TJW new version of Tremulous

[Plague Bringer]

Aliens + Teamwork = Bad

IMO

Aliens are bounty hunters, they're supposed to be strong warriors that can fend for themselves. I agree that aliens should have some teamwork considering they basically have a hive mind, but from what I've seen, alien teamwork doesn't work unless it's an endgame tyrant rush (Trem 1.1). Aliens just aren't meant for teamwork. If you want both teams using teamwork, make hummies vs hummies, but I just think that aliens should stay as they were, one man (beast) armys.

[tuple]

No offense Whitebear, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE play these changes for a couple days before remarking.  These changes WILL require a change of strategy, alien and human (based on what I've played).  They will require strategy that you and I are not presently aware of, and may not even be planned, but will grow out of the changes.  But you have to play to find out how the changes will really affect the matches.

Temple, a basi just outside of human base can gas any follower and the pursuit will pretty much halt, not to mention that it will be the place where all the other aliens are waiting, healing and more than happy for the free evo  Sure the human can somewhat still follow, but their aim goes all to hell (except Wiggity, darn you wiggity! )

[techhead]

Anyone try the new Painsaw yet?
In the last version I played, it had the range of a Basilisk swipe.
Not only does it make chasing down aliens with it even easier, it also makes the flamethrower a complete waste of money for hunting anything but a Marauder.
Then again, it probably was tweaked again since the last time I played.

EDIT: Also, if aliens are to be more base dependent, they also need stronger bases. The alien building hitpoints are pitiful compared to human defenses.

For reference:

Alien Structures:
Overmind 750 hp
Egg 250 hp
Acid Tube 125 hp
Barricade 200 hp
Trapper 50 hp
Hive 125 hp
Hovel 375 hp

Human Structures:
Reactor 930 hp
Telenode 310 hp
Medistation 190 hp
Turret 190 hp
Armory 280 hp 1.1.0 (420 hp current tjw's)
Repeater 250 hp
Defense Computer 190 hp
Tesla Generator 210 hp

[whitebear]

No offense Whitebear, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE play these changes for a couple days before remarking.

I know... I just kinda commented with basis of reading change log... I will try these changes tomorrow or friday when my new hard disk arives. I won't take any offence of post nice as that ^^

About current (1.1.0) team work:
Human either have 2-4 players that know each other from past games bit better and then 2-3 others tag along them and work as squad while couple of them press taunt here and there OR there is clan members that do same drill OR they use team speak. Ofcource there is one more method where Some one yels "RUSH!" and everyone runs from base and find it minute later raped by few dragoons and tyrants that came from other way.
Alien Team work seem to base on the "RUSH!" yel but mostly aliens just wait around the corners attacking with hit & run method using turns while other one attacks other one heals from last attack.

Can we please have some squad system using GUI menus and voice menus?

[Plague Bringer]

If you think trem needs more teamwork, put in a voice chat system. Have the ability to mute others out of your speakers and add antiflood control of course, but this is what we need, not broken Tyrants and Lucis.

[whitebear]

And you think rts game does not need teamwork among the units?
The game gets your adrenaline pumbing when you are able to cordinate attack well enough destroy s3 base with single wave. I've was able to do some thing near enough one twice in all time i've played trem. Once on human and once on aliens.
Both requierd TeamSpeak beacouse there were no sound menu for basic manuvers.
If you have ever played MOHAA (Medal Of Honor: Alied Assault, q3 engine game) You know how much teamwork gives you advanage over loners.

[Plague Bringer]

Aliens seem to play better alone. Also, I suggested an ingame chat in my last post

[tuple]

If you think trem needs more teamwork, put in a voice chat system. Have the ability to mute others out of your speakers and add antiflood control of course, but this is what we need, not broken Tyrants and Lucis.

Post about it when you have the beta ready

[Plague Bringer]

If you think trem needs more teamwork, put in a voice chat system. Have the ability to mute others out of your speakers and add antiflood control of course, but this is what we need, not broken Tyrants and Lucis.

