Clan Rankings

[Ryanw4390]

I used to play a game called Runescape which had no official clan system, so a few important people stepped up to make the clan system in that game what it is now. Since Runescape didn't officially recognize clans, the major fan forums decided to add a system to somehow rank the clans. At first, it was just one person who made a Rank from about 1-50 ranking clans based on their war records and current strength as a clan.

In time however, the idea of ranking clans changed. Instead of just one person ranking clans, everyone started posting their opinions and posting their own lists based on their opinion. It has gotten to the point now where nearly everyone who is in a clan and posts on that forum posts their own top 10 or top 20 list based on what they have witnessed.

If you still aren't clear on what I've tried to explain I don't blame you. Its much easier seeing it in action and I suggest you do so here if you have the time:
http://www.zybez.net/community/index.php?showtopic=438404&st=0

The real point I have in posting this topic is whether or not you think something like this should be done with Tremulous. There are pros and cons to having a system like that, pros being a lot of people have input and overtime the clans basically fall into place for the most part. Cons being of course that one win isn't necessarily going to move a clan up on everyone's list since not everyone will know about the war unless its posted here or something.

Just wanted to see everyone's opinion on having a system like this, and if you want me to go into more detail about how the list actually works ill be happy to.

[storma]

I have started something similar to what you were saying for the Australian Clans.

http://bamn.16.forumer.com/viewforum.php?f=14

It was just started recently so it is still small and being on the other side of the world, the Australian clan base also is only a handful of clans.

My thoughts with doing this were more to just document the 'history' of Australian Tremulous clan warfare.

A Ranking system will be implemented with it but only after more activity happens.

If other people would like to do something similar for their regions, we could possibly pool together our resources and come up with a central list to cover the world.

Which brings me to another idea of putting together a world ping map.
The idea behind this is to enable a fair way for internaltional competition without the hassles of ping bias.

Say an Australian clan wants to verse an American clan, if both sides have a ping of around 200 over in Austria, it would remove the slur of the 'ping bias', which I feel is a major roadblock for uniting trem players for international competition.

[Kobrakai]

Wow, I can't believe I get the first post on this thread. I would've figured others would have jumped on this by now.

In short: No.

Reasoning:
 1) This is similar to the "Rank which players are better than the other " threads, and they die quickly/get ripped apart, with good reason.
2) With everyone making different lists, there is not only no consensus, but a bunch of unbiased opinions floating around that doesn't do anyone any good and are likely to make flame wars.
3) There is no concrete record of "matches" (arena-zone is not b/c of lack of use) Also, some clans have not had matches, or even scrimms, and others find it difficult to actually have matches.

Thus far, trem is lacking in clan v. clan organization, and could arguably use some. This idea, however, is just plain stupid.

edit: Crap, someone did beat me to the first post. Anyway, Storma hit another nail in the head: you can't start ranking crap until you have activity, and you can't get activity until clans organize, and then start recording their activity. Kind of the point to my #3, I guess.

[Ryanw4390]

Say an Australian clan wants to verse an American clan, if both sides have a ping of around 200 over in Austria, it would remove the slur of the 'ping bias', which I feel is a major roadblock for uniting trem players for international competition

I actually like that idea, it'd definately help with the regions around the world.

Now about activity. The thing is, there are clan matches that happen, they just aren't posted about. If people just post about them, others will hopefully follow suit and we could start seeing clan matches happen more frequently.

[Ryanw4390]

1) This is similar to the "Rank which players are better than the other " threads, and they die quickly/get ripped apart, with good reason.
2) With everyone making different lists, there is not only no consensus, but a bunch of unbiased opinions floating around that doesn't do anyone any good and are likely to make flame wars.
3) There is no concrete record of "matches" (arena-zone is not b/c of lack of use) Also, some clans have not had matches, or even scrimms, and others find it difficult to actually have matches.

I suggest you check out the link I posted to the RS rankings. To address your first point, ranking clans is different from ranking players. Clans would be ranked based on the matches they play with each other, players are NOT ranked based on the 1 on 1 matches they play against each other. Thats where the difference would be. With your second point, let me again suggest you check out that thread. They do not allow flaming on the topics or allow others to refer to another person's rankings in their topic. Concrete matches are very easy to organize. Just make a demo of the match beginning to end...not that hard...

The thing is, its not a question of whether or not this will work, its whether or not we will take the effort to make it work, and the thing is, this takes basicially no effort, people just need to post about the clan matches they have to start things off...

[Kobrakai]

Now about activity. The thing is, there are clan matches that happen, they just aren't posted about. If people just post about them, others will hopefully follow suit and we could start seeing clan matches happen more frequently.

