Switching from Windows to Linux

[Diggs]

This is not a request to be flamed, or get into an OS war, but to really get some questions answered.

I have worked with DOS since 2.xx and all Windows versions through the years.  (I even have some experience in Solaris and Mac OS 10.)  I am fluent in Basic, Fortran and RPG.  I have tried several flavors of Linux over the years and still even had a copy of Mandrake on an older machine of mine.  I figured since I build up older machines and give them to people that cannot afford them, I should look at using Linux instead of WinME which is getting very outdated.  (I have an old site license for WinME.)  I have used Windows as that is what I am comfortable with and can just do things instead of looking at directions/instructions on how to do it.

So, I pulled an old Petium III 700 off the self and install a copy of Ubuntu 6.06 (user friendly by all acoounts).   After a flawless install where I have to do almost nothing except decide on a user name and root password, I try to install a network printer.  I choose "Network" and "JetDirect" and the next thing it does is ask me the name (?).  Name of what?  The printer is on a HP JetDirect.  What name and syntax is it asking for?  Why can't I browse the network, find it and double click to install it.  Why is there no help option?  What am I missing?  Hmmm-

OK, on to the Internet.  Firefox detects everything and poof, I am on the net.  Great!  I decide to try an .mp3 off my website that I had recorded.  No luck.  It uses Movieplayer, but needs a decoder.  Hmmm?  What's that all about?  I look around the net and they say one of the more popular players to use is XMMS, so off to their site. Hmmm-  There is no download with a double click to install.  They say I need to install and compile a series of libraries.  (I remember this from before.)  Arrrru?  What?  Dependencies are not handled automatically?  According to XMMS, I have to install and compile ALSA, Esound, Mikmod, Ogg Vorbis, and Open GL.  Granted, some of these may already be on the machine after installation of Ubuntu, but how would I know which?  Why aren't they detected?

My choices to the XMMS download are a .gz and a .bz2.  And I would know how to use which one?  I choose .gz.  It downloads in archive Manager, then sits there in a window.  No directions.  No description on the window as to what I have open.  Hmmmm-  I choose "Extract" and I get a tarball in my tmp folder.  And I do what with that?  Double clicking bring the message it cannot be displayed.  Hmmmm-


Then there is
/configure
make
make install

(Huh!?)

As well as a ton of other command line stuff.  What's that all about?  I thought the days of Linux command line are over.  Again, Hmmm-

I tried to do two things and was stymied in confusion by both.

Now there are those that are going to say "What a total noob."  And with Linux, you would probably be correct.  Please, don't you look like a jerk, save the flames.  But it is because of Linux that I am a noob.  I am considered extremely advanced with Windows and Windows networking.  I would like nothing more than to be comfortable with all aspects of Linux, but they make it so convoluted and difficult to work with.  Mac OS 10 is different from Windows, but I don't fight it like I do Linux.  I read so many articles of people predicting the rise and eventual popularity of Linux compared to Windows.  I truely think they are dreaming based on what I see.

Now I please ask the diehard Linux users not to go off the deep fanboy end of things defending their OS of choice, but to rationally explain to me why I should continue to fight and struggle Linux installations that I can see no benefit to.



Diggs

[David]

never install stuff off the website unless you *have* to have the latest version the day it comes out.
for xmms do 'apt-get install xmms' or use synaptic (nice front end)
and the mp3 support isnt there by default, as its not GPL.
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper has a how-to for everything, including installing every codec ever in one go. (except WMV)

hope this helps.

[Taiyo.uk]

This is not a request to be flamed, or get into an OS war, but to really get some questions answered.

Good luck with that

I'll try to answer the parts that I can....

OK, on to the Internet.  Firefox detects everything and poof, I am on the net.  Great!  I decide to try an .mp3 off my website that I had recorded.  No luck.  It uses Movieplayer, but needs a decoder.  Hmmm?  What's that all about?

There are patent issues surrounding shipping MP3 decode/encode software in binary form. You need to install these separately. This goes for DVD playback too - you need to install the CSS cracker. Google for libdvdcss for this.

