A.I., anybody?

[Risujin]

if anyone decides to go about bot development, i'd like to help with the aas part.

Timbo, in his infinite wisdom, removed the bot code from Tremulous in SVN. Before you do anything you need to either add it back or find a way to do without, either way talk with Timbo and decide on how to do it beforehand.

[cyrri]

i know. the 1.1 source has at least the botlib and the server part of botlib trapcalls. all it took to init the lib and load the aas map was to add some traps to g_syscalls.c

if the botlib was removed from svn within one reversion step (and nothing else was done), then it will be easy to restore. thats what svn is good for

one important thing i forgot about the pathfinding issue: all classes have different bounding boxes, so they require seperate aas files, so cached pathes can be used only by the same class... means a lot extra memory and extra cpu time for the server :/

[vcxzet]

i know. the 1.1 source has at least the botlib and the server part of botlib trapcalls. all it took to init the lib and load the aas map was to add some traps to g_syscalls.c

if the botlib was removed from svn within one reversion step (and nothing else was done), then it will be easy to restore. thats what svn is good for

one important thing i forgot about the pathfinding issue: all classes have different bounding boxes, so they require seperate aas files, so cached pathes can be used only by the same class... means a lot extra memory and extra cpu time for the server :/

plus you dont need ai for a multiplayer game
( I know even the most crappy ai implementation would be smarter than some human players ; sad )

[Baxter]

As I see it the builder could be set out like an rts ai the dretches,goons,mara's,basi and tyrants like standard q3 bots but then you must take the 2ndary attacks and wall walking

[floodbud]

Maybe we aren't understanding this.  Any Tremulous AI would be largely ignored, because Tremulous plays best as a multi-player game.  The point would be to create some bots and customizable scenarios so that the noobs could work themselves up to pro without being kicked from 83 servers first.  I remember how difficult it was to get to pro when I started.
 But if anyone is a super-genius and wants to take it up to the level of campaign-style bots that act like real players, go ahead.
 For now, the best way to do it is to split the labor.  Since no one has any better suggestions, here is how we will split the AI programming, for all those interested.  By the way, alien AI will be much harder, which is why it takes up the bulk of the programming.

(Divided by month of birth):
 January: Dretch AI
 February: Human Lucifer Cannon AI
 March-April: Basilisk AI; great programmers, add Adv. Bassy AI
 May-June: Goon AI and Human close-range weapon AI
 July-August: Adv. Goon AI
 September-October: Maurauder AI; just add a little lightning for Adv.
 November: Tyrant
 December: Human long-range AI
 :roll:
Good luck, everyone!
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Floodbud, owner of the 7.65 foot Tyrant jump

[Kaleo]

And how hard would bad AI be to make?
And it wouldn't be that bad, compared to all the Unnamed Players.
In fact, in some areas they would be better. (Aim, for example)

and names. Bot 1 is better than UnnamedPlayer

[floodbud]

By the way, I'm pretty busy most of the time, anyone want to head up the AI project?  We would all send in our code to you.  I'll approve you if you post a good reason on this thread.  Not like I'm the master of the world or anything, but someone has to choose a leader.

Hey, good luck, anyone interested.

__________________
Floodbud, owner of the 5.87 foot Tyrant jump

[Ksempac]

Yeah sure, a guy with 16 posts on the forum with visibly no idea how AI work and who is 2 months late before even planning anything (may i recall you January was 1 month ago ?) is definitly the guy i would choose as a team leader. :roll:

floodbud, McArtman, coding an AI is NOT easy. It s a whole area in computer science. And Tremulous has a lot of additionnal difficulties. You wont get AI for Trem, it s not worth it (as you said it wouldn t be used much). Get over it and stop making useless posts.

[floodbud]

:evil: Ksempac, we don't need your pessimistic tongue-waggling.  The poll says that most people agree, good Tremulous AI is possible.  If you don't want to do it, you don't have to try.  The rest of us, who can see how it would work, will continue.
 Your discouraging remarks will never do any good, and are just a waste of space.
 And as for January, you must have no idea how the forums work or something, because you forgot to read the part where I clearly stated that the workload is split based on month of birth.  For example, if you were born in January, than you would do the January section.  If you need more examples, show this to your three-year-old sister and ask her.  Seriously, get your head in the game.
  I am not running for team leader! :x I already explained that!  I am only looking for someone to head it up.  EASY job, team leader, just look at code scripts sent to you, choose the best from each category, compatibilize them (as far as variables, etc.), and throw them together as a mod.  I'm still looking for candidates.
 I'm aware that Tremulous AI would be very difficult to do.  I am not looking for perfect, smarter-than-human AI, only something sketchy for target practice and strategy development.   It doesn't need to be perfect AI!.
 All right, everyone interested keep up the good work.  It can definitely be done.  Go for it!
 And everyone else, shut up.
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Floodbud, owner of the 18 foot tyrant jump

[Shadowgandor]

I think it would be best to start with the human A.I., because that's possible to program. I have 0 programming skills (yet) and can't help you with this though i suggest that starting with one side first will make things easier. I just feel srry for the dretches who walk upon an A.I. controlled md user...

