TJW new version of Tremulous

[David]

It has no memory as to who marked a building.  

And have you played with mark decon?

[Nux]

Yup. Though it was briefly. I didn't try moving base though. It's only just occured to me how stupid that would look.

In general, I'm a little apprehensive about changes to the game because I'm just used to the way it is already. I enjoy it and don't have issues with the way it works. Though I can adapt quite easily, I'm worried that the changes might take nuances away that I enjoy about the current version.

[tuple]

It's an option that can be enabled/disabled.  Don't like it, disable it or play on servers that have it disabled.

However, servers having serious problems with deconners will have it as an option in their defensive arsenal.  Will it stop deconners/griefer builders, no.  Will it stop those who join, decon nodes and RC then quit?  You can still get away with most of that (mark nodes and arm, build turrets.)  However, it will slow them down considerably.  Is it less disruptive than the layout solution some servers have employed to fight deconners? Considerably.

If you don't think deconning is that serious of a problem, you have been fortunate enough to avoid servers where deconning occurs in almost every match (some days.)

Additionally, some people like it, and will enable it for that reason and none other.  Just like unlagged.

Arguing over the options that are ultimately up to the server operator is like arguing over the menu.  I'm not quite sure what the point is.

[Ceaser342]

arguing over the menu

I think the menu needs options in it [/i]

[Nux]

If it is optional, then that's good. I didn't know that.

Like unlagged, there seems to be alot of tremulous players who want it to be a 'must-have'. This is what I'm worried might happen if enough inexperienced but numerous players make a demand for it.

[David]

I hope mark decon wont be optional.

It changes the game play quite drastically, and as such should be uniform across all servers.
I thought it was only optional ATM as it needed a client download...

[Nux]

I hope mark decon wont be optional.

Exactly the kind of sentiment I'm talking about.

[benmachine]

I hope mark decon wont be optional.

Exactly the kind of sentiment I'm talking about.

I feel you are misrepresenting David here. I, too, think optional markdecon would be a bad idea. Not because I hate you and want to eat your individuality and make this experience less fun for you, but merely because it is a significant enough game mechanic that to keep the discrepancy, potentially causing a great deal of confusion especially to new users, would seem to me to cause more harm than good in the long run. For a while now the concept of a "classic" mod to 1.2.0 to reflect 1.1.0 gameplay while maintaining the new bugfixes and various enhancements - g_markDeconstruct 0 is likely in these modes.

[temple]

What exactly is wrong with marked decon are people discussing here.  I think its the probably the best thing about the changes.

People don't like that 1 person can manage a base?

[Nux]

I've already said, but to save you from having to read my past posts I'll say it again very briefly. I don't like the idea of the human base disappearing with no humans around when the base is being moved. It looks stupid and makes moving too easy. When building in the same area you're deconning, I have no problem with the new system.

[temple]

I've already said, but to save you from having to read my past posts I'll say it again very briefly. I don't like the idea of the human base disappearing with no humans around when the base is being moved. It looks stupid and makes moving too easy. When building in the same area you're deconning, I have no problem with the new system.

Too easy and silly looking.  

Too easy is subjective.  Its hard to coordinate multiple people and more often than not gets fucked up.  I'd rather it be easier and less messy than hard and prone to failure.

Silly looking?  Who fucking cares?

[Ceaser342]

I have to go with Nux.  Mark decon makes it to easy.  You can bias the game for the idiots that play.  I see moves done on public servers all the time.  All you need are two builders who don't have there thumbs up there ass and some fighters who can aim.  With mark decon what can the aliens do as they watch the base magically disappear?

If the humans are noob enough to have one builder running back and forth to decon and build they deserve to have there base help hostage.  The current build system requires common sense.  Do we really need to give another check to humans for the retardation?

[kevlarman]

I have to go with Nux.  Mark decon makes it to easy.  You can bias the game for the idiots that play.  I see moves done on public servers all the time.  All you need are two builders who don't have there thumbs up there ass and some fighters who can aim.  With mark decon what can the aliens do as they watch the base magically disappear?

