High Ping Noob Problem - A Solution

[Ouranga-thingy]

I still see high ping noobs as being the biggest problem on servers.  Really its a problem in the standard settings on the client.  The client has cl_maxping 800, which is stupidly high.

I set my cl_maxping 250, that way my server list rebuilds very quickly and I only get playable servers in that list. It also removes a lot of the dross.

If the client came with cl_maxping 250 as default we wouldn't have this problem with noobs joining with high ping, and those who know would be able to include higher ping sites in their list if they wanted - but they wouldn't be noobs, now, would they?

Having a default cl_maxping 250 would be a simple noob barrier that would improve the game of Tremulous the world over.  My suggestion is that cl_maxping 250 is default in all future versions of Tremulous.

[gareth]

agreed. 250 is too high tho, maybe 150.

[David]

150!!??!!
That would empty my list a lot of the time.
As would 250...
Just use unlagged and sort by ping and all will be well.

[Henners]

would empty my list completely... damn japan

[Rekov]

Beergarden is about the only server I get decent ping on. We need more West Coast.

OTherwize, the idea sounds pretty good. id say 200 ms

[DjSonik]

Having a default cl_maxping 250 would be a simple noob barrier that would improve the game of Tremulous the world over.  My suggestion is that cl_maxping 250 is default in all future versions of Tremulous.

You forgot about the normal-pinged noobs.

Otherwise, I agree.

[_Equilibrium_]

i would say 300-350 would be a good number. i know a lot of people who play fine at 250 ping.

[TRaK]

I think you would acheive pretty much the same thing by making the server list sort by ping by default. Most noobs will join the servers at the top of the list anyways. It'll also solve the ugly square square square phenomenon.

Also, I always like to see when a server is playing my map, even if i get high ping there, I can still connect and ask for feedback.

[gareth]

I think you would acheive pretty much the same thing by making the server list sort by ping by default. Most noobs will join the servers at the top of the list anyways. It'll also solve the ugly square square square phenomenon.

Also, I always like to see when a server is playing my map, even if i get high ping there, I can still connect and ask for feedback.

i would rather there be a simple drop down box with <all>, 50, 100, 150, etc max ping filters

[Ouranga-thingy]

I think you would acheive pretty much the same thing by making the server list sort by ping by default. Most noobs will join the servers at the top of the list anyways. It'll also solve the ugly square square square phenomenon.

Also, I always like to see when a server is playing my map, even if i get high ping there, I can still connect and ask for feedback.

Auto sorting by ping is also a smart idea, and could be done as well.

Setting default cl_maxping to 250 (or whatever) keeps the high pings out of the list altogether, and allows the list to build in literally a fraction of the time (250/800 is a fraction).

With this default setting we could also have the config option toggle "auto rebuild server list" so it could rebuild automatically every time. At 800 this would be annoying, but at 250 it would actually save me time rather than clicking the command every time and waiting for a long rebuild.

The ugly square square can only be solved by configuring the master server to also not accept that character - whatever it is.  There will always be insecure people who want to be first at something, even if its just a server list, so naming for rank will continue, even if it is just AAAAAAA..... This is where your suggestion nixes that problem.

[Ouranga-thingy]

150!!??!!
That would empty my list a lot of the time.
As would 250...
Just use unlagged and sort by ping and all will be well.

Sure, we all like that, but noobs are noobs dude.  We would all know how to change cl_maxping, and we would all know what it does.

But noobs are too noobish to even know to choose low ping servers - they aren't going to bother sorting for ping or running unlagged. It is easier just to visit them all individually and shoot them with tranquiliser darts.

Join me. Ill do my side of the pacific if you do yours.

And with 250 you'd empty your serverlist?? Man, your interweb tubes must be filled with ebay purchases.  I am in Australia, and I have japanese servers coming in at under 190 ping.  SST, DretchStorm YakNet Lair and BoomBoom #Virginia.USA# all come in under 250, and that last one is about 15,000 km from where I am sitting.

[David]

250 would only empty the list at bad times.
And unlagged is a server mod, nothing for the noob to do, and its going to be in trem 1.2.  Also, trem 1.2 will default search by ping, so problem solved.
And as for the boxes, rich fixed that and the stupid server admins who do that had him burned.

