TJW new version of Tremulous

[David]

if you let a ckit escape, and dont notice, then you deserve it.

[sharrakor]

WHAT SHIT CHANGES TJW MADE

[techhead]

WHAT SHIT CHANGES TJW MADE

So say we all...

[AKAnotu]

WHAT SHIT CHANGES TJW MADE

qft

[[A]]

Rofl, i just tested the "new" adv-basi.

The basi is allready as powerfull as we could dream to be usefull while we are making a real teamplay

But futur adv-basi is a joke, a pure hax :

-You can grab from miles (750 ?? whatajoke why not 1500 ?)
-With unlagged, target is grabbed "2xattackerping" ms "in the past".
-you can temporary grab 2 humans who are in the "grab-line"
-You just have to wallwalk 5 sec to regen from 50 to 100.
-adv basi gaz works with bs and helmet.
-The grab range allow you to grab a bs and jump around him without leave the grab,  the gaz affect him so he cant hit you and for the few bullet you could take you have an instant regen.

futur-adv-basi > bs chaingun
bs chaingun > futur-adv goon
futur-adv-basi > futur-adv-goon .......

current personal aptitude of adv basi are good enought, only players are nubs.

You really should decrease the basi aptitude, regen x3 for other alien, ... OK, but x3 for basi himself oO, decrease grab from 750 to 550 at least.
 
I m playing with (CY) clan (european clan), since 3 week we are playing with a strategy WITHOUT goon at s1 (and s2) (so only mara and basi), we have won all the aliens rounds vs different team and human have NEVER reach s2 before our s3.

When you have to use basi and mara because you cant (or in our case, dont want) use the goon, you start to realize how powerfull they are.

I could post you all the demo from the matches to prove it,  mara and basi are already enought stronger to pown human in s1/s2 alien vs s1 human.

Instead of mooving the adv goon from s3 to s2 and making stronger the basi (basi dont need that to pown), you should better move goon from s1 to s2 without decrease his ability.


Our first alien round with that strat.
demo 4v4 full mara

I will up you soon some other demo vs other team with mara/basi teamplay.

[tuple]

WHAT SHIT CHANGES TJW MADE

WHAT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM SHARRAKOR MADE

I understand the need to vent sometimes.  Aliens will now need to play a little more as a team instead of the rogue loners they were.  Sure there was alien teamwork, but the game did not rely on it like it does with the humans.

I say Good Job TJW and Norfenstein, and thank you.
edit: On these changes I mean, thanks to everyone involved really!

[Mad_Joe]

WHAT SHIT CHANGES TJW MADE

WHAT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM SHARRAKOR MADE

I understand the need to vent sometimes.  Aliens will now need to play a little more as a team instead of the rogue loners they were.  Sure there was alien teamwork, but the game did not rely on it like it does with the humans.

I say Good Job TJW and Norfenstein, and thank you.

Yeah, really people. Remember that the devs aren't trying to mess up the game. Criticism is, of course, good, but only if it is constructive. Just saying they have made horrible changes doesn't help much.

Also, I completely disagree with people saying tyrants have been weakened into uselessness. Just because tyrants aren't the perfect solution to taking down a human base doesn't mean tyrants still present a significant threat to humans outside of their base. Tyrants have their places, but the alien's team strategy should not be just evolve up to tyrant once you hit S3. Remember, this is what the devs wanted, and what is best for the game.

One thing that might be worth consideration is devolution for the aliens. This would need to be implemented very carefully, so as not to completely overpower aliens, but it would help with the different places for different aliens.

[temple]

I like all the changes except 2.  That means I like:

• The Building system
• Alien regeneration
• Goon changes
• Marauder changes
• Basilisk changes
• Unlagged
• Lucifer changes

I look at the changes from playing on both teams, if one thing is changed, it helps when I'm playing the other side.  But I dislike 2 specific things

Unlagged and Alien hit points
With Unlagged, humans are dealing a lot more damage.  Specifically, the rifle is connecting much more and making Stage 1 and Stage 2 brutal for aliens. I think all aliens need their hit points buffed around 5-10 points due to how the game plays now.

