Author Topic: TJW new version of Tremulous (Read 115471 times)

Nux · « **Reply #240 on:** July 19, 2007, 02:56:39 am »

An extreme example of a feature that would help balance the experienced with the inexperienced would be a brain-flash weapon that kills all enemies who see the player who uses it. This would require little skill to use effectively. Though it might help bring the average win to a middle point it would seriously disrupt the game in terms of player disatisfaction.

Games are fun because of the challenge. Making things easier can often mean making things dull. It shouldn't be easy to move a base and it shouldn't be that easy to use a basi (the basi should become effective when you're a trained proffesional).

Quote from: "kevlarman"

Quote from: "Nux"
balance the experienced with the inexperienced players.
i assure you that any inexperienced players get pissed off from the regen and/or turrets long before they have a chance to make any difference in how balance will be.

I haven't yet gotten to complaining about the "regen and/or turrets". These have clear issues that I'm sure you've been complained to about many times before. I'm not sure if I'd be adding anything new by commenting on them.

I may aswell say something now though. Suffice it to say, the turrets are very easy to avoid now. You can be killed easily if you let them stop turning, so you just keep them turning (which isn't too hard) and you're free to frolic in the human base. As for the regen, I'm not sure what you're refering to there. Is it the no heal when om down? Or maybe the turrets regen their hp?

kevlarman · « **Reply #241 on:** July 19, 2007, 03:01:31 am »

Quote from: "Nux"

An extreme example of a feature that would help balance the experienced with the inexperienced would be a brain-flash weapon that kills all enemies who see the player who uses it. This would require little skill to use effectively. Though it might help bring the average win to a middle point it would seriously disrupt the game in terms of player disatisfaction.

Games are fun because of the challenge. Making things easier can often mean making things dull. It shouldn't be easy to move a base and it shouldn't be that easy to use a basi (the basi should become effective when you're a trained proffesional).

what exactly is wrong with balancing out the fact that aliens can move at almost any time during the game with no risk while humans have to risk losing the game before the game even starts to do it? or giving aliens an equivalent to the shotgun (both of them are now an extremely good value for the cost and extremely helpful to the team)

Nux · « **Reply #242 on:** July 19, 2007, 03:14:52 am »

The reasons why aliens can move the base easily are:

This change mainly affects humans as the aliens could always just decon the creep-making structure and the rest of the buildings would pop. The ability to decon remotely doesn't have as much of an affect on them as they could get to new build places quicker than humans could and humans would have a hard time chasing them.

These are also the reasons why egg spam is so much easier than node spam. If you don't like egg spam, why give the humans a super build ability too? Why not just nerf the aliens build ability?

My point about the basi was that it was already effective.. in the right hands. Now you've made it's range longer; it's grab for a longer time and adv basis gas slow people down... that's FAR too much.

temple · « **Reply #243 on:** July 19, 2007, 03:24:14 am »

The Dragoon is already the alien version of the shotgun.

But anyone opposing the new build system is just being a prick. You can't tell me that the new system isn't better in all ways. None of you comments have anything to do with actual building. Which is the point of the system, as well as preventing deconning.

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #244 on:** July 19, 2007, 05:13:02 am »

dragoon costs over 3 times more than shotgun

temple why are you always so high when you post things about changes to trem

David · « **Reply #245 on:** July 19, 2007, 11:06:00 am »

Quote from: "Nux"

I may aswell say something now though. Suffice it to say, the turrets are very easy to avoid now. You can be killed easily if you let them stop turning, so you just keep them turning (which isn't too hard) and you're free to frolic in the human base. As for the regen, I'm not sure what you're refering to there. Is it the no heal when om down? Or maybe the turrets regen their hp?

Firstly, you need to build the turrets differently now. 1.1 style turret building is easy to avoid. 1.2 style building the turrets are way better. Overpowered even.

And the regen changes? Thanks for proving what we already all knew. Your bitching about changes you haven't played and don't know fuck about.

temple · « **Reply #246 on:** July 19, 2007, 11:59:36 am »

Quote from: "n00b pl0x"

dragoon costs over 3 times more than shotgun

temple why are you always so high when you post things about changes to trem

2 killed dretches = shotgun and full armor
3 killed humans = dragoon

The game is asymmetrical. The shotgun balances the goon. I would say nerf the goon's hit points if the shottie wasn't as strong.

Eeeew Spiders · « **Reply #247 on:** July 19, 2007, 12:05:22 pm »

Quote from: "temple"

The Dragoon is already the alien version of the shotgun.

