In Game Advertisments

[StVald]

I understand your concerns about the mappers and devs, if it was ever to work we'd give a share of the money to both of them.

[KamikOzzy]

I dont think that in-game ads would be a major trouble. Imagine if the soda machines in the game said Coca-Cola, and those posters on Transit read "Just Do It" with a Nike Swoosh instead of "Lens Flares Are For Noobs." Wouldn't bother me one bit, and maybe even set up the possibility for a little humor during gameplay.

[Dersaidin]

What Revenant and LinuxManMikeC have said is correct.

You'd do it by making a suplement pk3 with a name further along the alphabet so it is loaded after. The suplement pk3 should replace the .shader as rather than .jpg or .tga files. Make whatever changes in the .shader

You can make a single shader cycle through a list of textures at a set interval. So, you could use that to display multiple adds for a few seconds/minutes/whatever without having to change the pk3.

[KnightBear]

wouldnt it just be simpler to have mappers include the ads as original textures?  i mean, i plan on mapping for trem when i get other projects out of the way.  i also wouldnt mind throwing in a couple of posters on it that pushed the point a bit.

and as far as replacing the textures.  you can have any textures in a map that youd like, so long as the texture was the same size as the original added in GTKR.  the problem with that would be, a player could download the map elsewhere and miss the added ads altogether.  they would see the original texture, no matter what textures the server was running.  Linuxman gave us a great example of that

[OverFlow]

I'm just going to go ahead and say this isn't going to happen. <_<

[LinuxManMikeC]

and as far as replacing the textures.  you can have any textures in a map that youd like, so long as the texture was the same size as the original added in GTKR.  the problem with that would be, a player could download the map elsewhere and miss the added ads altogether.  they would see the original texture, no matter what textures the server was running.  Linuxman gave us a great example of that

With my method it doesn't matter where you get the map, so long as its the same map (same geometry, same texture names, size, and placement).  Players would download the ad textures per-server.  And as I said, I would create a per-server mod for the ads so that it wouldn't interfere with normal servers.  AFAIK, if you would disconnect from a server running a mod and go onto a normal one it will automatically turn off the mod, right?

I'm just going to go ahead and say this isn't going to happen. <_<

I don't mean to argue (especially not with a dev :eek: ), but if I sound that way please excuse me. (aw crap, I guess I kinda am arguing :oops: )
OverFlow, if you mean that this will never be supported by the development team, it doesn't matter.  If you mean that the community wouldn't allow it, I'm not so sure.  As for legalities, as long as they have permission (either in the license or an exception from the creator) or create their own map, they can do this.

[Caveman]

Just a hint...
If I catch someone modifying textures of my maps, he is bound to catch hell from me. Literally!

[LinuxManMikeC]

And that would mean they don't have your permission.  Though anyone that doesn't want their map textures overridden better be using a license that prohibits altering the map, otherwise they will look like jerks when they complain.  Being the nice guy I am, I would respect your wishes regardless.  It would be good politics to ask even if it is opensource.

[Dersaidin]

I dont think it would be altering the map, perhaps a licence protecting from derivative works would do it.

[TyrranzzX]

Trying to give players on your server yet another reason why not to play on it?

[LinuxManMikeC]

I really hate unconstructive criticism.

Everyone, please consider the following before whining about how bad SST is:
1 - If you don't like SST and don't play there, SHUT UP!
2 - If you don't like SST and still play there, SHUT UP! (or stop playing and see point #1 )

Now for something constructive...
SST guys, maybe you should ask the players that frequent your server before doing this.  Poll during a game or something.  You could also try putting in one map at a time with ads and see what the response is.

To players who frequent the SST server, they apparently don't have the deep pockets to fund your good time.  If you don't want ads then donate to keep the server up and running.  And note everyone, just because there are few donations doesn't mean people don't like the server.  Maybe the majority of the players are either piss poor or too cheap.  If and when SST puts up ads, players, if you don't like it, then don't play there.  SST will get the idea and either find a different way to fund the server or shut down.