Tyrants
If Stage 1 and Stage 2 are harder for aliens, at Stage 3, tyrants are no longer the pay off and solution to cracking human bases.  Tyrants had 3 advantages previously

• High hitpoints
• High damage
• Relatively high ground speed

Now,

• Nerfed Health- Isn't really that big of any issue.
• No Regeneration- Is a big issue for tyrants.
• Nerfed swipe range- Is a skill issue, encourages people to play better.
• Nerfed trample (increased charge time)- Huge issue for tyrants.  The reduced ground speed, specifically the 3-4 seconds it takes to charge a trample, makes tyrants too easy to kill.  Anyone can run down a tyrant and finish them off if they come close to a human base.

Right now, tyrants are only good for defending the alien base and killing lone humans. Tyrants don't stand an ice cube's chance in hell when it comes to attacking the human base



Outside of the changes, the alien team is in crisis.  Stage 3 doesn't mean anything anymore to aliens.   Since tyrants aren't gamebreakers, aliens only need Stage 2 and advanced dragoons.

The problem is that alien loose so much for the benefit of advanced dragoons.  
1) All aliens, other than the tyrant, suddenly because 'useful' because tyrants are so useless.  But that isn't a gain, its just the default.  
2) Aliens loose the ability to control the map without tyrants.  Basically, advanced dragoons can be killed by the pulse rifle, flamer, chaingun, and lucifer cannon reliably.  Other aliens don't fare much better.

The only thing that kept humans in check were tyrants or the fear that aliens would get to Stage 3 and have tyrants.  

Personally, I always thought tyrants were overpowered but they were necessary. The major problem is that everyone evolved to tyrants, shifting the balance of power into aliens' side greatly.  

If the developers have the balls to nerf the tyrant as much as they have, they should have the balls to take them out.  I never thought tyrants were a 'fair' class at Stage 3 but I can't imagine what else would work.  Might as well cook up something else.  I'm not angry or complaining, I'm just giving you my perspective.  Aliens are in big trouble and the only reasons why they win TJW's server is from sheer skill.

[Mad_Joe]

Good point with tyrants. I agree that they should be powerful aliens that humans fear. Maybe they have been weakened too much to even be a threat outside of the human base.

I'm wondering: with the new turret system (especially the double damage but slow turrets), am I right in assuming that basis and maras have a better time surviving in the first stages of an attack than tyrants do? Maybe with some tweaking, we can keep tyrants powerful but weak against strong turrets, while still allowing smaller aliens to stand up against the turrets.

Right now when aliens attack a human base the strong tyrants and goons go in first to soften up the heavy defenses, and are followed by weaker aliens when the turrets are down. With turrets being highly effective against slower aliens, the new attack would be basis and maras going in first and attacking the turrets, and tyrants come in to finish the base once the turrets are gone. I kind of like the second way.

The other (rather obvious) plus of this system is dretches can run around the turrets and maybe kill a few humans if non-turret human defenders can't take them down. This would help discourage humans overly camping.

[Lakitu7]

TRAMPLE IS NOT NERFED

Trample now works more like pounce - you have to actually let go of the button. If you let go of the button at the right time, then the trample is EXACTLY THE SAME as it always was. If you let go earlier, it also actually works. If you let go later, it works about the same: this is just a punishment for people that hold the button down all the time. The truth is, you have all the power of the old trample and all the additional control of being able to fire it earlier/more precisely to get around corners and through straightwaways during your escapes. This and the increased chaingun spread do a good job to balance the 350HP for some tasks.

In addition, trample now works VERY WELL as an attack. If you trample from full or near-full charge vs a full-health bsuit and press it against the wall to score multi hits, it dies in less than two seconds. If you trample a helmet/larmor, it dies almost instantly.

This power makes up for the changes in swipe length/width, though those barely need to be compensated for in the first place because, as was said, you can just play better .

Though I do agree with you about the dretch HP. Unlagged + the low regen really needs dretch HP back to 30, like they were considering for a bit.


And re: Mad_Joe:
Goons and Rauders take down turrets. +Goons and Rants take down Teslas. Dretches do at the moment manage to score a good deal of kills in vs a s1 (no tesla) base, but honestly I see that more as encouraging camping than discouraging it, since you need human defenders to take them out.

