I mean the original 1999 UT
Too bad the engine is closed source ((

Well i cant TOTALLY agree with that. I used to play SNIPER mod (maybe you know that one) Sniping/camping needs HUGE maps. Maybe because the creator f*cked up textures or something like that but TOO HUGE maps will cause FPS loss also

But i must admit that UT gotty is a nice engine. Too bad the players look like crap lol)

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

What do you know danny? STFU
all im saying the lighting in trem is limited

How is the lightingin Tremulous limited?

You can (with q3map2) create:

Dynamic light effects. (Flickering strobes and the like.)
Normal-mapped lighting. (Apply a surface-texturing to a material, wooden bridges look much better, etc, etc.)
Feathered lighting. (Sunlight casts a sharper shadow from objects closer to the ground.)
Coloured transparency and filtering. (Stained-glass windows.)

Hell, Q3map2 can even lightmap and self-shadow models you put on the game-map.

So, how again, is Trem lighting limited except by mapper's imagination?

[next_ghost]

So, how again, is Trem lighting limited except by mapper's imagination?

It's limited by the most important thing there is: mapper's skill