[Caveman]

1 - If you don't like SST and don't play there, SHUT UP!
2 - If you don't like SST and still play there, SHUT UP! (or stop playing and see point #1 )

If this were the SST-Forum I'd even support you.
But alas, this is the Trem-Forum, so bag your shit, shut up and head on over to SST.

[LinuxManMikeC]

Allow me to add...
3 - If you don't like SST, but have more to say than "SST sucks", lets hear it.

Guess thats what I get for chiming in on a loaded topic, shot myself in the foot  :oops: .  And now for me to SHUT UP!

[StVald]

But alas, this is the Trem-Forum, so bag your shit, shut up and head on over to SST.

I thought the tremulous forums encompassed the whole community. I thought if I came here I would get some help from at least a few people. Its not about your preference in game play, its about helping other people enjoy their game play. Caveman you have to understand that you are not the whole community and you have no right to speak on their behalf when obviously there are people like LinuxMan that are not self obsessed like some neanderthal I know and are willing to help. This is the trem forum, helpful to many members of the community, and so I'm staying here.

[KnightBear]

not self obsessed like some neanderthal I know

who could you POSSIBLY be refering too?

anyway.  if you can make a mod, go for it.  but i still argue that the best solution is to just ask the mappers.  youd be very surprized how i ponder over what textures i use in a map.  release a texture pack containing the ads.... see the results for yourself.  its easier, plus its a good supplimental way to do what may need to be done.

personally, i dont play on SST, however, i dont want to see it be shut down.  im introducing my clan to trem, and i think that SST provides a great learning experience in the way of not shooting your teammates
even though there are alot of things that are different(player count and build points)  SSt still provides fast paced training.

[tuple]

When I think of in game advertisements, I think of a particular map component, like caulk, that would signify an acceptable location for advertisements, and point to a default texture.  Mappers could build them into their maps if they wanted to.  The incentive would be that maps that allow some form of advertisements would be more likely to be on the rotation of servers that pay for themselves through advertisements.

However, the servers with advertisements would be limited to maps that allow advertisements, and may ultimately have to pay for such maps.  Mappers could then create 2 versions, the free version without the capability of advertisements, and the pay version that has space for adverts.

I profess to being a complete idiot beyond this idea (if not including this idea!), so I have no clue as to wether or not such a modification is even reasonable.  It does seem to address both sides of this argument though.

just an idea though.

[StVald]

Thanks for all the help everybody! Currently this ad system is still in the conceptualization stage, but I have a feeling that with some newly offered help this will be going places. And also strongly agree with Tuple, if you are a map designer and don't oppose to in game adds please create special areas that we may be able to place ads.

[Caveman]

Ok, how do the mapper get compensated?

[tuple]

I would imagine a mapper could "sell" the rights to use the map as they see fit to the Server Operator.  Perhaps a future tremulous version could have an additional and optional server side component to maps that leave the potential of requiring a key to host it.  Pie in the sky really, I'm just speculating.  It would all get legally hazy I imagine, in maps that require other maps for the textures to work properly, then who's license is to be followed?  Should the CC for the included map be followed?  Remember, the included map is not necessary for the functioning of the map and is not distributed with the non-CC licensed map.  curious...
Mind you, all this could be included while allowing the CC/FOSS side of the project to continue like nothing happened.  It would just be a way for Operators and mappers to monetize their work and/or support their infrastructure.
Sadly, it does nothing for developers.  However, creating a financially thriving environement around tremulous would certainly increase donations to developers, at least some.  Operators and mappers would then gain a potential financial stake in the health and well being of the tremulous code base and would therefore gain an incentive to take care of the developers where they can.  Assuming it worked at all.

StVald: I've said this before and I will say it again.  I can neither map a paper bag nor my way out of it.

[KnightBear]

id rather die from cancer than charge for a map on a free game.  nor would i ever play such a map.  

release a texture pack.  itll work, and your doing textures anyway, try it.

[StVald]

I've said this before and I will say it again. I can neither map a paper bag nor my way out of it.

Heh, Tuple I meant mappers in general. And Knightbear: you wouldn't be charging the player, the game would be free for the player but the server operator can pay you for a map he's making money off of.