[Stof]

Goons and Rauders take down turrets. +Goons and Rants take down Teslas. Dretches do at the moment manage to score a good deal of kills in vs a s1 (no tesla) base, but honestly I see that more as encouraging camping than discouraging it, since you need human defenders to take them out.

That could be a problem. Maybe it'd be time to greatly increase the range and power of the reactor zap attack. Well, power would only take a small increase but range definitively needs a good improvement. In fact, a basi can kill a reactor near a wall/ceiling without taking any damage at all.

[Lakitu7]

Goons and Rauders take down turrets. +Goons and Rants take down Teslas. Dretches do at the moment manage to score a good deal of kills in vs a s1 (no tesla) base, but honestly I see that more as encouraging camping than discouraging it, since you need human defenders to take them out.

That could be a problem. Maybe it'd be time to greatly increase the range and power of the reactor zap attack. Well, power would only take a small increase but range definitively needs a good improvement. In fact, a basi can kill a reactor near a wall/ceiling without taking any damage at all.

Defense computer does this now. It increases the power of the reactor zap; perhaps the range too, I don't remember.

[temple]

Good point with tyrants. I agree that they should be powerful aliens that humans fear. Maybe they have been weakened too much to even be a threat outside of the human base.

I'm wondering: with the new turret system (especially the double damage but slow turrets), am I right in assuming that basis and maras have a better time surviving in the first stages of an attack than tyrants do? Maybe with some tweaking, we can keep tyrants powerful but weak against strong turrets, while still allowing smaller aliens to stand up against the turrets.

When I played...it was better to take 5 evos and use an advanced marauder and then a regular marauder to attack the human base than to use a tyrant.  I actually killed a lot of turrets as a dretch.  Humans need telsas now because marauders and dretches can jump into a human base and do damage before turrets lock.  

TRAMPLE IS NOT NERFED

Trample now works more like pounce - you have to actually let go of the button. If you let go of the button at the right time, then the trample is EXACTLY THE SAME as it always was. If you let go earlier, it also actually works. If you let go later, it works about the same: this is just a punishment for people that hold the button down all the time. The truth is, you have all the power of the old trample and all the additional control of being able to fire it earlier/more precisely to get around corners and through straightwaways during your escapes. This and the increased chaingun spread do a good job to balance the 350HP for some tasks.

I really disagree.  I played around with trample and I couldn't get it work without just holding it.  It doesn't 'launch' like a dragoon pounce.  Its must be some fine balance between moving and not moving or its just nerfed.  Quite frankly, thats a too definitive of a change to throw on players without documentation.  I need to see some specifics on how to trample cause otherwise, its too slow.  

Chaingun spread doesn't mean much.  Powerful turrets + tyrant slower speed = riflemen killing you when you escape.  People seem to forget that tyrants have to escape.  I played aliens with Norfenstein and even he wasn't using tyrants.  When he did, and he did, he got killed pretty quickly later.

[Plague Bringer]

Aliens used to have S2 being the "useless" stage, no decent upgrades. Now, just the Basi and 'Rauder beefed up makes S2 a powerful stage for aliens. The +Goon's move to S2 and the 'Rant's nerfing has made S3 the "useless" stage. If the +Goon were to be moved back to S3, but the +Basi and +Mara were kept the same, I think that aliens would have both S2 and S3 being useless and it would be meaningful when the Overmind says "We Have Evolved(to stage 3)"

[Mad_Joe]

...I see that more as encouraging camping than discouraging it, since you need human defenders to take them out.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

You could make the argument that even if you need human defenders to take them out, the humans need to leave the base and attack so the aliens won't continue to score kills slowly until S2 and +goons.

That argument has problems though, and the question is if that works in practice.

[Ceaser342]

The new rets are bad enough.   But now +goons show up very quickly.  The humans are dead too.   The nerfed regen wasn't as bad as I thought as long as someone listens on your team.  However rant really does need its regen back.

[Norfenstein]

One thing that might be worth consideration is devolution for the aliens.

Sorry, this is never going to happen. It's been brought up before but it's one of those things fundamental to Tremulous's design that humans have the advantage over aliens of being better able to adapt to changing situations, with the tradeoff of having to rely on a structure to do it.