Post about it when you have the beta ready

 :evil:

[[A]]

Aliens + Teamwork = Bad

IMO

Aliens are bounty hunters, they're supposed to be strong warriors that can fend for themselves. I agree that aliens should have some teamwork considering they basically have a hive mind, but from what I've seen, alien teamwork doesn't work unless it's an endgame tyrant rush (Trem 1.1). Aliens just aren't meant for teamwork. If you want both teams using teamwork, make hummies vs hummies, but I just think that aliens should stay as they were, one man (beast) armys.

Biggest shit ever ...

I dont know what kind of players you have in your clan or what kind of clan you play with, but alien teamplay rules more than alone skilled aliens.

Stop playing ffa men and try to play war vs serious clan.

[Plague Bringer]

I was in a clanwar (some time ago, with my last clan), and in my experience, yes, alien teamwork works, but not when it is forced upon the team like it is being with these changes.

[[A]]

On this point i m totaly agree.

[Mad_Joe]

On aliens being solitary...

Personally, I agree with that aliens should be powerful beings able to defend themselves. However, if you want them to be totally solitary, you run into a logical problem. Aliens would be much too overpowered if only one alien was a match for a group of humans, let alone if aliens were able to assault a human base by themselves.

Right now, a lone alien has a pretty big advantage over a lone human, provided they are at the same level of upgrades (dretch/basic human, tyrant/bsuit, etc.). Provided they maintain that an alien, outside of the human base, is still a threat to a lone human, I'm fine with the aliens. It'd be nice to have them completely self-sufficient, but then they'd probably be too overpowered.

[Plague Bringer]

The aliens seem perfect in 1.1.0, self dependant, that's the word. Aliens are interdependant when they choose to be, but they dont need to be, and again, I dont think they should be.

[David]

I want to thank Norfenstein and TJW for all the hard work they have been doing to better tremulous.

Persionaly I think all the changes have good.
They require a differnt playing style, and some have had a steep learning curve, but in overall I think tremulous 1.2 will be better and more balanced.

Also, to all the people complaining about 'enforced teamwork'.  Its a team game.  Go play quake 3 death match.  The whole point of team games is teamwork.  If your not going to work with each other, then there is no point there being teams is there?  If you want tremulous death match, make a mod, or quit playing.  No one is forcing you to play.

[Plague Bringer]

Humans have teamwork, aliens dont.

[Ceaser342]

Aliens=fast, flexible, and able to function with out a base.  This is reflected all over the game.  The alien's pitiful defense structures with out a trapper,  There fast to move and can get just about anywhere, and can regenerate.  To make them dependent on a base takes away there ability to wear down the humans.

You say all you need is a basi to regen.  A naked hummie can kill a unskilled basi which is bad for public games.  I think all these changes were due to the noobs yelling that aliens were over powered when in fact they just don't know how to play the game.

The overall formula is trem 1.1 was fine.  Some changes are nice like the tyrant charge.  However the rest of the changes have left aliens at the human's mercy.

[Norfenstein]

How are aliens supposed to attack the human base anymore?

Marauders, marauders, marauders. I think I've even managed to convince tjw to change the zap again just so it will be exactly suitable for attacking bases (turrets at least).

And Heaven help the alien team when humans get chainguns and battlesuits.

Working on it.

No chomping while pouncing? That's some TJW specific hate.

This was my change, not his. Being able to chomp while pouncing completely negated the pounce as a weapon (chomping actually disabled any damage from the pounce). Being able to chomp and pounce would be extremely overpowered. I think pouncing is more fun the headbiting, it's more balanced at stage 1 because it's not locational, and less prohibitively difficult for new players. Hence no biting while pouncing. The goon's primary weapon is supposed to be the pounce -- that's what makes it a unique class. The bite should only be for when one is already in very close range to a human (say, after pouncing one into a corner). Complaints about this sound to me like a refusal to change strategy.

And I know the whole point of the changes...

You want aliens to work better as a team.

No, you don't know the whole point of the changes, which is why you should stop playing until you start enjoying it again (may I suggest when we announce an open call for beta testers?). The only point of the changes in aggregate is to make the game more fun. Forcing aliens to use more teamwork was never a goal of ours. I think Dasprid had a misunderstanding somewhere along the line with our intention of making all the alien classes useful throughout the game, instead of only the goon and tyrant being useful like in 1.1. We realize that expecting too much teamwork on public servers (which is what we're balancing for) is a bad bad idea.