Ah, there may well be clan matches. But they are isolated their sections of the world, and where exactly are you proposing that they be posted? Also, international clan matches at servers where both clans have an equal ping, of say, 160, would not work, considering both or one of them would have an issue with playing at a ping they aren't used to (as opposed to their local servers), and are more likely to forgo the match.

We agree, it is important if you want to organize a database of clans to get the ball rolling, the hard part is exactly HOW it can be feasibly done.

[Ryanw4390]

How is easy. Just let people post clan matches that they do have and for the ranking topic just make it a sticky with the first post being some rules about the topic or whatever. It's that simple. Of course some people will not like it, some will. Those who don't just can ignore it and use an alternative system to ranking clans, but this system is proven to be reliable, and eventually I think it will become accepted because after awhile there will be clans that are clearly superior and recognizable for their success as a clan.

[Kobrakai]

I suggest you check out the link I posted to the RS rankings. To address your first point, ranking clans is different from ranking players. Clans would be ranked based on the matches they play with each other, players are NOT ranked based on the 1 on 1 matches they play against each other. Thats where the difference would be. With your second point, let me again suggest you check out that thread. They do not allow flaming on the topics or allow others to refer to another person's rankings in their topic. Concrete matches are very easy to organize. Just make a demo of the match beginning to end...not that hard...

I did check the link out. First off, on the Trem forums, it is like an unspoken elitist rule: don't post this player/clan/group/whatever is better than the other without official information backing it up. (Same point again: you need activity) Also, this is not the Runescape forums. Maybe I misunderstood your first post; I thought you wanted people to start listing clans now, and IN THIS POST, and I will stick by my claim that that is a bad idea.
And demos? Ok, but posted where? Who will compile all the information? Refs/ Rules? Etc...

[Kobrakai]

How is easy. Just let people post clan matches that they do have and for the ranking topic just make it a sticky with the first post being some rules about the topic or whatever. It's that simple. Of course some people will not like it, some will. Those who don't just can ignore it and use an alternative system to ranking clans, but this system is proven to be reliable, and eventually I think it will become accepted because after awhile there will be clans that are clearly superior and recognizable for their success as a clan.

I understand completely: a list based on match records, stickied, then people add info and opinions to that, and it is updated based on matches.

I still think it will not work here, for reasons previously stated.

[Ryanw4390]

Maybe I misunderstood your first post; I thought you wanted people to start listing clans now, and IN THIS POST, and I will stick by my claim that that is a bad idea.
And demos? Ok, but posted where? Who will compile all the information? Refs/ Rules? Etc...

Basically I just posted this to see if this idea could work out for tremulous before anything could happen. Demos would just be posted in their war topic. Each clan would make a seperate topic for the war/clan match they have. And so this specific forum doesn't get flooded with clan match stuff, I think that a seperate forum should be made just for clan matches.

[Ryanw4390]

Who will compile all the information? Refs/ Rules? Etc...

Basically in RS its each clan's responsability to make rules for the clan match/war. Usually, there aren't refs in RS wars, usually its all taken on video with plenty of screen shots and such.

Now for trem, I think that having one neutral observer for clan matches is a pretty good idea, but again, thats just really up to the participating clans.

[Fluxflashor]

Thats the problem, there is no one who is unbiased, most of us that are well known favor certain clans over another, and have been in a clan ourselves. It would be too complicated to set up, making sure everything was unbiased.

[Kobrakai]

Good point Flux.

Besides the multitude of problems, the biggest one with this idea is that I really don't think any more than a handful of people in trem will agree/get behind it.

Tremulous players tend to want things done right.

[janev]

:eek: Is tremulous ready for clanwars and ranking? I've played a few clanwars and they've been fun...

The problem with cw's is making an even playing field... Almost every tremulous server has different buildpoints and different patches installed(homeground advantages). How do you compare american clans and european clans-short of getting everyone together into one room:). Some maps favour aliens or humans. There are many variables to take into account. Human bases can be nearly invulnerable if the humans don't want to give away stage 3 i.e camp. What happens when there is something other then pride at stake? Will we just see clans sitting behind turrets for 45min so their rank doesn't fall? I prefer a good old public skirmish to that type of gaming.

How would you judge ties? Would you base victory on how fast the rounds end(incourage camping)? How many kills each team gets(also incourage camping)? Would you just play each map once and chose the winner based on that(and put up with imbalance in the maps)?

As for match observers I agree it's hard to find unbiased people/ people who wouldn't abuse their power.

[Smokey]

We already have a trem clan league, the ladder will be up soon..


www.tremleague.com

Still looking for refs/admins. Contact me.

Thanks.