But anyone opposing the new build system is just being a prick. You can't tell me that the new system isn't better in all ways. None of you comments have anything to do with actual building. Which is the point of the system, as well as preventing deconning.

With Unlagged, you only have the shooter/attacker in mind, with new build system you only make it easier to build. In both cases thoughts about the opponent are omitted. If easier was the only criteria, I could name you tons of changes which would make things easier. It's the challenge who is on the loosing side when you make everything easier.

temple · « **Reply #248 on:** July 19, 2007, 12:14:51 pm »

Quote from: "Eeeew Spiders"

Quote from: "temple"
The Dragoon is already the alien version of the shotgun.

But anyone opposing the new build system is just being a prick. You can't tell me that the new system isn't better in all ways. None of you comments have anything to do with actual building. Which is the point of the system, as well as preventing deconning.

With Unlagged, you only have the shooter/attacker in mind, with new build system you only make it easier to build. In both cases thoughts about the opponent are omitted. If easier was the only criteria, I could name you tons of changes which would make things easier. It's the challenge who is on the loosing side when you make everything easier.

You are debating just to debate.

The whole 'disappearing' building issue sounds like fear of change. 1 little change. Is it really that big of an issue?

Nux · « **Reply #249 on:** July 19, 2007, 05:30:37 pm »

Can I ask that people start giving reasons and answers in their responses rather than merely being contrary and attacking the people rather than their arguments. In my posts you might find I give plenty of explanation which might simply be ignored by most who respond as I'm not hearing justification for the issues I raise in the majority of cases.

I get the impression that anything that doesn't support your conclusion is ignored. If I am truly wrong in what I say, surely you can give reasons why this is the case.

Quote from: "temple"

The Dragoon is already the alien version of the shotgun.

No justification. You've merely stated your conclusion.

Quote from: "temple"

But anyone opposing the new build system is just being a prick.

This is called an ad hominem argument. You're attacking the person, not confronting the argument.

Quote from: "temple"

You can't tell me that the new system isn't better in all ways.

Give REASONS. I can tell you this if I feel it is so. You're being contrary and nothing more.

Quote from: "temple"

None of you comments have anything to do with actual building.

I would argue that my reasons for disliking the new build system have everything to do with building. Moving the base is the major concern for me. Though it makes building within the current base position easier, this is not so much of a problem in my view.

Notice how whenever I am contrary, I will try to make my justifaction clear. In many cases I have already given justification, but I'll give it again so that you don't have to read previous posts.

Quote from: "temple"

Which is the point of the system, as well as preventing deconning.

I can't be sure you know exactly how their decisions were made. You could very well be assuming. I'm not even sure what reasons you would have for saying that actual building is the point of the system. This seems like a truism to me.

As for the deconning issue, I don't think a measure against deconning (which doesn't actually stop deconners, as they can move the reactor to a bad spot) should affect games in which there would have been no deconning anyway.

Quote from: "temple"

The Dragoon is already the alien version of the shotgun.

But anyone opposing the new build system is just being a prick. You can't tell me that the new system isn't better in all ways. None of you comments have anything to do with actual building. Which is the point of the system, as well as preventing deconning.

This post of temple's is just one of many examples of how not to argue your point.

Quote from: "David"

Firstly, you need to build the turrets differently now.

I'm not sure if it makes one bit of difference where you place turrets like these (Please note: If you play this demo in the Base game rather than the TJW version, you'll probably hear nade drops instead of turret wirring). This doesn't just go for small aliens. Tyrants only have to keep strafing while slashing the turrets to avoid their fire. It's insanely easy.

Quote from: "David"

Thanks for proving what we already all knew. Your bitching about changes you haven't played and don't know fuck about.

I haven't played 1.2. None of you have. I have played on servers that implement many of the changes 1.2 will make, however. Also, I might question hypothetical changes, not on any experience with them but with logical deduction in the hypothetical setting.

temple · « **Reply #250 on:** July 20, 2007, 12:47:19 am »

I'm not even entertaining your serious ass posts about a video game.

Eeeew Spiders · « **Reply #251 on:** July 20, 2007, 11:26:18 am »

I agree with temple here, Nux completely fails to understand the main spirit of this forums and some of their posters.