I look around the net and they say one of the more popular players to use is XMMS, so off to their site. Hmmm-  There is no download with a double click to install.  They say I need to install and compile a series of libraries.  (I remember this from before.)  Arrrru?  What?  Dependencies are not handled automatically?  According to XMMS, I have to install and compile ALSA, Esound, Mikmod, Ogg Vorbis, and Open GL.  Granted, some of these may already be on the machine after installation of Ubuntu, but how would I know which?  Why aren't they detected?

WTF? Ubuntu doesn't have XMMS packaged?
XMMS is similar to WinAmp classic.

My choices to the XMMS download are a .gz and a .bz2.  And I would know how to use which one?  I choose .gz.  It downloads in archive Manager, then sits there in a window.  No directions.  No description on the window as to what I have open.  Hmmmm-  I choose "Extract" and I get a tarball in my tmp folder.  And I do what with that?  Double clicking bring the message it cannot be displayed.  Hmmmm-

.gz and .bz2 are extensions for Gzip and Bzip2 respectively. These are two file compression systems, bzip2 is preferred by most nowadays. Were the files called XMMS-[something].src.tar.bz2? These are often source code tarballs and need to be compiled. I'd try looking for a packaged ubuntu version. I'd be surprised if there isn't one out there...

Then there is
/configure
make
make install

(Huh!?)

This is the normal sequence of commands to install software from source code. The ./configure runs a script to generate makefiles, then make and make install build and install the software.

Don't worry, these l33t 5k1lz0Rz will come in time

As well as a ton of other command line stuff.  What's that all about?  I thought the days of Linux command line are over.  Again, Hmmm-

Heh, people wish....

I tried to do two things and was stymied in confusion by both.

I started with mandrake 8.0 - I had to type commands just to mount a CD-ROM or a floppy disc. Very kinky.

Now there are those that are going to say "What a total noob."

 
!mute !kick !ban

There is indeed a small but noisy minority in the "holier than thou" camp, just !kick them on sight...

And with Linux, you would probably be correct.  Please, don't you look like a jerk, save the flames.  But it is because of Linux that I am a noob.  I am considered extremely advanced with Windows and Windows networking.  I would like nothing more than to be comfortable with all aspects of Linux, but they make it so convoluted and difficult to work with.  Mac OS 10 is different from Windows, but I don't fight it like I do Linux.  I read so many articles of people predicting the rise and eventual popularity of Linux compared to Windows.  I truely think they are dreaming based on what I see.

Linux is still harder to use than windows in many areas. It's been five years since I ditched windows all together, and that statement is still true for the casual desktop user, even though each of those years was meant to be "the year of the Linux desktop".

Now I please ask the diehard Linux users not to go off the deep fanboy end of things defending their OS of choice, but to rationally explain to me why I should continue to fight and struggle Linux installations that I can see no benefit to.

I know how you feel. Personally, I'd use both (dual boot or something) and migrate from one to the other in stages. It was nearly two years from the point that I first installed Linux (and thought "this is crap!") to the point that I had no reason to keep windows.

The two systems are still very different, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. I had to do allot of penguin wrestling in the early days too, but that was because I was a n00b.

windows -> linux still isn't something that happens overnight, and the advantages of windows -> linux didn't become apparent to me for some months. May the penguins be with you.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/ - good place to ask questions without being flamed

[Diggs]

Two great replies.  I'm off to a good start.  Thank you gentleman.

Like I said, I would like nothing more than to be comfortable with Linux and able to support it as easily as I do Windows.  I have tha advantage of running multiple machines here so that I don't even really have to dual boot.  I can set Linux up on one (or several) machine and work through one task at a time until I'm comfortable with most issues.

Thanks for getting me pointed in the right direction without the chest thumping and rise in testosterone.


 Diggs

[vcxzet]

you lose

[Taiyo.uk]

you lose

Please do not turn this thread into a flame-magnet.

[Smokey]

Automatix works for a few things, otherwise use apt-get.