[Ouranga-thingy]

Ok, I tweak the unlagged cvars for my lag. Lag still affects gameplay, regardless of how good custom tweaking for a particular lag is.

Whats this about being burned by insecure admins?

[David]

R1ch modded the master server, so all server with spaces at the front were dropped. (back then they didnt use the boxes).
The problem with this was he didnt tell anyone, or give any warning.
So people went nuts.
Now TJW runs the master server.

[Lava Croft]

R1ch modded the master server, so all server with spaces at the front were dropped. (back then they didnt use the boxes).
The problem with this was he didnt tell anyone, or give any warning.
So people went nuts.
Now TJW runs the master server.

People mostly went nuts because this wasn't the first time R1CH pulled a trick like this out of his skinny ass.

[PHREAK]

Why do people assume that Unlagged fixes the high ping issues?

Believe it or not, it makes it actually worse.

The main problem with high pingers is not warping and the inability to hit them correctly.
It's the additional strain they put on the server.
The higher the clients ping, the more information is processed by the server and more packets need to be resent in order to keep the client in sync with the server and other clients.

While this is expected and accounted for, Q3 starts having serious issues with a client over 250 ping.

Now add unlagged and take into account what unlagged is and you start seeing real ping issues.
In order for unlagged to even out the playing field for the 50 and 350 pinger, it needs to load a lot of processing info to the server thus putting even a higher strain on it.
Unless you are running your server on a silicone valley super computer, chances are you're going to make the game very shitty for everyone on it, once you have 4 out of the 16 clients pinging over 250.
But even if the server has the power to do it, take into account the practical issues that happen.
Instead of being killed 2 feet after running around a corner, now its 10ish.
Unlagged, imo, is intended to even it out for 0-150 pingers without performance nor playability disadvantages. Anything over that and anomalies occur. (around the corner kills, latent damage, ghost damage, etc)

[Nux]

Those damn round the corner kills >.< I hate them more than tele-dretches or missing at point-blank. You feel the relief of having escaped, and then you're killed.

These are some nasty pings you guys are throwing around. 200 or lower sounds more reasonable from my personal experience (though I tend to stick with servers I have a double figure ping with).

[n00b pl0x]

i dont see how taking it down to 250 would help much. that only takes about 5 australian servers off my list.

[Ouranga-thingy]

Damn plox, and here I was focused on creating an idea that was intended to help only you. I failed. Sorry Plox, your connection is just too good for me to offer you any help at all in this regard.

Well, back to the drawing board then.

"Other people? What's that?"

Back to reality....

On those very same Australian servers, there are a lot of people from other countries who jump on with 750 ping.  Usually they know no better -- IOW, are noobs, and often have no English language comprehension. GameArena, in a hyperacute grasp of the concepts of online gaming, has decided that ping limiting of the servers is an offense to the worldwide gaming community. There is one administrator having difficulty assimilating the idea that high-ping noobs who don't understand the language we speak here, or the game we play, are pooching the game for the locals -- many of whom are paying the very ISP fees that support the existence of GameArena itself. Taking the default cl_maxping down to 250 would really clean up the gaming experience for many players.

Even now GameArena has no ping limit, and on two of their three servers they have unlagged running which, as PHREAK has pointed out, is just not good.

BTW, thanks PHREAK for articulating something that I had long suspected, and something that many GameArena players have noticed. I believe your post was instrumental in removing unlagged from one of the servers.

[Ouranga-thingy]

You forgot about the normal-pinged noobs.

I have a fiendish plan for them which involves adding a concealed bittorrent client.

All the clients will participate in a covert bittorrent operation. Their Trem client will download then redistribute all the new maps that are released. Noobs will seed maps at a sufficiently high % of their bandwidth to take their trem ping over 300. This will happen for 50 hours of game time, after which a modal dialogue box appears to tell them how to turn it off.

During the 50 hours of game time, they are forced to watch a series of detailed tutorial demos over and over again, and are not able to join any actual servers because their ping will be too bad to see any in their list.

By this method, noobs will become a natural resource for distributing new maps and making the game better by their absence until they have learnt something. Non-noobs will of course have a way to circumvent the system, but it will be a test of their non-noobishness.

I am, of course, being perfectly serious. We must band together to use every means available to us to rid ourselves of this noob scourge.

Anyone who thinks I am joking will be put in the sewer under Tremor without a construction kit until they promise to take things at face value, or \timelimit 999, whichever comes first.