[E-Mxp]

I agree with you floodbud. I see great potential in this mod. It would help beginners with training(cause it was supposed to a singleplayer option, true?) I only fear that people will hack it and use it in a server as a aimbot. If I had knowledge programming I would volunteer to help making this mod, but tobad I don't have this skills. (also add different difficulty levels like Easy, Normal, Hard)
Please, make this possible!

[Ksempac]

The poll says that most people agree, good Tremulous AI is possible.  

Yeah sure. If the poll filled by random users of this forum (with unknown programming skills) say that programming a good AI is possible, that must be true. What i see is that people who knows what they are talking about (vcxzet, Risujin,...) are all saying that this is way too hard to be worth it.

And if you want me to show you one more proof that you dont know what you re talking about :

Dividing work by saying "each coder will do one class" is DUMB.

AI has several generic functions : Path-Finding, Aiming, etc... So many AI can share a lot of generic code.
For example : A close-range weapon AI would have the same path-finding as the long-range one or a lucy one (btw why did you separate that one ?). A Tyrant would have quite the same , you would only needs to remove use of ladders.
On the contrary, you re saying "everyone will make a path-finding algorithm for each class, because doing the same thing 11 times when there are only 3 or 4 different algorithms is the best way to do things"

A smarter way to do it would have been :
"i will do the generic path-finding algorithm for humans, you will do the special path-finding for wallwalkers, etc..." Although i suspect we could even have only one algorithm by implementing waypoints of differents values "walkable" "wallwalkable" "ladder" etc...

Understand me well : I would LOVE to have AI in Tremulous so that i could show it to people without Internet access or play in LAN with some friends without needing 16 computers in the same room.
But, as a programmer i see far too much difficulties for that.

[janev]

Afaik the trem devs have said THEY won't be coding an AI system for trem but that if somebody is willing to code it they will have a look at it and maybe add it into trem. Unless one of the people here asking for it steps up and codes it and submits it to the devs it won't get implemented.

[floodbud]

Sorry I got mad at you ksempac.  I see what you're saying now, except I still firmly believe that good tremulous AI is possible.  If you can't understand the programming part, that's your problem, not mine.  Personally, I know several programming languages well, and I may tackle some AI work myself over the summer.  And you still don't seem to understand that the AI doesn't need to be perfect.  It could be as drunken, imperfect, and retarded as possible and still be a perfect way for noobs to work themselves up to pro.
I also understand the worry about players using a hack like this to really mess up internet servers.  This problem is solved with imperfection as well, because the AI will be very stupid, and if anything, just feed.
Again, it just needs to be adequate enough to provide skills like goon-dancing and targeting.
Time is not an issue here.  If it takes years to do this, (1) it will be worth it, and (2) it will just be for fun and something to do.  We don't need halo-standard AI or anything.
I still encourage anyone with appropriate skills to work out algorithms such as the ones ksempac mentioned, and someone to volunteer to head up this project.

P.S. The AI should probably be worked out initially to work for ATCS, bells and whistles like ladders and wallwalking can be done later.

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Floodbud, owner of the 2 foot tyrant jump

[kevlarman]

I still encourage anyone with appropriate skills to work out algorithms such as the ones ksempac mentioned, and someone to volunteer to head up this project.

there are very few people with the appropriate skills, and even those who have those skills would have trouble writing an AI for tremulous because of the large time investment involved, you aren't going to find someone who can do this by posting a forum thread, because if a person had the time, the knowledge, and the interest in undertaking such a project, they would already be working on it.

[holyknight]

just get some slaves and make them play trem with you everyday

[Nagato]

The thing about AI is that they are going to be very very very stupid if we try to to put it on a game like this.  There are going to be two modes: Suicide run, which is really no better than the usual feeders. OR we have ones that camp a base for the whole game, and we don't need more of that. Human's movement will most likely walk in the middle of the hallway, and though doors towards the alien base no matter what besides firing on targets that they come across accidentally., even if there is no alien base.  Aliens same thing, but they wont be wall climbing or doing fancy wall maneuvers.

[vcxzet]

too much talk no work

[Risujin]

too much talk no work

How many people on this forum actually do work?

[floodbud]

I understand that very few people are the kind of people that would work on this.  Believe you me, I know enough programming languages to know the difficulties of AI programming.

Finally someone gets it.  Thank you Nagato!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Tremulous AI would be very stupid.  That's the point.  It would be for TARGET PRACTICE as I have said many, many, many times.  It wouldn't have to be intelligent at all.  I just want a bit of training for n00bs to come about.  It wouldn't be aimbots, and ideally only the server could institute it.  That way there would be no cheating on well-meaning servers.