[kevlarman]

Automatix works for a few things, otherwise use apt-get.

automatix is a bad idea (it screws some things up so badly that some people will refuse to help you when they hear that you installed it), easyubuntu at least installs only debian packages (which makes it easy to undo if it causes issues, though it shouldn't) and leaves sources.list untouched if you ask it to, so it's a better solution.

[Diggs]

you lose

No, actually you do.  You have shown us what a loser you are.  You cannot even constructively participate in a clearly defined discussion.  You can't even keep your mouth shut for that matter.  I actually get some very good discussion from people that know what they are talking about and then you have to show us your stupidity.  (Shaking head sadly....)

@Smokey-
Another tool for the toolbox.  Looks interesting.  Works for Ubuntu 6.06 I see.  I may have to give it a try.  Thanks.
@edit - and thanks Kevlar, now I have something else to consider.

I don't meant to make this a Linux 101 class, but it is a chance to at least get some pointers and direction on what to pursue next.



Diggs

[vcxzet]

you lose

No, actually you do.  You have shown us what a loser you are.  You cannot even constructively participate in a clearly defined discussion.  You can't even keep your mouth shut for that matter.  I actually get some very good discussion from people that know what they are talking about and then you have to show us your stupidity.  (Shaking head sadly....)

Diggs

Heh Coming from someone signing his posts as Diggs
in an internet forum even if the name appears next to his post ....
plus you do realize this is not linux support forum. I know you will say off-topic and some other bla bla
but .... you would get better support in a linux support forum
you could even try ubuntu forums
ubuntu irc channels
I didn't want to call you n00b but indeed you are

[maci]

Just RTFM.
We can't be arsed teaching anybody to walk.

[jhaa]

This is not a request to be flamed, or get into an OS war, but to really get some questions answered.
...
Now I please ask the diehard Linux users not to go off the deep fanboy end of things defending their OS of choice, but to rationally explain to me why I should continue to fight and struggle Linux installations that I can see no benefit to.
...

This is clearly an attempt to start a flame war, please lock.

[NiTRoX]

I think the best linux distro yet will be ReactOS. Not saying anymore..just chec it out yourselves

[David]

Just RTFM.
We can't be arsed teaching anybody to walk.

Please do use 'we' to imply you are talking for the majority of people, when all you want to do is flame.

and jhaa, how is this an attempt to start a war? He was just asking for help.

Didn't your parents ever teach you, If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

[Diggs]

I sign my name Diggs, because that is how it appears in-game.  I can't make my name appear that way on the side bar.  Is vcxzet the way your name appears in-game?  (It may be but I have never seen it.)  It is a name given to me in college as a heavy machinery operator that I still use once in awhile.  

Maci - based on how many posts you have, it appears you cannot be "arsed" to do a whole lot of anything, much less help someone.  I have read allot of the manual.  I have fought with the manual and continue to do so.  I was asking those that had been there before me for reason and encouragement to continue to do so or a better direction to take as obviously I am not the first one to make the switch.  Even writing HTML from scratch appears easier at this point.  They have at least pointed me towards where I could get answers, something you could not be troubled to do.

I ask it in this forum because, by now, more than a few know me and this forum represents many distros and at least three OSs.  And jhaa, what is so clear about an attempt to start a flame war here?  I spent the last week on and off and all of yesterday wrestling with Linux issues so I ask them here and you assume it's a flame war.  Get a clue please.

And to those that posted with genuine answers to my request for help.  Thank you!

I have never particiipated in a more negative and juvenile forum in my life.  Why so many think their snide and rude remarks are cute or appreciated I'll never know.  I'm sure it is because of their age, but they don't need to show their immaturity daily.  There are also those that are young here that have a grip on life and it shows.

Without my morning coffee I tend to rant so I am off to brew a pot.

Thanks to those that have helped and I have pity for the clueless ones.


Diggs

[Taiyo.uk]

This is all rather disappointing. There could have been a sensible discussion here.