[Shadow-Majestic]

to not waste money dont use an entire dedicated server for ONE GAMESERVER

i was running ET/TREM/CS/LINEAGE servers on 1 dedicated without any serious lag (split them up now due to more players)

host some forums for clans with a small google add of urself or sumtin
thats what i do/did to keep my server costs mostly around 0 EUR

stop overusing ADDS! its annoying, it lags most websites (got a 20mbit connex, still costs me few secs to even CONNECT to allot of websites just cuzz the sites overuse annoying adds

and dont ever find a way to make some sort of flash popup that fills your screen ingame, i doubt u will ever regain any players then -.-

if u want adds or sumtin, make your own map with a billboard somewhere that says who made it, where u can find it, and bla...

[Fluxflashor]

Hey, before you take this the wrong way and feel in game ads are an invasion of your privacy please consider this:

Owning a game server is not cheap. SST may be shut down soon because donations just aren't cutting it. I'm wondering if a few things are possible that can help us setup in game advertisements to keep us going. Can the server send modified parts of pk3s that merge with the map pk3s? In this way the server can send ads as textures upon connection and they will be placed in the map files people already have. This would vastly reduce the file size needed to download for ads because you aren't redownloading the map for every new ad. I also wondering if you can download separate sets of geometry (shaped as electronic displays) that can be merged to the maps at specified locations. I hope there is a reversible process for this so we can remove the ads when you disconnect from SST. Of course, we will ask the map designers for permission and make sure this process follows map copyright or liscence agreement. In game ads are making big waves, and although some of the player population is showing resistance this can make enough money for server ops to host their server for free, which would be great for clan servers. besides you can choose not to play on a server with ads. Also, someone has told me that with an unpure server such as SST, it is easy to bypass the ads, but what if the ads are always downloaded upon connection so you can't disconnect and remove them?

I would have to agree with you 100% on this. Many games themselves actually support ingame ads now to keep their servers running, and also make some dough. I hope you can find a way to do this.

[Shafe]

god this topic is still alive.. pardon me for playing devils advocate here.. I do pay a pretty penny for the game servers.. If i cant afford it.. it goes away.. and thats that...  But man... maybe instead of product placement in my game -- come up with a new business plan to cover expenses..

-- snip ---

2old2play.com is running a good writeup about the effectiveness of in-game advertising.

Their study took 120 gamers, all 18 or older and were given sports games to play (which is by far the biggest user of in-game ads right now). Using Sponsor Fixation Index metrics, Bunnyfoot measured the responsiveness of gamers to the ads.

their study shows that in-game ads are failing to catch the gamers attention and are failing to influence the consumer in any significant way. If there’s little return on investment, advertisers will simply go somewhere else. Could this mean the end of in-game advertising is coming or are things just getting started? Maybe game designers will find new and innovative ways to get advertiser messages in our face. Face mapping a McGriddle sandwich on my Rainbow Six character?

They cite a great example of an in-game situation where the ads do more harm than good.

Take for instance Splinter Cell. Within multiplayer there is a map which has a truck out in front and logo’s that will change each time it is loaded. Recently this editor fell into a situation where I told my team mate that the Merc was by the "Comcast" truck. Only, he couldn’t find, the Comcast truck, because to him it was a completely different ad!

Read the whole thing here:
http://www.2old2play.com/News/In_Game_Advertising_proven_Ineffective

--- end snip ---

now these polls and whatnot are questionable as are all statistics.. but it's still a good read and worth thinking about..

[Lava Croft]

id rather die from cancer than charge for a map on a free game.  nor would i ever play such a map.

Watch your cheapass comparisons, motherfucker.

[TyrranzzX]

The only game that had acceptable advertising was tribes, and that's because you had to seek out the advertisements which were embedded in the middle of display consols and side-areas that you never noticed unless you load up a map and begin exploring.  And even then, they were for modding sites or forums and couldn't be changed without causing people to not be able to play on your server.

More importantly, once you begin to get into making money off of a server through advertising, you also begin to violate mappers feelings about providing you with free maps.