Okay, I'm all for these changes. I like the whole idea except alien's lame regen. These changes are simpily coming at us too quick. Everyone is going to be noobs again and as temple said, we're going to have to relearn alot of skills. If you slowly added these changes as then the community would better adjust to them. It's like taking a fish out of the water and asking him to adapt to life on land, it will die, and so will the Tremulous community if these changes come at them to quick.

That's the problem: these changes aren't meant for the community at large. They just happen to be open to everyone because that's how we do things, and people are playing with them. You're curious and like the game and want more and to see where we're going, but without seeing the finished product it might look, well, wrong. Other people can tilt their heads a little and think "yea, I can see it". I'm very sorry that the only solution is to wait, but would it have been better if we'd hidden all this and just said SOON until it was all done? Not to mention that to truly fix some things that are broken you have to break other things. So we can't have every release be fun and balanced. We try to avoid that of course (and there's still value in testing a broken game), but we're going for a finished product, not an entertaining circus of modifications.

How's THAT for persuasion?

You weren't really arguing anything there, but I'm extremely impressed, and glad.

I honestly haven't tested this yet...

Then honestly, your feedback isn't what I'm looking for . I'm having enough of a time fending off the people who actually have tried it (some thought-worthy ideas though).

And with regards to that, I want to thank temple and Plague Bringer (now that he's shown he can be polite ) for caring enough about Tremulous to get worked up over our little 1.2 experiment. We're not trying to ruin the game, but we are changing it. You will have to change with it too, and as we're working on it that means anyone following along is going to be, essentially, a perpetual noob. And it may be that you're too attached to 1.1 to ever like 1.2, but we'll have to wait to truly find out.

Also, thanks David (and everyone else mentioning praise). We know a lot of people like the changes, but they don't have much reason to speak out.

[Plague Bringer]

Hmm, this is an interesting point:

...make it (the tyrant's charge) so you have to use it immediately after charging up so it's not possible to just sit behind a door or corner and instantly kill anything that comes in front of you.

The Tyrant's hold-down-and-release-when-ready charge (and a more powerful one at that) completely goes against this statement. Who's idea was this new charge? tjw's or Norfenstein's?

[Lakitu7]

Hmm, this is an interesting point:

...make it (the tyrant's charge) so you have to use it immediately after charging up so it's not possible to just sit behind a door or corner and instantly kill anything that comes in front of you.

The Tyrant's hold-down-and-release-when-ready charge (and a more powerful one at that) completely goes against this statement. Who's idea was this new charge? tjw's or Norfenstein's?

You still have to use it within a few seconds and stopping movement loses the charge. That's hardly counter to "not possible to sit behind a door or corner."

[Plague Bringer]

I didnt know that much.

[Plague Bringer]

This is not a gameplay suggestion at all but, whatever. When making a name with colors, the ^# counts towards the maximum character limit. (ex - ^1{^3MMD^1}Bringer{^3L1^1} counts as 21 (?) characters, while {MMD}Bringer{L1} only counts as 16) It's really annoying when you're trying to color you name the way you want but you cant because the color codes wont fit. Perhaps in the next version color codes wont count towards the max character limit of a name, unless tehre is a reason for this, and if there is, what is it?

[kevlarman]

This is not a gameplay suggestion at all but, whatever. When making a name with colors, the ^# counts towards the maximum character limit. (ex - ^1{^3MMD^1}Bringer{^3L1^1} counts as 26 characters, while {MMD}Bringer{L1} only counts as 16) It's really annoying when you're trying to color you name the way you want but you cant because the color codes wont fit. Perhaps in the next version color codes wont count towards the max character limit of a name, unless tehre is a reason for this, and if there is, what is it?

the ^'s take up space in memory, so they have to count towards the limit

[Plague Bringer]

Damn. Is it possible to increase the character limit +1 everytime a ^ is added or something? I doubt it .

[Superpie]

/name ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well erm... You get the picture.

[temple]

I want changes.  I'm dead bored of Tremulous.  These changes are fine but they will unbalance a game that was pretty closed to balanced already.