[vcxzet]

Just RTFM.
We can't be arsed teaching anybody to walk.

Please do use 'we' to imply you are talking for the majority of people, when all you want to do is flame.

and jhaa, how is this an attempt to start a war? He was just asking for help.

Didn't your parents ever teach you, If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.

sometimes you need to say the truth and truth hurts most of the time

[David]

Why are you posting here?
If you didn't care about this thread, you would ignore it, and you don't want to help, so that can only mean you like belittling other people to make up for you own failings. You're just as bad a belier13, if not worse.

Obversely you have nothing nice to say, and its clear you are an attention whore, so I'll change it to, If you have nothing *constructive* to say, dont post.

[Diggs]

This is all rather disappointing. There could have been a sensible discussion here.

Agreed.  I got off-topic when I saw responses I did not expect (before coffee on a Sunday morning).  And I didn't know I had to be in  Linux forum to ask.

Am booting Ubuntu on that machine now.  Thanks for the pointers.


Diggs

[vcxzet]

Why are you posting here?
If you didn't care about this thread, you would ignore it, and you don't want to help, so that can only mean you like belittling other people to make up for you own failings. You're just as bad a belier13, if not worse.

Obversely you have nothing nice to say, and its clear you are an attention whore, so I'll change it to, If you have nothing *constructive* to say, dont post.

I post something then you will change it further?
oh god
plus:

plus you do realize this is not linux support forum. I know you will say off-topic and some other bla bla
but .... you would get better support in a linux support forum
you could even try ubuntu forums
ubuntu irc channels

how this is not constructive
moreover:
belier13 is a deconner I am not

[Caveman]

I still don't get why the proceeding in windows is taken for granted in linux?
How could someone install linux w/o the least bit of knowledge about how the distribution-packages are getting on the box?

[Diggs]

Actually, this is my 7th Linux installation.  I really want Linux to work and keep trying over the years hoping they have made things easier, but it doesn't seem that way.  I didn't fight the Mac OS or IBMs OS2 like I do Linux.  I even remembeer BSD not having some of the issues I am experiencing.


Diggs

[gareth]

ah, linuxland, where simple questions result in flame wars over the best brand of software to do every possible task, except the one you want to complete.

[daenyth]

I know the answers to your questions if they haven't been posted already.. but to be perfectly honest I'm too lazy to type them out. However, I would highly recommend using the forums and wiki on http://ubuntu.com
google.com of course, perhaps for "ubuntu guides" or
"switch from windows to linux"
To the best of my knowledge, guides exist for all of what you asked about.

http://linuxquestions.org as another person mentioned is a great resource. I've also heard people swear by searching google groups. Try those, you should find anything at all you need at least 90% of the time.

I don't use ubuntu personally at the moment but I do have a little experiance with it, try the synaptic package manager. It's quite good. Many things are installed by default, check in there and in the menus. Ubuntu is an excellent choice for a linux first-timer (or someone who doesn't want to be hardcore about it). It definitely has THE best support of ANY distro out at the moment.


Good luck with the switch! And perhaps in time you can learn the beauty of CLI. I personally find it better for so many tasks, both everyday and administrative, for various reasons.

[TinMan]

Automatix doesn't help you at all, it does the work for you and then you're left with no knowledge of what it did or how it works. It's best to read into things that you want to do with Linux and what other users do.

Here are some links to help you with Ubuntu:
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Edgy
http://monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing.html
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
http://www.debuntu.org/
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/

[Diggs]

Thanks for the pointers guys.  The reason I asked was because there is so much info out there, others that have been there before me can point to what they considered some of the best places to go.

I continue to be frustrated with many things that I take for granted in other OSs like-
-One click to download and install most software (whereas tarballs continue to frustrate me with each one it seems having a different install procedure).  Even though I was/am fluent in several computer languages, command line stuff died many years ago and I don't miss it.
-Compile?  Linux users make fun of Windows users having to reboot after some installs, what about this compiling?  (Especially when Ubuntu doesn't come with a compiler installed.)
-.mp3s won't start playing until they finish downloading complete?  What's that all about?  I work with allot of music and .mp3 streaming is a must.  (Except in Linux it seems.)
-.avi files won't play naturally ()
- Networks cannot be browsed to locate and install servers and printers.
-The list goes on....   No need to answer these questions.