TRAMPLE IS NOT NERFED

I really disagree.  I played around with trample and I couldn't get it work without just holding it.  It doesn't 'launch' like a dragoon pounce.  Its must be some fine balance between moving and not moving or its just nerfed.

The trample has only been improved, specifically to offset the slash (which, mostly, has only been toned down by requiring more skill). It takes one second to fully charge the trample, all that extra time is for your benefit so you can decide better when and where to release it. Don't strafe while charging though, and backstepping is a good way to cancel it. It does twice as much damage as it did before (there was a bug) and smashing humans against walls can result in the only instant-kills in the game. Plus you can hit a whole hallway full of humans instead of just one with a single trample.

Quite frankly, thats a too definitive of a change to throw on players without documentation.  I need to see some specifics on how to trample cause otherwise, its too slow.

When we're done making changes, then we'll make sure everyone knows how to use every class and hold an actual open beta. TJW's server is really just for he and I to tune the game to how we want it, but everyone is also welcome to play and comment (and we pretty much couldn't test at all if you didn't, so thank you for just playing!), but consider it alpha, not beta. Don't lose credibility now by giving bad feedback (sharrakor, techhead, AKAnotu), when it's not even useful to us (i.e. about something that might change anyway). Not directing that at you temple, just asking you not to expect too much too soon. I'm actually thrilled we're moving along so quickly, at least between tjw and myself (though, really, he's doing all the hard work and, as an aside: anyone blaming him instead of me for changes they don't like tells me instantly that they're not informed enough to be giving feedback yet). I hear the new HUD will have a charge indicator that will make the tyrant's trample ability crystal clear. The person to bug about that is Jex (hint hint).

Chaingun spread doesn't mean much.  Powerful turrets + tyrant slower speed = riflemen killing you when you escape.  People seem to forget that tyrants have to escape.  I played aliens with Norfenstein and even he wasn't using tyrants.  When he did, and he did, he got killed pretty quickly later.

From playing last (I assume that's when you saw me temple) chainsuits seem to be the only thing really left unbalanced. And in the games I played humans barely camped at all. At stage 3 aliens were the ones that actually had to stand back and defend (which is such a departure from 1.1 that it tells me this game actually can be balanced!). You're right about the chaingun spread not meaning much; I'm considering other means (means other than just changing numbers) of balancing it that won't change its role as a "big game hunter". And I personally have no problem with unlagged and the 25 health dretch. I'm personally not done testing yet though, so I could very well change my mind on some of the things that have changed recently and gotten complaints from a number of people (namely the dretch health and turrets versus dretches, and probably some things I'm not remembering at the moment). However, most of the changes that have been in for a while that keep getting complaints I am not going to reconsider. So you're wasting your time suggesting aliens regen equally everywhere or the advance goon be moved to stage 3 (or any of the classes moved between stages at this point).

Keep in mind as well that we (or at least I) don't want the game to be as slow-paced as it was in 1.1. Games are going to much more exciting in 1.2 (you may see one somewhat big change to facilitate this fairly soon) so I'm a little skeptical about complaints about turrets getting destroyed more quickly.

Also, about the regeneration? So many people speak like it was actually useful during battles. It wasn't; you needed to rest several seconds for it to even kick in. All the "nerf" did was make camping outside human bases less possible. Which means aliens might actually have to return to their bases nearly as much as humans do. Which means humans get to leave their own bases more often.

[temple]

I just played some frustrating games.

I'll start with the positives:
I figured out how to trample with tyrants and yes it is better.  Trample more powerful and faster.

Now the negatives:
Any competent human team can completely control the game.

Turrets
With a defender, nothing can survive going near the human base.  Turrets spread out ensure that at least 1 will lock on and blast away an attacker.  Bases can damn near defend themselves until SD.  With a defender, you aren't going to be killing any reactors.
Tesla Generators
The range is rediculous.  True story:
I went to the human base as a dretch.  There was a tesla behind a turret.  By the time I got 4-5 paces from the turret, the tesla zapped from behind it.  It had to be about 8-9 steps away from me.  Imagine if I was a dragoon or tyrant.
The Reactor
When did this become a weapon?  The super zap range is ridiculous.  Its so ironic because:[list=1]

