Whole topic about base building

[venn2001ad]

I admit, I am not that good on actual fighting. And I do enjoy playing RTS occasionally. Thus, the whole "base building and management" aspect of Tremulous was what attracted me to this mod. Some players know me as "the housekeeper". LOL.  However, I did not master this whole base building. I am still in learning phase. So, I decided to post some questions to hear your opinions.

This will a long post, so please bare with me till the end.

Now I do not know how things will change in ver 1.0.1, but from what I read, it seems that base building will be largely unchanged from ver 1.0.0. But please correct me otherwise.

Ok, as far as everyone knows (duh), base is very, very important to both races. In case you are new and clueless (don't forget the manual), it provides following services to players:

(1) Spawn points!! (Telenodes and Eggs; very important!!) They allow you to rise like a Phoenix!!! *dun dun dun* That is, right after you hit a dirt nap.
(2) Defenses!! They keep those precious spawns (and supply stations for Humans) from getting reduced to pile of junk/goo.
(3) Supplies!! (Humans only) Well, duh... ammos and health, remember? (I left out the Booster for Aliens, since it's not really a mandatory like Human Armory)
(4) Upgrades!! (Armory and Overmind) They allow you to purchase better equipments or evolve to beefy creatures.

However, following issues always pop up whenever someone holds a Construction Kit (or be a Grenger, for Aliens), and makes me wonder.

Anyway, here goes. First, the questions:

(1) Should we move base or stay ground?

As most of you know, the starting spot kinda blows for a well oriented defense. Ok, it really depends on the race and map, but it should still be noted. For Humans, I say that if they decide to move base, they should do it as soon as the map starts while the Aliens don't have access to anything stronger... yet. Since ALL (keyword!!!) of Human structures go down while relocating the precious Reactor, it will be extremely dangerous to move while Aliens are hopping around as Maruders and Dragoons. A lone, skilled Dragoon or a small group of cooperating Dretchs/Ballisks/Maruder/whatevers can wreck havok while the reactor is down.

As for Aliens... I'm not sure. Humans can rush in at start, so moving Overmind early can really backfire... Someone suggested building some defenses first to repel the initial rush, and that sounds like a good idea. However, IMHO, later the Aliens move their base, greater the risk of losing, since by that point Humans will be running around with "heavy stuffs". At least, fortunately, removing the old base is snap for Aliens: just remove the Overmind and all the Eggs, and everything else goes BOOM!!

(2) Stay with Machinegun Turrets, or upgrade to Tesla Generator? (Humans only)

For Aliens, no doubt, Acid Tube is best. Sure, some Trappers or Hives here and there is nice, but IMHO, the Tubes give the best "bang for a buck". But let's talk about that some other time. For now, let's look at Humans.

I'm not going to mention names, but I hear this alot when we move to Stage 3 and I'm busy replacing some Turrets with Tesla: "Dude, don't build Tesla. Tesla will get owned."

Hmm... good point. Tesla takes longer to build and repair, requires a Defense Computer, and eats up more Build Points, thus less number of defensive structures in the end. On the other hand, Turrets are cheaper to build, less time to repair, and can have more of them. So, with this logic, Turret is clearly better.

Really? Well, I say it's still all subjective. Cheaper & more =/= Better, you know.

Tesla seems more durable (from observations; correct me if I'm wrong please). And not to mention it deals more damage too. Plus, it doesn't have to turn to aim at its target, so faster response time. And if we have to scatter them around, Tesla seems clearly better. Think about it. Which seem to do better job: 2 Turrets guarding a doorway, or 2 Tesla guarding the doorway?

Of course, Tyrants will still own both of them, but nothing can stop ver. 1.0.0 Tyrants anyway. And let's not forget our nasty little friends Adv Maruders. But since ver 1.0.1 will change great deal about those two Aliens, we will have to see. But I dont think it'll change all that much about the issue at hand.

(3) Where shall we put these turrets/tubes?

This, by far, is most important question. The placement of the buildings can spell successful repel of enemy attack or a shameful defeat. And this also seems to be the biggest issue among builders of both races.

Of course, there is no such thing as "perfect placement". You put something at somewhere, there will always be a way for your enemy to reach it and blow it up.

Now, the supportive structures (spawns, Reactor/Overmind, and etc) can be put just about anywhere as long as they are hidden and/or well protected. But the question seem to always pop up for defensive structures: The Turrets/Tesla and Acid Tubes.

I actually experimented for quite a some time with this. I tried bunching them up at entrance. I tried willy wiley scattering them out. I tried mixture of two. I even tried forward outposts, in an attempt to put fights away from the main base. I even tried various combinations and formations of turrets/tubes too. I now do have some general idea on what works and what does not, but I first wanna hear your thoughts.

So please reply. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Supa]

(1) Should we move base or stay ground?

