Latest testing feedback

[Norfenstein]

Observations from last friday.

Bugs: Defense computer didn't seem to warn of base damage. I know we had one and I never once heard or saw a message from it.

Aliens sometimes didn't get frags for human kills, sometimes not the right amount and sometimes only after a human died from other means (acid tube, suicide). Someone that played aliens should explain in detail.

Requests: There needs to be some way of canceling out of a /kill.

Can we please have the "buy ammo" bind also work with energy weapons and the reactor? Its user unfriendly to make the distinction between two commands that do the same thing.

Balance: Not a lot has changed. Humans can rape anything under dragoon with mid-level weapons but don't have the endurance needed to end games. The game I played last friday was extremely typical: After all but one alien quit in frustration the two remaining humans did their best to wipe out the alien base and succeeded in destroying all the eggs, but while we were out egg hunting the lone dragoon snuck into our base and destroyed the only tele and eventually killed us. It's not fun for aliens only being able to mount sneak attacks against the human base and its not fun for humans to be able to mow down every alien they see but never make an unrecoverable dent in the alien base. This has all been discussed before.

One other thing I noticed is that the beginnings of games can be very boring. Humans are basically required to sit and defend their builder and aliens can't do anything about it because soldiers can't damage human structures. So there's a lot of waiting. I think if turrets were more useful individually (see my suggestions in the Shake Up thread) builders would be more flexible and wouldn't require cover until a complete turret barrier is set up in a corner or doorway.

[DCB:ETOX]

i have to agree with norfs balance observations, and with the bug he mentioned about frags this certianly becomes a problem (raping of low-class aliens). i only managed to play human during the games i was on the server *due to my crappy cpu taking forever to load maps*. endurance is still a problem with humans though i think it actually helps keep the game balanced, though it does lead to humans needing more than one player (usually). the problem lies in expending ammo, so we could implement the 'extra ammo packs' idea, this would allow humans to make it to the alien base etc etc etc.. id like to discuss this if it is considered a resonable solution (i have a few ideas on the balance for it already). i used the painsaw and usually made it to the alien base and back, but when using an energy weapon (lasgun mostly) i had to go back and recharge alot, and the same goes for the rifle with running out of bullets.

humans could use norfs suggestion, it would definatly help. if u look at the game as it is right now, you can notice that humans have never (to the best of my knowledge) made an advanced base, while the aliens tend to spread thier bases out around the level. the problem here is linked into getting power to objects and still having enough points to make a good base around the reactor and teles. an alternative would be to give the humans more points, but i do not know the full extent of what this will do to game balance and play. one a side note: why are the point limits so small? (or do they just seam that way?)

[Norfenstein]

Played a number of full games on both teams last friday and the balance seems to be improving. Not to disappoint, I stil have a dissertation for you to read.

The alien frag "bug" mentioned above, for anyone that hasn't figured it out yet, is alien frag sharing which is A Good Thing.

I discovered how effective the lucifer cannon is for taking out alien bases if you charge straight for them and don't waste any of your ammo along the way. Any of the ideas for improving human offensive stamina previously discussed would still not be inappropriate, having more than one viable option would be good.


There are still some issues that need looked at:

The lasgun is way too useful. For 250 credits you get a perfectly accurate rapid-fire hitscan weapon that functions basically like a Quake 1 lightning gun. I think all that's needed is a damage reduction. Enough so it'd still be useful for lower level aliens but not as devastating for the higher level ones.