If the humans are noob enough to have one builder running back and forth to decon and build they deserve to have there base help hostage.  The current build system requires common sense.  Do we really need to give another check to humans for the retardation?

why is making human moves easier a bad thing? if aliens are paying any attention they should be able to stop a move, even with markdecon i can almost stop an entire move by myself (5v5, players like norf on humans) if i catch them in the act.

[temple]

With mark decon what can the aliens do as they watch the base magically disappear?

If the humans are noob enough to have one builder running back and forth to decon and build they deserve to have there base help hostage.  

What can the aliens do?  What has changed?  They can attack the old or new base.  

Most teams don't decide on building, they just end up with a base.  Or you have no building done at all.  Even worse, you have 5 builders all fighting over the base while 2 guys have to do all the fighting.  

FEW FEW FEW games I have ever seen has had coordinated building.  So, why keep out this bullshit notion of forcing skill when in reality, you just ensuring confusion.

This only pisses off spawn campers.  Now, the other team doesn't have to suicide to decon the old base (because as some point your team gets split and your defensives are lower when moving, it punishes humans more).  
Now I can worry a little less about the base.

[Ceaser342]

Maybe some in depth tutorials on building and common locations could help?  I think this game needs some ingame stuff like in Tribes to teach people the basics.  As it is now with 1.1 you need common sense to play.  With mark deconstruct all it takes is you marking the base then running to the new base and to start building.  No other effort required.

[Nux]

if aliens are paying any attention they should be able to stop a move

That's a big if. When you have players who haven't only just found the game and will stop playing it a day later, then they might be more clever than your average player. I get the impression those who like this system are too used to public games filled with inexperienced players, and have no idea how much fun a game full of experienced players- with high levels of coordination -can be. In such games with the old system, whether or not you get all your bp for the new base position is based on how well your team coordinated the move and how well the enemy keeps you from deconning those last structures. With the new system, a failing base could start disappearing without any alien realising why until it's too late.

*Mr. Goon looks at the base he's attacking* "Oh good!" he says "my teammates have taken down those turrets!"

*Mr.Builder- who was the one who removed the old base turrets while on the other side of the map -has got 2 nodes and a turret up during the attack*

*Mr. Goon steps onto the last node* "Muhahaha!" he cackles "I've got the last spawn!" He decides to destroy it and win the game. Unfortunately it disappears from under his feet. "What the hell?!" he exclaims.

*Mr.Builder has finished the new base and while the rest of his teams sets off to attack the alien base, he sets off to the next place he'll move the base to in the event of a base attack*

A well coordinated team could take advantage of it so much that it would be a great head-ache to finish off any base without it popping up somewhere else.

[kevlarman]

and have no idea how much fun a game full of experienced players- with high levels of coordination -can be.

i do have an idea what that is like, and if anything markdecon makes games more fun and more fair, i don't think anyone who has actually used the system has ever complained about it.
edit: i fail @

[David]

In your examples you say a competent human team shouldn't need it.  You also say that mostly the aliens are incompetent.  Make your mind up.

And it works both ways, aliens can mark too...

[temple]

That's a big if. When you have players who haven't only just found the game and will stop playing it a day later, then they might be more clever than your average player. I get the impression those who like this system are too used to public games filled with inexperienced players, and have no idea how much fun a game full of experienced players- with high levels of coordination -can be. In such games with the old system, whether or not you get all your bp for the new base position is based on how well your team coordinated the move and how well the enemy keeps you from deconning those last structures. With the new system, a failing base could start disappearing without any alien realising why until it's too late.

*Mr. Goon looks at the base he's attacking* "Oh good!" he says "my teammates have taken down those turrets!"

*Mr.Builder- who was the one who removed the old base turrets while on the other side of the map -has got 2 nodes and a turret up during the attack*

*Mr. Goon steps onto the last node* "Muhahaha!" he cackles "I've got the last spawn!" He decides to destroy it and win the game. Unfortunately it disappears from under his feet. "What the hell?!" he exclaims.

