Rampage

[n00b pl0x]

that sounds lame. you have bad ideas.

[techhead]

And about your ideas, noobplox I have opinions that I should not share in polite conversation.

[AKAnotu]

does he even have any ideas?
i doubt that he thinks

[n00b pl0x]

well then say them

[ghostshell]

Hi, I thought I would clear some air here. I don't come often to this forum so I didn't know all this discussion was going on.

Rampage is my attempt to solve stale games; when one or both teams are camping. It's by no means complicated or out of this world. And yes, it's based from alienWin/humanWin mods. I used to have similar /callvotes "humansDontCamp" and "aliensDontCamp" but they are back on the design table.

Rampage explained in our forums:
http://dretchstorm.com/node/64

Along with Sudden Death, our server supports a new game mode called Rampage. Currently Rampage must be voted via /callvote, but eventually it will be part of the whole SD + Time limit system. When Rampage is enabled, both teams lose all of their nodes and each player gets full creds or evos. At this point it becomes an elimination game where the last team standing wins the game. Team work wins here.

Some suggestions for improvement given to me:

   1. Rampage only allowed when both teams are Stage 3
   2. Countdown timer after Rampage vote passed to let teams prepare
   3. Eliminate the lower-scoring player from the opposite team when an enemy is killed
   4. Dont let humans repair / alien structures won't heal during Rampage

Please comment about this mod on that url as it's part of my server and it really doesn't belong here.

The other major change on my server is an Anti-deconner feature. With Anti-decon, each builder is the maintainer of the stuff they build. Of course, more logic handles the details, but that's the overall. This is my attempt to solve malicious deconning, which is a rampant problem when you run a large server.

Now I'm working on logic to monitor and punish malicious team-killing. It should be making its way into my server soon.

My mods are attempts to solve the (my) issues of running a large server: Camping / Deconners / Teamkillers / CPU Usage / Network.

About distributing my changes... I never expected anyone to see my disgustingly horrid code. Let me clean up the bugs a bit, add some comments and I'll let you know.

Please keep all DretchStorm mod discussion in our forums, there's no need to pollute trem.net forums with this. Thanks.

[tuple]

You should read these forums a little more if you think discussion of a servers particular modifications would sink to the level of pollution around here

That being said, you are making modifications to tremulous, it seems entirely appropriate to discuss/remark apon said modifications here as well.

[Foobicam]

The other major change on my server is an Anti-deconner feature. With Anti-decon, each builder is the maintainer of the stuff they build. Of course, more logic handles the details, but that's the overall. This is my attempt to solve malicious deconning, which is a rampant problem when you run a large server.

Now I'm working on logic to monitor and punish malicious team-killing. It should be making its way into my server soon.

My mods are attempts to solve the (my) issues of running a large server: Camping / Deconners / Teamkillers / CPU Usage / Network.

Thanks for providing info here and for providing the pointer to the dretchstorm forum.  That does clear things up a bit.

I definitely don't like the idea of tying structures to the builder who created them - there's no way for the builder to go out and fight and be replaced by another builder.   It might work if there were logic that cleared every structure's owner as soon as the owner spawned as a non-builder.  But you still need votes to clear structure owners or designate builders or denybuild to solve griefbuilding.

Retribution is a necessary part of the solution to teamkilling - I don't mind at all being TK'd as long as I get 100% payment in return.   If the TK'er doesn't have enough credits/evos to pay, the victim should still get full credit, the TK'er should wind up with a negative balance, and anyone who TK's someone with a negative balance would receive that amount as a bounty instead of paying a penalty.  I bet that would fix the problem.

[tuple]

If the TK'er doesn't have enough credits/evos to pay, the victim should still get full credit, the TK'er should wind up with a negative balance, and anyone who TK's someone with a negative balance would receive that amount as a bounty instead of paying a penalty.  I bet that would fix the problem.

I bet it wouldn't.  If you want to play on/run FF servers, TKs WILL happen.  A negative balance means the money comes from where at the game end?  I already know what I will do if this is EVER implemented, I will TK all my teamates and then spawn as the builder for the match.  Give them money/evols to start the match ahead of the game and I build so what do I care how much money I have/don't have?