@Nux: here they talk with their heart, not their minds. Everybody that went once "Uhm, I know this is healthy, but it sure doesn't taste right" knows what I mean. Its like that last war, where the heart says "We have to attack someone!" and the mind says "Well yeah, but it wasn't them".
The mind can be wrong, the heart never is. And you cannot ground what your heart says on arguments, cause that is basing it on that unreliable mind.
And as a note, basing it on the gut is even better than the heart.

Nux · « **Reply #252 on:** July 20, 2007, 01:05:44 pm »

Quote from: "temple"

I'm not even entertaining your serious ass posts about a video game.

The trouble is, temple, you will say what you believe and are unlikely to take notice of the criticism you recieve. You're perfectly happy following the discussion so long as the posts stay small and your argument remains valid. Now that one or both of those limits have been reached, you've decided to conclude that the whole discussion exercise isn't serious enough to be as thorough as I am. It sounds to me like you prefer the type of discussion where you can make your point in the comfortable knowledge that you must be right. Where nothing is actually learned.

@Eeeew Spiders: I've no problem with people merely expressing their opinions and feelings. temple, here, is an example of one who would speak from his heart and say it was from his brain. They make no such distinction between heart and brain.

I'm a member of this community who happens to be a compulsive thinker. My heart is in my brain. It's all just belief to me. The difference between my belief systems and theirs, is that I try to understand things before I decide to believe them. More than that- I share my understanding to help those who don't understand how I could believe such nonsense.

I will most likely be quite informal in my posts initially. Only when others prod me, do I find it necessary to be thorough. They might not understand me first off, so it's best to spell it out as clearly as I can. This can often mean more text. Too much text can scare people off (unfortunately), even when this is only because I'm making my points more explanative.

Don't feel bullied by my occasionally long posts. I'm sure there's alot of useful information in there if you care to find it.

If you want to make useful comments, please respond to my demo.

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #253 on:** July 20, 2007, 08:52:29 pm »

when i watched that demo i didnt have mgturretspinup.wav

:O D:

Nux · « **Reply #254 on:** July 21, 2007, 01:07:25 am »

Quote from: "Nux"

(Please note: If you play this demo in the Base game rather than the TJW version, you'll probably hear nade drops instead of turret wirring).

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #255 on:** July 21, 2007, 01:14:50 am »

YEAH THAT WHY I HEAR DA NADES BUT NOONE IN DEMO HAVE NADES

Eeeew Spiders · « **Reply #256 on:** July 21, 2007, 04:20:54 pm »

Oh, I thought it was the dretch wearing clogs.

saw the demo, maybe the turrets need to be plugged in first?

More serious though, it doesn't quite show how the turrets will do when there is more confusion with more people shooting at you. Atleast it seems the turrets act less as a KS since it takes a while until they spin up. More interesting I think is however what the effect is on reactor jumps by Marauder and Basilisks in a more or less unprotected base. Maybe it will help those 3vs3 and 4vs4 where humans need to leave one behind with 1.1 turrets.

kevlarman · « **Reply #257 on:** July 21, 2007, 04:26:28 pm »

Quote from: "Eeeew Spiders"

Oh, I thought it was the dretch wearing clogs.

saw the demo, maybe the turrets need to be plugged in first?

More serious though, it doesn't quite show how the turrets will do when there is more confusion with more people shooting at you. Atleast it seems the turrets act less as a KS since it takes a while until they spin up. More interesting I think is however what the effect is on reactor jumps by Marauder and Basilisks in a more or less unprotected base. Maybe it will help those 3vs3 and 4vs4 where humans need to leave one behind with 1.1 turrets.

when properly placed, they help a lot with marauders because of the buffed range, they won't help against basis, but i have yet to see one make it through the turrets to the top of the reactor, and jumping on the reac with a goon is basically suicide.

Nux · « **Reply #258 on:** July 21, 2007, 08:20:21 pm »

The demo is merely an illustration of the difference between the old and the new. With the old turrets, I wouldn't have been able to do that even though it has no humans in there. If it requires humans to be there to be effective, surely that would encourage camping. I thought you told me they had been changed to make camping less of an option. In the demo, I made a point about being able to go straight toward a group of turrets that are already facing my way, and survive. It's just a matter of making the slightest degree of an angle with their view-line to keep them moving and that's apparently enough. It took alot more thought to avoid the old turrets.

I would gladly test this mod in a proper game, if some server in europe would run it. From what I've seen on the TJW server, it's quite easy to avoid turrets by strafing, circling and jumping on top of them. It doesn't seem to matter how big the alien is, so long as you keep the center of you out of the turrets sight.