One thing I'd like to touch on, as an alien it's getting ridiculously easy to lockdown human relocations when people file in one at a time. Every successful relocation I've witnessed includes the entire human team moving as a single group:

Four humans filing in one at a time versus one Dretch: One very lonely reactor sitting in the corner, four dead humans (not including the poor sap with the ckit ) and one Basilisk.

Four humans with rifles coming in at the same time versus one Dretch: Base relocated, one to four living humans, one dead Dretch.

(2) Stay with Machinegun Turrets, or upgrade to Tesla Generator?

I've found a mix of 2:1 Turrets:Teslas works pretty well. The Turrets weaken most aliens and the Tesla Generators finish them off.

[Edit: Supa versus Sleep dep: Incoherent posts]

[OverFlow]

(1) Should we move base or stay ground?

As most of you know, the starting spot kinda blows for a well oriented defense. Ok, it really depends on the race and map, but it should still be noted. For Humans, I say that if they decide to move base, they should do it as soon as the map starts while the Aliens don't have access to anything stronger... yet. Since ALL (keyword!!!) of Human structures go down while relocating the precious Reactor, it will be extremely dangerous to move while Aliens are hopping around as Maruders and Dragoons. A lone, skilled Dragoon or a small group of cooperating Dretchs/Ballisks/Maruder/whatevers can wreck havok while the reactor is down.

As for Aliens... I'm not sure. Humans can rush in at start, so moving Overmind early can really backfire... Someone suggested building some defenses first to repel the initial rush, and that sounds like a good idea. However, IMHO, later the Aliens move their base, greater the risk of losing, since by that point Humans will be running around with "heavy stuffs". At least, fortunately, removing the old base is snap for Aliens: just remove the Overmind and all the Eggs, and everything else goes BOOM!!

  I think a lot of people don't realize this, maybe because it changed right before the 1.0.0 release, but with the overmind down, the alien structures do not work.  With the OM down, the aliens can not evolve either.  

I think perhaps the only reason moving base is easier for aliens is because most the humans don't have radar, unlike the aliens.  This of course makes it easier for a searching alien to find a newly starting base than a human.

(2) Stay with Machinegun Turrets, or upgrade to Tesla Generator? (Humans only)

For Aliens, no doubt, Acid Tube is best. Sure, some Trappers or Hives here and there is nice, but IMHO, the Tubes give the best "bang for a buck". But let's talk about that some other time. For now, let's look at Humans.

I'm not going to mention names, but I hear this alot when we move to Stage 3 and I'm busy replacing some Turrets with Tesla: "Dude, don't build Tesla. Tesla will get owned."

Hmm... good point. Tesla takes longer to build and repair, requires a Defense Computer, and eats up more Build Points, thus less number of defensive structures in the end. On the other hand, Turrets are cheaper to build, less time to repair, and can have more of them. So, with this logic, Turret is clearly better.

Really? Well, I say it's still all subjective. Cheaper & more =/= Better, you know.

Tesla seems more durable (from observations; correct me if I'm wrong please). And not to mention it deals more damage too. Plus, it doesn't have to turn to aim at its target, so faster response time. And if we have to scatter them around, Tesla seems clearly better. Think about it. Which seem to do better job: 2 Turrets guarding a doorway, or 2 Tesla guarding the doorway?

Of course, Tyrants will still own both of them, but nothing can stop ver. 1.0.0 Tyrants anyway. And let's not forget our nasty little friends Adv Maruders. But since ver 1.0.1 will change great deal about those two Aliens, we will have to see. But I dont think it'll change all that much about the issue at hand.

I'm not really sure how the damage rate of the two compare, but again I think the thinking you mention is another attitude taken from the beta testing.  I believe the tesla damage has increased since then and is now quite a formitable defence.

(3) Where shall we put these turrets/tubes?

This, by far, is most important question. The placement of the buildings can spell successful repel of enemy attack or a shameful defeat. And this also seems to be the biggest issue among builders of both races.

Of course, there is no such thing as "perfect placement". You put something at somewhere, there will always be a way for your enemy to reach it and blow it up.

Now, the supportive structures (spawns, Reactor/Overmind, and etc) can be put just about anywhere as long as they are hidden and/or well protected. But the question seem to always pop up for defensive structures: The Turrets/Tesla and Acid Tubes.

I actually experimented for quite a some time with this. I tried bunching them up at entrance. I tried willy wiley scattering them out. I tried mixture of two. I even tried forward outposts, in an attempt to put fights away from the main base. I even tried various combinations and formations of turrets/tubes too. I now do have some general idea on what works and what does not, but I first wanna hear your thoughts.

My thoughts on defence are pretty simple.  

For humans, you want a very tight and small base that allows the highest concentration of defensive structures possible.  Locations with low ceilings are probably the best, as they severely limit the abilities of most classes to effectively dodge weapons fire.

For aliens, I like to vary it up a bit.  By far the best place for defence is off the wall near doors.  This makes it very hard for humans to just toss a grenade in and destroy everything, or just have one person sacrifice themselves to open the door and have others shoot at the structures.  I usually want to have a hive near each entrance, or on the cieling of the middle of the base to catch those pesky jetpackers.  And trappers can be veeeeeery nice to prevent bsuits from doing anything in your base, just have to make sure they're coming off a wall or low cieling.