I think people need to stop getting so wound up about unintentional TKs.  You can build all the solutions to "fix" the problem that you want, but none will work.  Why?  Because it isn't a problem per say, it is a natural result of having friendly fire enabled.  If you don't want to suffer the detrimental effects of FF, don't play with FF.

[Foobicam]

I don't follow - retribution (if set at 100%) is a zero-sum game.  If you teamkill a dretch or rifle, they get nothing because they cost nothing.  If you tk a goon, he'll get 3 evos and be able to respawn and get back to goon, assuming you have 3 evos to give up.  If not, the victim is (currently) out of luck.

This proposal would allow the victim to always be put back to his pre-tk level regardless of what the tk'er has.  It wouldn't allow a team as a whole to have any higher resources than it had before the tk'ing, and it wouldn't allow a builder to donate down to a negative balance.

Retribution as it is currently implemented allows aliens to devolve (just as humans are allowed to sell expensive weapons and buy cheaper ones).   Tyrant "A" asks player "B" (who has at least 5 evos) to TK him.  Player B does, losing the 5 evos to A as retribution.  A then respawns and evolves to a lower level, keeping the change.  This proposal would allow the same process except that the TK'er wouldn't need to start with 5 evos.

[Raytray]

I think he means like if everyone is a rifle except for one luci-suit, there is no medi, it is SD, he has five health and there is an arm. TK him and give him 1000 creds.  Or some equivilant.

[tuple]

If the TK'er doesn't have enough credits/evos to pay, the victim should still get full credit

Where would the credits come from?  If the TKer has a negative balance, then the credits have been pulled from?  the air?  This WOULD allow a team to have a negative balance if the majority of the team each individually has a negative balance.  You are doubling the amount of money a team can have, going from a $0 to $2000 limit to a -$2000 to +$2000 dollar limit, per player that is.

One player tks a bsuit.  Bsuit is repayed and purchases equipment.  Next player tk's that same bsuit.  Bsuit is repayed and purchases equipment.  on and on.  Where does this money come from?  How is it reconciled at the end of the game when everyone but one bsuit owes $2000?

If I turret camp and lucy spam the doorway, what do I care if you get TK'd.  You'll get repaid and I likely won't die cause I'm turret camping.  I can then sit and lucy spam the doorway without concern that FF will hurt my team, effectively removing one of the main reasons for FF.

Make it a 0 sum game?  No credit transfer, just compensate for FF?  Then why HAVE FF?

Humans already kill themselves to deprive the aliens of the kill/evol, using either a grenade or lucy.  With your suggestion, humans would tk each other to save those credits cause the TKee would get fully repaid and the broke TKer would just follow with a rifle  Should this take damage into account then?  This is starting to get awfully complicated.

You can't have friendly fire and not have friendly fire at the same time.  At some point you have to decide to take the bad with the good of the current system, or take the bad with the good of a new system.  The current system seems more equitable than any other, particularly with the existing retribution patches.

If FF bothers you that much, I highly recommend you try playing on a non FF server for a week.  It is quite fun and often results in more strategic games, cause humans are less afraid of traveling in tight groups, and the attacking humans don't die as easily cause they've all been shooting each other trying to kill the dretch flood among them.

If you want FF for the realism, I suggest you check out a sims game

[Foobicam]

How is it reconciled at the end of the game when everyone but one bsuit owes $2000?

It isn't.  But all that debt doesn't give the team any more power than it had before the tk's.  There isn't a team strategy that can turn the ability to carry debt into fighting power.

If I turret camp and lucy spam the doorway, what do I care if you get TK'd.  You'll get repaid and I likely won't die cause I'm turret camping.  I can then sit and lucy spam the doorway without concern that FF will hurt my team, effectively removing one of the main reasons for FF.

Good point, although debt limited to 2000 would prevent the spamming from going on very long (from a non-malicious player).  I still think debt could help deal equitably with an occasional accidental TK, serving the same purpose as legal restitution for victims in real life, but I withdraw the suggestion to implement it.  An alternative, putting TK victims in a queue for receiving future credits from the TK'er as they are earned, would require more complex bookkeeping but would eliminate the philosophical objections to debt.