A dretch can avoid most turret-setups by doing the usual bouncing around. Even if I get hit, I seem to easily get away without dying. This might be something to do with the kickback.

As for reactor jumps, unless they've changed the hitboxes to fix this, sitting on the middle of the reactor is usually quite safe from turret fire. I'd like to know if they have changed the hitbox of the reactor to be smaller or the boxes of any alien to be bigger.

Could you demonstrate how to set the turrets up effectiely? I tried to make the turret setup in my demo as varied as I could (a straight line + a lone turret not far off + a zig zag).

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #259 on:** July 21, 2007, 08:25:26 pm »

about reactor jump...

the range of the turrets has been upped, so you can make turrets farther away from the reactor, and still able to hit whats ontop

therefore they will be able to hit when they couldnt before because of the new angle...

not that hard to figure out

Nux · « **Reply #260 on:** July 21, 2007, 08:28:09 pm »

Ok, that's a good point. I wonder if it's enough..

Eeeew Spiders · « **Reply #261 on:** July 21, 2007, 08:42:20 pm »

So I am guessing that the new turrets do a better job in protecting structures, and less to protect players? (this since to kill a person you only need to enter base fast and leave it fast, where as to destroy structures you'd be required to stay a bit longer in their base, thus giving the turrets a better chance to take a shot at you). This sounds nice.
Does TremX uses the new turrets? It doesn't seem that way, maybe it should (hint hint)

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #262 on:** July 21, 2007, 09:08:44 pm »

the new turrets do a lot better against any alien they can stay locked onto, i.e. something sitting on top the reac.

they suck against anything that can break their line of sight, i.e. ninjadretch/lisk/mara

temple · « **Reply #263 on:** July 21, 2007, 09:24:52 pm »

New turrets do not stop dretches. I've played several times . The part that is missing the placement of far turrets. Those are brutal because they will fire before you can move. Those turrets aren't as effective on ACTS but they rock on more open maps.

Further more, those rets protect from REAL threats like goons and maras.

Nux · « **Reply #264 on:** July 21, 2007, 09:36:27 pm »

I've yet to see them be as effective as they're made out to be. Can someone give me any help in the 'closer server that runs tjw mod' department?

temple · « **Reply #265 on:** July 21, 2007, 09:46:21 pm »

Quote from: "Nux"

I've yet to see them be as effective as they're made out to be. Can someone give me any help in the 'closer server that runs tjw mod' department?

Have you played past Stage 1?

The new turrets on ACTS would have killed you if they were by the ledge.

Try the new turrets on Karith or Niveus. They will bang a dretch before they get close.

The new turrets are effective in the fact that they may not lock at first, but after 2-3 seconds, they will be almost impossible to avoid and pretty much kill anything before it can escape. You can get in the H base, but that increased range/damage will mean you aren't escaping it.

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #266 on:** July 21, 2007, 09:52:23 pm »

unless you just outspin it, go behind another turret to break its sight, have a different alien run infront of you to break its sight, go past a human to break its sight, etc

Nux · « **Reply #267 on:** July 21, 2007, 11:58:27 pm »

Quote from: "temple"

Quote from: "Nux"
I've yet to see them be as effective as they're made out to be. Can someone give me any help in the 'closer server that runs tjw mod' department?

Have you played past Stage 1?

The new turrets on ACTS would have killed you if they were by the ledge.

Try the new turrets on Karith or Niveus. They will bang a dretch before they get close.

The new turrets are effective in the fact that they may not lock at first, but after 2-3 seconds, they will be almost impossible to avoid and pretty much kill anything before it can escape. You can get in the H base, but that increased range/damage will mean you aren't escaping it.

Numbah 1: I was asking whether I could have a close server to test it further.

Numbah 2: I have actually tested it on many maps and they were even more poor in the open-spaces of karith station. I was able to avoid and take them down even with a tyrant. In long rows or dotted around, they were always turning and never shooting.

David · « **Reply #268 on:** July 22, 2007, 12:13:10 am »

Quote from: "n00b pl0x"

unless you just outspin it, go behind another turret to break its sight, have a different alien run infront of you to break its sight, go past a human to break its sight, etc

If you can do that then its a shit base and deserves to die.
That or its an incredible bit of teamwork and deserves to win.

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #269 on:** July 22, 2007, 12:17:53 am »

i havent really seen a base you cant do that to...

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Author Topic: TJW new version of Tremulous (Read 115471 times)