[Norfenstein]

(1) Should we move base or stay ground?

Humans either relocate immediately when a map starts or not at all. Basically it comes down to deciding if the distance to your desired base is too far for your team to handle, which I guess means it actually comes down to how much teamwork you can expect. Aliens have a much easier time since it barely matters where their base is, just that they have an overmind present somewhere.

(2) Stay with Machinegun Turrets, or upgrade to Tesla Generator?

It's not the teslas that get owned, it's the defense computer. Yesterday on Niveus I built for aliens until humans got to stage 3 and replaced all their turrets with teslas. I went marauder, killed the defense computer and the game ended. The easy answer is to use both defenses: you'll notice that with only turrets you'll often end up with 6 build points leftover, using a mixture allows you to maximize your resources. Turrets are better (slightly longer range, about 1.5 times more damage when every bullet hits) in places where they don't need to aim and won't damage anything important if destroyed. If you use teslas and turrets together for one spot, put the teslas in front since they're harder to damage with low classes (and have more health) and won't hurt the turrets as much if destroyed. In tight maps where it's possible to completely hide the defense computer you can get away with only using teslas.

(3) Where shall we put these turrets/tubes?

As mentioned above turrets are most useful (almost useless otherwise) when they don't have turn to aim. The biggest mistake I see people making with them is putting turrets too close together. Turrets have a big explosion when they're destroyed and if packed too tightly, taking out one can mean they all go down. You also generally want every one of your vital structures to be covered at least a little by automated defense.
Acid tubes are easy: put them on the ceiling. Basically anywhere they can get a headshot and they're just stupidly effective. If you have a lip obscuring a clean line of sight to a low ceiling, put them there (the prime example being the middle building on ATCS, three tubes behind each of the overhangs leading to the side wings and that base is nigh impenetrable). I've only found trappers to be useful if put in with a cluster of wall tubes over a door in order to stick any battlesuits that try to slip past them. I never use hives: they're more expensive and slower acting than tubes, need a direct line of sight to targets and can only attack one person at a time.

[juice]

i think i have a mini guide on the subject in general discussion somewheres

[Molog]

Human really need to bunker down their base.

The armory and defense computer are easily destroyable because of size and low hitpoints. Two barbs kill armory.

I also think it's a bit too easy to take out reactor when jumping on top of it with alien.

[Catalyc]

*bump*

With all the new players I think this topic might come in handy. Quoting juices building mini-guide:

General building DO's and DON'T's:

DO:
(Human) Be CAREFUL about moving your base  Do not try moving it all at one time unless you have the complete support of your team and in early games this is usually non-practical as your teammates will try to get credits obviously.  It is best to have one builder to stay behind with a guard and the other builder to move the reactor.  This does 2 things:  1) The old base would act as a sort of decoy if an alien attack came and they would be more interested in the decoy base rather than the new one going up or 2)  If your new base gets rushed, you can fall back to the old one and quickly set up again.  Get your teammates to guard the area you're going to build in, and start off intelligently!  Build the reactor first (obviously), a turret, a healing station, and then a spawn.  After this, build an armory and then another spawn.  Why the turret/healing station/spawn?  When I see new people building, often times they will make the armory first and then the spawns.  The problem is the base is horribly vulnerable right then and could be subject to quick work by a few basilisks.  You just need a single turret, a medi station, a spawn, and the cooperation of your team to start off smoothely.  Then you may build an armory and another spawn.
(Alien) For aliens, congested rooms littered with objects make the best types of bases as you can close them off easier with the way alien defensive units work.  Be sure to put your Overmind in a place where humans can not hit from a distance, so check that out before moving it.

(Both) Lay turrets and defensive structures in smart places.  A smart place is not a doorway.  A smart place is away but facing a door way or to the side of one.  Do not block your teammates!  If you must put defensive structures in a congested hallway, always put it to the side.  Also be sure to space them out efficiently.  It might be a good idea to see which ways are easiest to get to your team's base and concentrate a bit more on those points.

DO NOT:
(Both) Try building forward if you are a bit new and inexperienced.  THIS IS NOT NS OR GLOOM!  Maybe in certain situations you build forward to alleviate an easy access way or so, but it is often unnecessary to build multiple bases.  You want to protect your Overmind or Reactor, so you often want most of your resources pointed at guarding it no matter what kind of lead you're in.

(Both, mostly Humans) Clutter your base.  Bad base design simply kills so many games.  Design your base AROUND your reactor, not simply having it there.  Your reactor always comes first, so take care of it.  I mainly refer to Human on this one because Human has many more structures.  Aliens get it a little bit easier because most of their structures are simply defensive.

(Both) Build bases in wide open areas.  This one's pretty obvious.  Make your bases death zones, not fodder![/b].

Section 2 = later maybe