• The selling point of 1.20 is that marauders and basilisks are supposed to be better.  But these class (and I've killed reactors with both) can't possibly survive a reactor zap and new turrets.
• Big aliens get zapped by the reactor more now because the range hits them well before they get near it.  
• Dretches aren't going near the base.  Turrets fire slower but the reactor will zap them like a tesla.[/list:o]
  Chainguns
  They have increased spread.  However, with Unlagged, every human weapon is hitting more frequently.  The chaingun spread is nullified by the increased accuracy of Unlagged.  With a battlesuit and chaingun defender, aliens can only suicide into the human base.  They surely won't be walking away. The chainguns were killing dretches consistently and from moderate range. Something is wrong with this picture.
  Regeneration, Speed, and Unlagged
  I figured why aliens are able to survive in 1.10:  
  • Aliens can regenerate as they flee.  The longer they can dodge, the more their hit points regenerate.  They increase their overall survivability.
  • Every server and every FPS has lag.  Aliens survive simply because you can't be completely accurate.  With Unlagged, it doesn't matter how fast an alien moves, it will take damage.  Any competent player will be able to kill an alien if they have range.
  • With increased accuracy on the human team and decreased regeneration on the alien team, aliens can not launch prolonged attacks and rarely escape an attack.  
  The Alien Problem
  Its too hard to generate evos.
  With Unlagged, dretches are a non threat if the human has range.  Without dretches, aliens don't have another weapon to use.
  
  Its too hard to sustain attacks on humans.
  With humans dealing more damage and bases dealing more damage, a larger alien can't survive a direct assault.  Its much harder to escape and regenerate.  If you die, you end up as a dretch and fighting to earn evos to return to the main confrontation at the human base.  This is basically giving the map to the humans.  
  
  The Human Problem
  No risk.
  Overall, humans can camp and starve aliens of credits BUT with no real repercussions.  
  • Aliens crawling the map, so what?  Hit them a few times and they will be forced to go back to the base, leaving the map open.
  • If aliens rush them, so what?  What is going to survive the exit?
  • If aliens hit Stage 3, so what?  What's going to tear down their base?  How is it going to come back after it hits the defenses?
  What are aliens supposed to do?
  
  
  
  I'll stop giving feedback after this.  I'm feeling really pissed off about this now because humans have so much more control over the game.  Its really lame to see the game go in such a direction.

[Evlesoa]

^^^ Above Post, totally agree... aliens are crap, they cant defend, their regen and all that nerfed, aliens ARE NERFED!!! Admit it ppl, TJWs has done more harm than good to the game play...

[Stof]

^^^ Above Post, totally agree... aliens are crap, they cant defend, their regen and all that nerfed, aliens ARE NERFED!!! Admit it ppl, TJWs has done more harm than good to the game play...

You know, you should read Norfensteins posts, it would give you more credibility.

I'm actually thrilled we're moving along so quickly, at least between tjw and myself (though, really, he's doing all the hard work and, as an aside: anyone blaming him instead of me for changes they don't like tells me instantly that they're not informed enough to be giving feedback yet

Also, about the new chaingun spread, I would say it hurts the humans probably more than aliens would like you to believe, even with Unlagged. With some training, lag doesn't matter at all with a chaingun so Unlagged doesn't help. With an increase in spread it makes it even more impractical to kill an alien at range with it. Chaingun is a short range weapon.

Of course, the majority of games played are with players who don't have enouth training so I guess Unlagged helps here

[Ceaser342]

The turrets are more powerful but you need a decent builder to build them.  If there set up trem 1.1.0 style as a dretch I can very well almost take out a human base.  Its ridiculous.  However if the base is built right its damn near indestructible.

[Lakitu7]

I hear the new HUD will have a charge indicator that will make the tyrant's trample ability crystal clear. The person to bug about that is Jex (hint hint).

Is there any chance that this HUD will also indicate whether you're inside/outside a regen aura and what strength that aura is? I find it difficult to tell whether you're "close enough" to a basy or even just don't notice that one has wandered by and regenned me.

I just played some frustrating games.

The Alien Problem
Its too hard to generate evos.
With Unlagged, dretches are a non threat if the human has range.  Without dretches, aliens don't have another weapon to use.

The increased ability of poison makes generating evos as a dretch much, much more easy.

[tuple]

The increased ability of poison makes generating evos as a dretch much, much more easy.