It seems I have been trying on and off for a week to get Ubuntu brought up to the point that a Windows OS begins.

I'm sure this post will be a call to arms for many of the Linux zealots, but who really cares.  I have found forums where the participants are thoughtful, intelligent, helpful and considerate.  Those qualities are pretty hard to find here on the Tremulous forum which is why I'm not really stopping by anymore.  I do thank those that took their time to offer help.  They are the exception.


Diggs

[daenyth]

-One click to download and install most software (whereas tarballs continue to frustrate me with each one it seems having a different install procedure).  Even though I was/am fluent in several computer languages, command line stuff died many years ago and I don't miss it.

It depends on the program in question, some people DO provide those installers. Ubuntu has a fantastic package manager system in synaptic, use it by searching for the package you want to install, and then install it. It will do all the deps for you.

-Compile?  Linux users make fun of Windows users having to reboot after some installs, what about this compiling?  (Especially when Ubuntu doesn't come with a compiler installed.)

See above comment.

-.mp3s won't start playing until they finish downloading complete?  What's that all about?  I work with allot of music and .mp3 streaming is a must.  (Except in Linux it seems.)

I know mp3 streaming is possible in linux, I'm just not sure which program to use. Try asking another forum or google.

-.avi files won't play naturally ()

To the best of my knowledge, they don't play naturally in windows either. Try using vlc, it's a good player. Noatun also isn't bad.

- Networks cannot be browsed to locate and install servers and printers.

They can, but the only way I've seen to do it is CLI. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a gui way to do it, and somewhat surprised if there wasn't. I'd try google or again, another forum.

-The list goes on....   No need to answer these questions.

I have nothing better to do

[TinMan]

-One click to download and install most software (whereas tarballs continue to frustrate me with each one it seems having a different install procedure).  Even though I was/am fluent in several computer languages, command line stuff died many years ago and I don't miss it.

Double-click on a .deb file or run Synaptic (atl+f2 opens "run" dialog if you don't want to find it in the menu or use a terminal for it)

-Compile?  Linux users make fun of Windows users having to reboot after some installs, what about this compiling?  (Especially when Ubuntu doesn't come with a compiler installed.)

This is actually for security reasons, if the computer is being used in a locked down environment then you don't want a compiler on it, because then any user on the system could compile malicious code on it and attempt to exploit the system.

-.mp3s won't start playing until they finish downloading complete?  What's that all about?  I work with allot of music and .mp3 streaming is a must.  (Except in Linux it seems.)

Use the mplayer plugin for firefox.

-.avi files won't play naturally ()

Easy to install the codecs for it, VLC pwnz.

- Networks cannot be browsed to locate and install servers and printers.

"Places" off of the main menu, then click "Network"

Most of your issues would be solved by using Linux Mint, it's Ubuntu but it comes with restricted formats and such pre-setup.

[Caveman]

Most of your issues would be solved by using Linux Mint, it's Ubuntu but it comes with restricted formats and such pre-setup.

Most of his problems stem from his attitude and ignorance of what he is using and doing. Or to put it plainly: He is using the "windows-way" on a *nix.
That will never do.
If he'd just read the manual instead of trying to learn by doing, he'd be a lot farther.

[Ingar]

Networks cannot be browsed to locate and install servers and printers.

If you use KDE, you can type lan:/ in the location bar to browse the network. In fact it was much easier to get my network laser printer working with KDE than it was with XP (add new local printer port for a network printer, go figure)

If you need a linux geek with a patient ear, you can find me on IRC.
Of course, I hate windows too, but most OS-wars are utterly boring. I would invite everyone to come argue with me, provided you have completed your courses on computer systems, operating system and software design.

They say computers are easy. That is a lie.