[LinuxManMikeC]

The solution is sv_maxping.  Server admins should set this to a reasonable value (around 200 - 250) and the laggers won't even be able to connect.  And admins should also kick anyone who starts to lag terribly after they've joined.  Use discretion, but if the game start to lag, take care of the problem, kick highest ping first.  I think some of the suggestions given for the client side would be helpful and should be implemented, but there is a solution, only problem is not enough admins use it.  I'll leave you to guess their excuses.

[gareth]

The solution is sv_maxping.  Server admins should set this to a reasonable value (around 200 - 250) and the laggers won't even be able to connect.  And admins should also kick anyone who starts to lag terribly after they've joined.  Use discretion, but if the game start to lag, take care of the problem, kick highest ping first.  I think some of the suggestions given for the client side would be helpful and should be implemented, but there is a solution, only problem is not enough admins use it.  I'll leave you to guess their excuses.

thats half a solution, the client should also warn the player before he connects to a server that has a higher maxping than they got to it.

[Ouranga-thingy]

The solution is sv_maxping.  Server admins should set this to a reasonable value (around 200 - 250) and the laggers won't even be able to connect.  And admins should also kick anyone who starts to lag terribly after they've joined.  Use discretion, but if the game start to lag, take care of the problem, kick highest ping first.  I think some of the suggestions given for the client side would be helpful and should be implemented, but there is a solution, only problem is not enough admins use it.  I'll leave you to guess their excuses.

"The solution"? There is only one?

Funny... I can think of several possible solutions, but somehow getting each server operator to set their maxping appropriately doesn't sound like any kind of solution at all.  They can do it right now, but don't. Good luck with the fascist dictatorship that will make them all set that cvar appropriately.

Mind you, the suggestion from gareth of including some kind of clientside notification about sv_maxping is useful.  

Why not just add an option to grey out && drop to bottom of list any servers with sv_maxping higher than the client ping?  I dont really see a problem with doing that. It could default to on and not harm anyone. I could fully see this implemented without too much trouble

Aside from that, another solution raised was simply defaulting to list by ping. That's a good one, but it doesn't address the list build delay.

Limiting default cl_maxping solves the high ping problem, and speeds list rebuild. With that I would like to see an option to rebuild the list every time, so I never miss new servers.

[Coca-Cola]

I keep my max ping at 125... I hate lag.

[player1]

Ditto-ish. If I'm much over a hundred I'll sod off. I look for a ping in the mid-double-digits, and since I have plenty of servers to choose from, I don't have to burden the server to connect. I took five years off from playing online, until I couldn't take dialup even for surfing anymore. Cable modem FTW!

Edit: OK, Plox, now I see what you mean. Hey, Rekov, same town; what kind of connection do you have? I get about a dozen servers with decent ping. s11 (read up on this, though), SST (be aware that admins are having fun here), PC$, OPP, BeerGarden, YakNet, }MG{, and about four or five others. One autodownload I recently got rearranged my servers by ping now! How awesome. Also, as stated on the server thread, there is a new server in Portland, and at least two players co-hosting. That means there are at least four Tremmers in Portland. PM me and we can play. Take care.

[n00b pl0x]

oranga what is a other people? why are you taking this so seriously...so an idiot spends a few minutes lagging around the map before he gets kicked/bored of the lag and leaves. So what? unless the kid has really choppy lag, the lag doesnt help him in anyway, and choppy lag is just funny to watch.

[Ouranga-thingy]

oranga what is a other people? why are you taking this so seriously...so an idiot spends a few minutes lagging around the map before he gets kicked/bored of the lag and leaves. So what? unless the kid has really choppy lag, the lag doesnt help him in anyway, and choppy lag is just funny to watch.

Lol, you think its only one. We sometimes get six or more  400-800 pingers on a server. Clearly many of them have just downloaded the game that week, and have NFI of trem or english.  They run out of base over and over as naked rifle dude, or dretch, don't respond to pleas of "don't feed" and totally ruin the game.

[mooseberry]

I think maybe 200 sounds good. For anyone near the west coast of U.S.A. like California, Oregon, etcetera... I have a server BLOODclankillzone, that should be fast for you guys...

[holyknight]

well i lag as hell in my laptop and i have tremulous only in my laptop... so...

boom