Not to mention basi gas.  I've been gassing people and letting others take the kill.  Helping the team is helping yourself in Trem.  Gassing a bsuit and watching the dretch swarm clean it up is fun

[Plague Bringer]

Yes, but to get poison and basigas you need S2, and that's not happening with these dretches and unlagged. Aliens are nerfed, face it. The game was better as 1.1, and personally, I hope that these changes stay on tjw and SATGNU. Aliens are meant to be able to control the map and crack bases. Humans are meant to use teamwork to fight them off. Aliens are the hunters, humans are they prey, it should stay that way.

[Norfenstein]

Any competent human team can completely control the game.

Believe or not this has always been the case. We're just now seeing the skill requirement for this brought down to a more practical level. Hopefully this does not mean the "ceiling" of what truly competent teams can accomplish has gone up as much.

Tesla Generators
The range is rediculous[sic]

Obviously dretches are going to be crushed by teslas. I was considering toning them down anyway though, and doing it by range might be the best way.

The Reactor
When did this become a weapon? The super zap range is ridiculous.

This was one of TJW's experiments in response to me wanting teslas and dcc's decoupled. I haven't even tested it yet, but we're already thinking of other alternatives. Besides, who actually attacks the reactor before the armoury/medistation/teles/everything else?

Chainguns

Did you read my previous post? I know it was long, but so is yours I said I thought chainguns were the most unbalanced thing left in the game and I'm working on a solution.

The Alien Problem
Its too hard to generate evos.

Its too hard to sustain attacks on humans.
With humans dealing more damage and bases dealing more damage, a larger alien can't survive a direct assault.  Its much harder to escape and regenerate.  If you die, you end up as a dretch and fighting to earn evos to return to the main confrontation at the human base.

This is also being addressed. Killing structures will yield funds so, in theory, if you accomplish anything in a base raid and die (which should be an okay thing to have happen in a fast paced game) you'll probably have resources to do it again. Also: PLEASE do not comment on this until we've implemented it and actually tried it. I had to take a moment to decide whether to disclose something we're only in the planning stage for because of some peoples' quickness to prejudge. I don't mind theoretical discussions about balance (enjoy even, if it's with someone keen), but the forum medium is not a place where it's productive.

I'll stop giving feedback after this.

Please do if it's making you angry. Wait till we're finished. And then wait even longer while playing until you see the big picture. We really didn't intend for people to get this involved before we finished precisely because seeing things in an incomplete state can lead to very unhappy people, which can lead to discouraged devs. Try to imagine from our perspective if we'd had feedback like this every step of the way in making Tremulous 1.0 and 1.1. And you seemd to enjoy the product of that; change isn't always bad.

Also, about the new chaingun spread, I would say it hurts the humans probably more than aliens would like you to believe, even with Unlagged. With some training, lag doesn't matter at all with a chaingun so Unlagged doesn't help. With an increase in spread it makes it even more impractical to kill an alien at range with it. Chaingun is a short range weapon.

With the new change I have in mind (disrupting the chaingun if the wielder takes damage, so skill is introduced in chaingunning via dodging, and so skilled aliens can fight them without taking as much damage) the spread should probably indeed go down, to at least where it was before so it can be used for chasing big aliens (although I can't say I noticed the difference of 200 at all). Note again that this has not been implemented yet, no one can test it yet, so here and now is probably not the spacetime for feedback on it.

Is there any chance that this HUD will also indicate whether you're inside/outside a regen aura and what strength that aura is?

Absolutely.

Yes, but to get poison and basigas you need S2, and that's not happening with these dretches and unlagged. Aliens are nerfed, face it. The game was better as 1.1, and personally, I hope that these changes stay on tjw and SATGNU. Aliens are meant to be able to control the map and crack bases. Humans are meant to use teamwork to fight them off. Aliens are the hunters, humans are they prey, it should stay that way.

If you feel the balance was perfect in 1.1 then you're going to have to fork the code to keep playing it with all the non-gameplay improvements. We're making 1.2 because we weren't finished with 1.1 (duh). Things are going to keep changing until we're finally satisfied and we knew from the beginning that this would upset vocal conservatives, but we also decided then not to let that stop us. Instead of trying to convince us (me, really) that your way is right, maybe you should start looking around for like-minded people interested in a backport.