Plus, some algorithms (most for the humans) could be cut-paste from machinegun turrets.  The way they work is ideal:  They swivel/aim slowly and shoot fast.  If humans used this, it would be totally fair.  As for the aliens, basically aimbot code could be used except the aliens would move very slowly to make it fair.  See what I mean?

As for Risujin's comment, I appreciate the pointless pessimism.  I will try to tackle some of this myself over the summer but I will suck at it alone.

___________________
Floodbud.  Owner.

[lfs_id@yahoo.com]

hey, why they say that tremulous is a bias to humans? the developer "maybe" thought of that already... i think no game is bias to 1.. or watever.. the point in tremulous is, 1 human, 3 aliens i think that was there point of this game.

In AI perspectives:

if there would be AI aliens, this creatures likely knows best of the MAP..
[3 warrior aliens + 1 builder] x human, this [3+1] would be better to go out rooming around as a group, protecting the alien builder, AI making is very hard, it is very hard, not very very hard, but just very hard, get my point, having intelligent bots is not impossible at all.

The MOD they say about Troopers/Star ship troopers they say? maybe it would be cool, if that would be, 1 vs 1 would do.

C'MON NUGGITS, HIT THAT ALIENS IN THE HEAD!!

[floodbud]

:-? I don't quite get your response Ifs_id.  And please keep the reply to the thread topic.
In AI, there would be no builders:

FOR THE LAST F***IN TIME, Tremulous AI would be TARGET PRACTICE, NOT SUPREME AMAZING GENIUS AI!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you.

And there is definitely no bias in Tremulous .  The better player wins, regardless of team.

__________________
Floodbud aka opwn3nt

[Nagato]

Regardless if we can or can not make AI, its is completely true that NO one is going to make a "smart" AI like DOOM 3, or the news and best FPS game to date.  Go play some StarCraft/ Brood War, and go play with the computer, you will find that there will happen here if we try...maybe even worse.

[lfs_id@yahoo.com]

Yes no one will make a F@#<!NG good AI because no one puts $ to it. Make an Amazing AI for what? enjoyment?happiness?famous? somebody will spend time for nothing. no!!!! cut the crap just play tremulous w/ or w/o AI its still the game that matters.

You know guys, what ever war you do in the forum, GM/Game Author of this game will just laugh at you.. just play the game instead, be happy for what it have and dont have. the thing iv said above was just my "VIEW" some idea.

[Baxter]

as I under stand it the human ai would be simple to code for the non building part, the selection of starting weapons/alien could be like in the Quake III Mod Urban Terror or the Soldier of Fortune II bot mod,they a bit like CS have a weapons selection system no buying,that could be implemented for class or weapon selection, going to the armoury would be hard (I think),then you would have to implement the ai for attacking/feeding, which might be hard,but the build system would be very very hard.

[Raytray]

You don't really need a build bot.  If you're going to practice, use layout and give both of your a base or so.

I'd like some target practice.

[E-Mxp]

Idea: make training server and make the bot human. all people who join the server must join aliens and try to eat the bot. but make hummie huge and give him 5000 health or somthing.
It would be fun to have a End boss!!!!!
Make him move slow. How more people connect how powerful it will become
All on Saturday night END BOSS FIGHT!!!!
28 aliens attacking huge human LOL

[floodbud]

Finally some positive input.  Thank you.

Ifs_id, of course there is no pay for this (*although some sites try to sell Tremulous).  We work on the same principle as Linux:  To put in what we can for the common good.  If we fail, we lose nothing.  If we succeed, then we gain some amount of limited fame, many happy players, and some degree of self-satisfaction.  If nothing else, we do it because it's there.

Baxter, finally you see my dream.  There would not need to be any builders; they don't provide very exciting targets.  Remember, this would be solely for very bored people without an internet connection, or noobs working themselves up to pro, or for modders who want to test their mod and can't do it alone (i.e. need other players to be able to stage up).  I know raytray25 said the same thing (& t/y) but I just wanted to confirm it.

E-Mxp, sounds like fun, but not quite what we're focusing on.  Maybe you can do that with the template the rest of us provide.

_______________________
Floodbud, Owner.

[E-Mxp]

E-Mxp, sounds like fun, but not quite what we're focusing on.  Maybe you can do that with the template the rest of us provide.

Sorry, I don't know how to do this kind of stuff. Just hoping somebody els will.
//Idea: Less hard to do(??) Give Human bot 1hp!! :granger:s would try to spit at it Battle[/size]Granger[/size]Galore!!![/size]

[floodbud]

Apology accepted .
Like I said, I'm just going to focus on general AI, and strictly that, without going deeper into Trem code.
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Floodbud