*Mr.Builder has finished the new base and while the rest of his teams sets off to attack the alien base, he sets off to the next place he'll move the base to in the event of a base attack*

A well coordinated team could take advantage of it so much that it would be a great head-ache to finish off any base without it popping up somewhere else.

The same idiot aliens that can't respond to a base move are the same idiots humans that can't move a base.  This isn't a MMORPG where people only play 1 side.  If you got idiots on 1 team, they will be on the other team at some point.

You just proving the point.

[techhead]

How to have a roaming base:
10 Mark all existing buildings
20 IF base is under heavy attack, THEN move player position away from enemies, ELSE wait
30 Build base
40 IF base complete, THEN GOTO 10, ELSE GOTO 30.

Simple rules, complex game, and annoying as hell to play against.

[benmachine]

The trouble is, in S1 you have to take the reactor first, and it's not going to be long before the entire alien team is searching the map for it. In later stages you can start with a repeater but in the meantime you'll have two half-bases and you run a serious risk of losing both to determined rushes. In order to move base as regularly as you suggest, you have to first get out of base with a ckit, then get to an appropriate base location somewhere and stay hidden  long enough for you to get a reactor and at least two turrets up. Even now if you're unlucky a dragoon will pounce straight over and finish you, and you're basically screwed. So you'll need a node, an armoury, and a medistation... only now can your teammates get back up to full attacking efficiency, and your base is still pretty vulnerable.

[Nux]

i don't think anyone who has actually used the system has ever complained about it.

I've already said that I've used it.

In your examples you say a competent human team shouldn't need it.  You also say that mostly the aliens are incompetent.

Where do I say this in those examples? I think you misread something. I'm in favour of the old system because it punishes incompetence and encourages teamwork.

The same idiot aliens that can't respond to a base move are the same idiots humans that can't move a base.  This isn't a MMORPG where people only play 1 side.  If you got idiots on 1 team, they will be on the other team at some point.

When I speak of playing with experienced players, I mean BOTH sides has experienced players. If any team is full of inexperienced players, you're not playing the kind of game I'm talking about. European clan wars are good examples of high level coordination and tactics.

@benmachine: It's not the same scenario as with the old system, as the builder doesn't have to worry about another teammate deconning for him, or him deconning and then rushing to the spot while the reactor is down. With this system, the second the reactor goes down in the old base, it immediately starts building in the new base. No one even needs to be in the old spot anymore (they can all be at the new spot protecting the builder). If the builders get's caught before he starts building nothing is lost base-wise since the reactor never got deconned. If the Reactor does go down, the aliens aren't going to immediately search for the new one. They'll want to secure/destroy the base because one of their team had taken it out as far as they know.

I hope I'm wrong and this new system helps alot to balance and make more interesting games. I'm fearful this is likely not to be the case.

[benmachine]

If the Reactor does go down, the aliens aren't going to immediately search for the new one. They'll want to secure/destroy the base because one of their team had taken it out as far as they know.

IF the reactor disappears - while all the defenses are still up - and the human team goes AWOL too, they're going to be suspicious. They are going to knock out the unprotected spawns - net themselves a couple of free evos - and confirm their suspicions. With marauders hopping and dragoons pouncing, they'd have to be particularly inefficient or particularly unlucky to miss the nascent base before it got on its feet.
Oh, and what you said was:

Yup. Though it was briefly. I didn't try moving base though. It's only just occured to me how stupid that would look.

Hardly a great deal of experience.

[Nux]

If I saw a base with no people in it with the old system, I'd know it's because they're on a massive assualt. I'd take this opportunity to see if I can take the base down. If I can go straight for the reactor, I will. If I'm successful, only the reactor will be down at first. I might be chased off by some returning human at that point. This would leave my teammates to find a base with no reactor, yet all the defences are up and there's noone in the base. I personally would notify my team if I knew the reactor was down, but that doesn't mean they'll pressume it's the usual case when they see the reactorless base.

i don't think anyone who has actually used the system has ever complained about it.