If FF bothers you that much, I highly recommend you try playing on a non FF server for a week.  It is quite fun and often results in more strategic games, cause humans are less afraid of traveling in tight groups, and the attacking humans don't die as easily cause they've all been shooting each other trying to kill the dretch flood among them.

Most servers I play on don't have FF for structures or players, and I much prefer FF for both.  Not for "realism" (there isn't anything very realistic about any of the alien classes) but because it does cause both sides to be more careful in close quarters.  In particular, it discourages dretches from  blocking tyrants with impunity.

[TRaK]

For what it's worth, I like Rampage. It's fun.

[temple]

If you want FF for the realism, I suggest you check out a sims game

FF is good because people have to actually aim instead of pulse or luci spam and pray they hit something.  I've played matches where humans get S2 and just spam pulse everyone instead of trying to aim.  In that case, FF causes them to kill themselves instead of getting cheap kills.  

Not only that, but when I play human, its tempting to just let someone go ahead of me and shoot at the alien coming after them.  Without FF, I can shoot at the 'bait' human and its doesn't matter how well I aim.  That's not fair to aliens.  With FF, the alien has a chance to allow the other team's weakness in aiming being a shield against multiple attacks.  

On aliens, its easy to play a marauder or even basilisks and glance evos by slashing in the way of goon or tyrant when they are fighting.  However, with FF, the marauder would probably die from their teammate and the human won't be 'ganked' as easily.  

Base FF is a must if you ask me.  Its nice that people can't tk the base to grief.  That's very pleasant.  But its frustrating in the course of a grief-free game to attack the human base and have people shooting a luci directly into structures to kill people.  Its cheap and take no skill.  You could make a bunch of specific rules about no base FF except for nades or lucis but that's avoiding the issue.   FF is a lot more balanced than no FF because there a lot of ways to play with less skill when FF is disabled.  

For aliens, base FF is very good for removing stupid building or feeder eggs (which happen a lot).  Also, aliens have to be smarter about where to place structures.  Its easy for acids to block a door, causing a larger alien to not be able to pass it.  I'd rather tk an acid than get killed or get blocked in my own base.  I've seen that happen with tyrants trying to leave an alien base that has a small door.




On retribution, I've haven't seen any server where you get negative credits or credits created to refund a player.  If get tk'd and the killer has no credits/evos...then you get nothing.  If they have some but not the complete amount, you get whatever they have.   The whole credit exploit potential hasn't been realized in my experience.

[tuple]

IMO, FF makes the game less balanced.  Aliens are typically played by more experienced players who are less impacted by FF, added to the fact that aliens in general are less impacted by FF (unless dretch FF is on.)  If someone on an alien team is TKing alot you can just stay away from them.  Little to no worries that someone on the other side of the room is going to try to shoot through you or take potshots at you for fun.

On the human side are less experienced players who are generally more likely to try to shoot through ANYTHING to hit that tyrant, especially when they learn that just hitting the tyrant can get them cooler guns if the tyrant dies!
They are also more likely to be momentarily freaked out by the swarm of wallwalking dretches spiraling in towards them (a particularly dreadful feeling when you just made enough for larmor and a helmet.)  Humans already start at a deficit in that they usually require tight teamwork to win and are populated at least partly with members who are new and don't understand the strategy of the game, or care to play "as a team".

Except in 2v2 to 5v5 games, losing a large alien to TK almost doesn't even bother me.  I can dretch out the evols pretty quickly.  I usually don't evolve till I have points to do it twice when in large games.  That way I can defend base if there is a push and I am killed.

Of course, with FF on as an alien it means that few humans get fully out of base without taking some damage so aliens get an even larger advantage there.