Turrets. Most maps are actually pretty good about not providing any lame base spots for humans, but something as simple as a conveniently placed dead-end room shouldn't ruin a map. Instead of changing them it might be enough to improve some of the abilities aliens already have. The chimera lightning, for one, needs fixed. I'm not sure if by now they're just not supposed to hurt humans that aren't near structures, but for the price of a dragoon they ought to be as useful as a dragoon. Against turrets I think they should do more damage, perhaps with a greater delay between firing. Maybe give them the option of waiting longer for a greater charge. Humans just need SOME reason not to pack all of their defenses into one spot. I think it would also help if the upgraded dragoon barbs were actually useful for taking out turrets, even if it took two to destroy only one turret. And I REALLY think dragoon barbs should regenerate on their own. It seems like a glaring inconsistency for them to be the only alien class dependent on their base -- every single other alien characteristic is self-replenishing. Even if it took longer to regenerate the barbs than it does now to refill them at a booster, it'd be an improvement. Currently they're only really useful for harassing humans by taking out their armory or defense computer, not really worthy of the strongest class aliens have.


While I'm here, I might as well ramble off my (updated) list of pet issues:

Entering /kill a second time should cancel out of the suicide countdown. A lot can happen in 10 seconds, like one of your teammates dying and respawning with a construction kit so my sacrifice of a battlesuit + lasgun + suicide penalty ends up being for nothing :\

Related to above, players should be able to respawn as a base class without having to kill themselves. Require them to stand near one of their spawns for 10 seconds (wouldn't need an extra bind, and would keep lamers from tying up the queue by standing on their spawns), but don't punish them for trying to save their team by piling a suicide penalty on top of the class or equipment they're already giving up. And expecting them to go to the enemy base or, even worse, feed an enemy player just so they can die and respawn is unreasonable.

The upgraded hydra's gas should be a separate bind from the grab. Specifically, it should be mapped to the obvious "activate upgrade" bind. Reasons: consistency, logic, user (newbie) friendliness, and tactics (I shouldn't have to alert every human within earshot that I have an upgraded hydra if all I want to do is grab someone). Also, please correct me if this isn't true, but I think the delay between gas blasts also delays the grab, which makes the upgraded hydra not an all around improvement.

The "buy ammo" bind should also "buy" ammo for energy weapons at the reactor. Again with consistency and user friendliness. In a heated battle I shouldn't have to make the distinction between two separate binds to get ammo and get back to the fight, even worse if you get mixed up and accidently pull up the armory menu when there's a dragoon breathing down your neck (or hopping away from your turrets with 9 health).

Another lameness guard: Builders shouldn't be able to destroy spawns that are being attacked by an enemy.

[Timbo]

The lasgun is way too useful. For 250 credits you get a perfectly accurate rapid-fire hitscan weapon that functions basically like a Quake 1 lightning gun. I think all that's needed is a damage reduction. Enough so it'd still be useful for lower level aliens but not as devastating for the higher level ones.

Believe it or not, in terms of damage delt per second, the lasgun is identical to the rifle. I guess it makes up for that by not having to reload. Nevertheless, I've slowed it down a touch, as I do agree by and large.

Turrets. Most maps are actually pretty good about not providing any lame base spots for humans, but something as simple as a conveniently placed dead-end room shouldn't ruin a map. Instead of changing them it might be enough to improve some of the abilities aliens already have. The chimera lightning, for one, needs fixed. I'm not sure if by now they're just not supposed to hurt humans that aren't near structures, but for the price of a dragoon they ought to be as useful as a dragoon. Against turrets I think they should do more damage, perhaps with a greater delay between firing. Maybe give them the option of waiting longer for a greater charge. Humans just need SOME reason not to pack all of their defenses into one spot.

Done a few things here. Yes the Chimera did have a bug with attacking humans, yes its damage was fairly pathetic. I've fixed the former and upped the latter (by quite a lot). I guess we'll see how it goes. The other thing I've done is to fairly dramatically increase the splashdamage that turrets cause when they explode. The thinking behind this is that it discourages clumping them close to each other since they will have a tendency to take each other out when blowing up.