I've used it. That's enough to counter that opinion. Now if you ask whether I've used it alot, well as you point out I have admitted to not using it that much. I would have to use it more to be sure of it being a good/bad system. That said, I haven't had the urge to go back to using it at any point since using it, so it can't have made that good an impression on me.

[benmachine]

I might be chased off by some returning human at that point.

You might indeed. Who is going to tell all his human buddies to get the hell back home right now. Who is not going to carry on assaulting, for goodness' sake. If he does not turn up, you are left to take out the telenodes and then go looking for the team. If he does, then the base sure as hell isn't going to be empty when your team arrives.

[Nux]

I'll just remind you that the point of that last example was to show that when my team finds a base with no reactor, all the defences are up and no human is around, they won't necessarily think "They must be moving the base somewhere". So while they're busy 'finishing them off' the humans in that time could have already got the main parts of their base up, and any attack force against the move will be met by the whole teams worth of defenders and builders.

If you don't think they can build the new base that fast with one builder, how about a whole teams worth? They could make all the important parts of their old base suddenly shift to the new spot in an instant and will be up and running in hardily any time at all. This would be different to the usual 'ckit-runners' you get when the base is falling in the standard game, because this could happen at ANY TIME. So long as everyone meets up safely in the new spot, they can then decide to remotely decon the reactor. If they don't meet up safely (e.g. many died along the way) at least they never deconned the reactor. So the base will very likely still be there.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Can you mark campers and move them to the new base too, making them pop away from the grab of a basilisk?

The initial Idea of marked building was meant as a measurement against deconners. I thought it was a great idea then when the idea of marked buildings was about being able to mark a single building per ckit only. It was sufficient to deal with deconners.

Pleague Bringer had a good point when he said that there are stupid aliens and smart aliens, the ones that kill unpowered structures and the ones that leaves them as a relict of a bad move.
Marked building now reduce smart aliens to stupid alien. At least make it so that an alien can distinguish a marked building from an unmarked building or the game becomes like a David Copperfield show (David Copperfield the magician, not Dickens Copperfield).
I feel that many of the changes removes a lot of the features that required a lot of skill to master in 1.1. This goes from Unlagged to building/moving to lisking.

 I didn't mind that skilled people have an advantage over non-skilled players. I think it's what a game makes attractive.

Especially with Unlagged and marked building features are added to the game which makes the game less WISIWYG as temple said in another thread. You have less control over the game and events happen implicitly.

[Harry Joe]

I feel that many of the changes removes a lot of the features that required a lot of skill to master in 1.1. This goes from Unlagged to building/moving to lisking.

This mirrors my own opinion quite nicely. Dumbing down trem is not the answer and i'm quite annoyed that the skilless majority seem to be dictating what needs to be changed.

[Nux]

I feel that many of the changes removes a lot of the features that required a lot of skill to master in 1.1. This goes from Unlagged to building/moving to lisking.

This mirrors my own opinion quite nicely. Dumbing down trem is not the answer and i'm quite annoyed that the skilless majority seem to be dictating what needs to be changed.

I make a similar point throughout previous posts. My major concern is that they will not only balance the humans against the aliens, but balance the experienced with the inexperienced players. I would call this making the game more 'shallow' as there would be less to learn about the game as you play.

I'll give you an example. Currently a good builder understands that before he decons 1 of his two nodes to move it, he should decon something else (say a turret if he already had more than 2 bp) then build the new node with those bp. Then he decons the old one. This way the humans never have less than 2 nodes and the flow of spawning humans is never impeded.

In general, a game is more interesting when there are rules and tricks that you learn about the game as you play it. This is what I mean by depth. Pong (old fashioned computer game) for example has very little depth. It's a matter of moving the paddle to hit the ball and nothing more. Tetris (also an old fashioned computer game) is an example of a game that has alot of depth. As you play it, you realise what to do and what not to do (like avoiding covering gaps with more blocks wherever possible).

[kevlarman]

balance the experienced with the inexperienced players.

i assure you that any inexperienced players get pissed off from the regen and/or turrets long before they have a chance to make any difference in how balance will be.