One of my favorite techniques is to jump through the middle of a bunch of humans, giving head shots.  They spin around trying to shoot me and TK each other.  I still get the evol though, cause I did the most damage  The side benefit is that the human team is less trustful of traveling outside of base together, and they can even get mad at each other for the TK!  I on the other hand, I go goon

FF is horribly unfair to humans.  Experienced players like it cause then they don't have to deal with spammed doorways IMO (a sure sign that aliens have camped a team of newb humans in.)  I can't help but wonder if it helps the more experienced of us that likes playing humans look better, I must admit.  Knowing how to fight the aliens 1 on 1 wouldn't look so dramatically good if newb teams could get kills without slaughtering each other.

edit: I mostly mean to say that humans are negatively impacted NOT in the TKs, but in the loss of health.  A naked human that takes a small bit of FF damage leaving base is a one shot kill for a dretch instead of requiring a minimum of 2 hits.  Thats one kill closer to s3 for the aliens, which almost always means the end of the game for humans.

[daenyth]

FF with SKILLED players is a bonus to humans. No, really. It forces large aliens to go one at a time, while humans just spread out and tear him up. If the alien's friend comes in there is a good chance to tk.


Of course, most games are not with skilled people... in that case it does help humans, but you really should not learn to rely on humans tk'ing each other for your final damage.

[tuple]

FF with skilled players means the aliens are skilled too, and don't get sucked into blocking each other or congesting choke points.  Experienced aliens also know to hold back until the human is killed or the other alien attempts to escape, at which point they move in and finish the job.  Skilled aliens wait around the corner (On the inside of the corner) so the injured alien flees around them and the human(s) follow(s) to come face to face with a fully healed alien poised for a HS.  

Skilled humans STILL cause each other damage.  The further from base they are when it happens the less likely they are to return to base.  Aliens damaging each other means they pull back and heal for a short period.

Incidently, aliens without FF STILL should go one at a time, or they will block each other and be easy pickings for the humans.

Additionally, I do not rely on humans damaging each other, but as an alien I certainly benefit from it and as a human I suffer for it.  FF/NoFF does affect the strategies you use though.

FF for skilled humans against noob aliens is definitely a benefit for humans.

[treminator]

Even the mightiest of Tyrants fall prey to a naked MG dancing in between many other Tyrants on FF servers.  1 evo for them, -4 evos for the dead tyrant, and -x evos for the TK'ing tyrant.  Net effect: -4 or greater evos for aliens.

Yes, FF adds a whole new dimension in tremulous strategy. :.

[tuple]

My point is that an experienced team of tyrants knows to back off and let one tyrant take the kill.  No evols lost for tyrant, one more naked marine down.  A very experienced team of tyrants will let the human run amongst them without even attempting to kill them.  I've been accused of running from naked marines like a coward, when I was really fleeing the guaranteed TK if I don't let the mara following the marine take the kill

[Stof]

Even the mightiest of Tyrants fall prey to a naked MG dancing in between many other Tyrants on FF servers.  1 evo for them, -4 evos for the dead tyrant, and -x evos for the TK'ing tyrant.  Net effect: -4 or greater evos for aliens.

Yes, FF adds a whole new dimension in tremulous strategy. :.

We need a comic for that. There's that big room with a scared naked human in the middle and 5 tyrants surounding him. Next panel, the tyrants charge and for the last panel, you see 5 KO tyrants and the poor humans strugling to get out of that mess

[treminator]

We need a comic for that. There's that big room with a scared naked human in the middle and 5 tyrants surounding him. Next panel, the tyrants charge and for the last panel, you see 5 KO tyrants and the poor humans strugling to get out of that mess

I like your style. I'll email Tim on ctrl-alt-del and see if he can whip one up for us.

[Rawr]

FF with SKILLED players is a bonus to humans. No, really. It forces large aliens to go one at a time, while humans just spread out and tear him up. If the alien's friend comes in there is a good chance to tk.

I definitely agree with you there.

[temple]

Humans can tk each other, but really, you can still manage to kill aliens without killing each other completely. I'll luci or flame around teammates because a little splash from a luci is a lot better than a kill for the aliens.  Of course, I'm more accurate than most idiots.  I don't care if someone shoots me, if there is an alien in sight.  I just hate FF when there is no aliens or the alien is dead or someone is just spamming.  

Armor greatly reduces FF, except idiot flamers or fullly charged lucis.  Otherwise, you are good to go with FF on humans.   Aliens, imo, have it harder because a pounce, slash, or chomp is like 100 damage upfront.  No armor mitagation.  

FF is just a challenge to the game.  Without, its way to easy to just rush and spam like idiots.