I think it would also help if the upgraded dragoon barbs were actually useful for taking out turrets, even if it took two to destroy only one turret. And I REALLY think dragoon barbs should regenerate on their own. It seems like a glaring inconsistency for them to be the only alien class dependent on their base -- every single other alien characteristic is self-replenishing. Even if it took longer to regenerate the barbs than it does now to refill them at a booster, it'd be an improvement. Currently they're only really useful for harassing humans by taking out their armory or defense computer, not really worthy of the strongest class aliens have.

OK, I've upped the damage these do a bit and they now regenerate at the rate of one every ten seconds.

Entering /kill a second time should cancel out of the suicide countdown. A lot can happen in 10 seconds, like one of your teammates dying and respawning with a construction kit so my sacrifice of a battlesuit + lasgun + suicide penalty ends up being for nothing :\

Done.

The upgraded hydra's gas should be a separate bind from the grab. Specifically, it should be mapped to the obvious "activate upgrade" bind. Reasons: consistency, logic, user (newbie) friendliness, and tactics (I shouldn't have to alert every human within earshot that I have an upgraded hydra if all I want to do is grab someone). Also, please correct me if this isn't true, but I think the delay between gas blasts also delays the grab, which makes the upgraded hydra not an all around improvement.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here. Hydra grab has always been automatic, you just need to get close to the enemy for it to engage. Additionally it doesn't interfere with the actual attacks, though the attacks do interfere with each other.

The "buy ammo" bind should also "buy" ammo for energy weapons at the reactor. Again with consistency and user friendliness. In a heated battle I shouldn't have to make the distinction between two separate binds to get ammo and get back to the fight, even worse if you get mixed up and accidently pull up the armory menu when there's a dragoon breathing down your neck (or hopping away from your turrets with 9 health).

Done.

I've done a couple of other more general things, specifically weakening the dragoon slightly. I really feel it is a little too dominant a class at the moment. I've also increased the speed of the humans to baseq3 speed, running forward at least. The differential in terms of speeds between the aliens and humans has been coming down for a while now, to the point where it is quite subtle for all but the smallest alien classes, but I think it's for the best. Battles tend to take place near the human base more often than not. I believe this is mainly down to the fact that humans have a hard time moving towards the alien base compared to vice versa.

It's difficult to know where things are globally at the moment, as I really don't have a big enough sample to go by. People just aren't playing games at the moment. I don't know exactly why. I think part of the trouble is that players hold off playing until balance changes have been made. The problem with this is that in order to validate them I need a big enough sample and in order to get this people need to play, so it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation from that perspective. Most frustratingly, whenever I make balance changes I have to junk all the old data since it doesn't apply any longer. So right after making changes it's very hard to see if I'm going in the right direction for at least 20 games or so. I guess what we need is a publicity drive to attract some new blood. I've never been particularly good at that.

[Molog]

Well, I'll show up next friday again .

[Stannum]

Dragoons recharge their barbs?!

Time for humans to build more than one armoury...

[Norfenstein]

Or just put them someplace safe. Regenerating barbs just mean a dragoon won't have to go back to a booster for a refill, something that might have taken less than 20 seconds anyway.

[Supa]

Molog; As will I.

Satannum; Well, I think building a second armory is a good idea, barbs or no barbs. I've seen an alien hop in, take out the only armory and hop out waaaay too many times. Without a second armory someone needs to suicide asap and spawn with a ckit, the whole process leaving the team without an armory for about 45 seconds. That said, I think its a good thing - humans should have a backup armory and a team without one deserves to get screwed.  

[dalamcd]

I guess what we need is a publicity drive to attract some new blood. I've never been particularly good at that.

Just so you know, if Tremulous ever gets working for the Mac I can practically guarantee a few people. I do reporting for macgamer.com and a working Mac release would definitely be newsworthy. insidemacgames.com would probably pick it up as well. Each of us have a fairly big readership and you'd almost certainly get a number of new users.

[OverFlow]

I think it was posted somewhere... but Timbo basically said, unless he miraculously gets a mac machine from somewhere, he won't be able to fix the problems.