Alternatively you could learn how to actually persuade people, that's handy in a lot of life's situations.

[temple]

2 questions:
How are aliens supposed to attack the human base anymore?
Without regeneration, what is the advantage of the alien team?

Strategically, the alien game relies on humans failing.  Aliens don't have any proactive way to take humans out. Unlagged has everyone dealing more damage.  Turret range and damage has them killing big or slow aliens.  And if you do manage to escape the human base, you have to survive the long journey all the way back to your base to regenerate.  Which that doesn't happen often because a chasing human can finish you off too easily.  Even humans get a medikit and sprint.  Aliens get to pray no one chases them.

I was so embarrassed when I killed about 3 humans in the base with a dretch and got totally owned by the new turrets when I tried it with a goon.   I know how to play a goon.  I'm damn good.  But even attacking turrets are risky because they hit farther.  Therefore, when you are trying to get away, the turret can get some extra hits in.  More powerful hits at that!

I don't know what the fuck anymore with the alien team.

And Heaven help the alien team when humans get chainguns and battlesuits.  Its a wrap once humans realize how much more useful that combo is.  Can't attack the base, can move around the map without getting hurt and having to run back to your base.

Good tyrants used to battlesuit/chaingunners out.  Now good tyrants are trying to relearn trampling and swiping.

But I will tell you want makes me angry...
No chomping while pouncing?  That's some TJW specific hate.

[Plague Bringer]

Okay, I'm all for these changes. I like the whole idea except alien's lame regen. These changes are simpily coming at us too quick. Everyone is going to be noobs again and as temple said, we're going to have to relearn alot of skills. If you slowly added these changes as then the community would better adjust to them. It's like taking a fish out of the water and asking him to adapt to life on land, it will die, and so will the Tremulous community if these changes come at them to quick.

How's THAT for persuasion?

[temple]

And I know the whole point of the changes...

You want aliens to work better as a team.  But nerfing tyrants and making the humans stronger isn't the solution.

Why?
Because when I switch teams and playing humans, nothing is going to stop me.  Hell, only tyrants can stop me now.  When the good human players come out the woodwork and start playing humans,  you will see the imbalance.

Between 2 decent teams, games are close enough as is.  But the human team as lost nothing.  The alien has lost a lot.  The tyrant needed a change but this is just over and beyond what I expected.

[David]

alien regen? go adv basi.
watch what happens to the hummie base when the tyrants heal 3 times the speed they used to.

and mara zap!
I love the new mara!

you need to relearn some stuff.

and I can dretch up evo's faster on TJW's than anywhere else.
or go basi, grab somone, and get evo for assisting.

[whitebear]

I honestly haven't tested this yet (beacouse of my hard disk crashed on my gaming computer ) but what I see in comments and after looking up the change list i come to conclusion that human base defences have been taken up too much in line of damage & range. Aliens seem to lose the point of being alien. Things I love being alien is their movement speed and how they can move by using walls and such plus the regeneration that allows them to use whole map like it was infested by them. Also basilisk should not be the class with healing aura since its the one that should be silent assasin and I can't get my self to fit with idea of assasin medic. If you want a healing class give it to granner or make new one.
Now to the good points since i've sounded like flamethrower.
I like the idea you are building up with tyrant charge *hears blood and flesh squishing between wall and tyrant*. Basilisk gas idea is fantastic (I never found the hurting gas usefull).
Then some ideas that ran through my mind.
After seeing many comments about the healing aura I got an idea of new class or modification to an alien class that could come with many difrent auras (random or chosen like classes) that would give them self an ability (like faster regeneration, cloaking, poisonus claws, vampirism etc.) and share it with others of same class so that larger groups of this class would have many abilities while loners would be... well.. alone  :wink:
Or mibie give all current classes some short of ability by default that would be shared everyone near them.
Examples:

Granner - Armor (for aliens in base du'h)
Drech - Speed
Basilisk - Poison Attacks
Adv Basilisk - Cloaking
Marauderer - Vampirism
Adv Marauderer - Attack Speed
Dragoon - Attack Range
Adv Dragoon - Attack Damage
Tyrant - Regeneration