What I'm missing here is 2 major points:



Survival.  How are aliens to survive anymore or prevent humans from advancing on their base?  

Humans are long ranged, aliens are close ranged.  Without regeneration or increased hit points, aliens are weak against pot shots (i.e. humans just shooting from a distance without committing to an attack).

The best defense is a good offense.   The alien offense is limp without regeneration.  Humans will quickly dominate quickly if these changes hit active servers.  

"Have a basilisk around to regenerate your health" is what you will say.  That answer is unsatisfactory because humans will learn to hunt down basilisks first.  Basilisks aren't in the best position to defend themselves as is.  They are white and have to run or wall walk to evade.  Not only that, but basilisks still have issues with getting team killed or team killing others(TJW and I were both basilisks and we were killing each other).  

Suggestion: Give the dragoon the regen aura simply because it can defend itself a lot better than a basilisk.  You could justify it by saying that dragoons cost more.  



Alien offense
The human has

• Battlesuits and chainguns
• Battlesuits and lucifer cannons
• Battery pack and pulse rifle
• Shotguns

as the engines to drive their offense.  Lasguns, massdrivers, painsaws, and flamerthrowers are good in certain situations but they will never have the force and flexibility as the previous weapons/armor combinations.  

What do aliens have?

They used to have dragoons and tyrants.  What you have said is 'Basilisks and Marauders'.  You can give basilisks and marauders all the damage in the world, but they will never have ability to drive an offense like dragoons and tyrants.  

People will play them marauders and basilisks more because the changes have makes them as useful as a tyrant or a dragoon.  There is no question about tyrants needing a change.  Sadly, marauders and basilisks cannot replace dragoons and tyrants.  

The current hit points of alien classes do not work with the 1.20 changes.  Basilisks' regen aura isn't enough.



Norfenstein
Marauders, marauders, marauders. I think I've even managed to convince tjw to change the zap again just so it will be exactly suitable for attacking bases (turrets at least).
That silly, here's why:

• Turrets shoot further, outside and inside the base.  More turrets will be shooting at a marauder due to this range.
• Humans bases can be built in open areas away from walls.  No wall jumping.
• Marauders are very slow when not jumping.  How can they dodge inside a base with turrets that never miss?
• 1 Chaingun.  Either kill the marauder in the base or catch 'em on the way out.  

Marauders have always been suicide units for attacking the human base.  They aren't the most optimal class for doing so unless you have evolution points to burn.  

Norfenstein [About Chainguns]
Working on it.
Okay.

Norfenstein
This was my change, not his. Being able to chomp while pouncing completely negated the pounce as a weapon (chomping actually disabled any damage from the pounce). Being able to chomp and pounce would be extremely overpowered. I think pouncing is more fun the headbiting, it's more balanced at stage 1 because it's not locational, and less prohibitively difficult for new players. Hence no biting while pouncing. The goon's primary weapon is supposed to be the pounce -- that's what makes it a unique class. The bite should only be for when one is already in very close range to a human (say, after pouncing one into a corner). Complaints about this sound to me like a refusal to change strategy.
How can a dragoon chomp a human running and dodging?  Not every map is tight hallways.  

Pounce is balanced by armor.  

• It is a little weak against light armor
• More weak against light armor and helmet
• barely a threat with a battlesuit.  

Dragoons need pounce to deliver their chomps.  Pounce is a weapon and transportation, at least to skilled players.  This is like saying humans can't shoot while moving.  This change would help humans in Stage 1 but neuter dragoons in Stage 2 and Stage 3.   Are dragoons supposed to be viable?  

Norfenstein
No, you don't know the whole point of the changes, which is why you should stop playing until you start enjoying it again (may I suggest when we announce an open call for beta testers?). The only point of the changes in aggregate is to make the game more fun. Forcing aliens to use more teamwork was never a goal of ours. I think Dasprid had a misunderstanding somewhere along the line with our intention of making all the alien classes useful throughout the game, instead of only the goon and tyrant being useful like in 1.1. We realize that expecting too much teamwork on public servers (which is what we're balancing for) is a bad bad idea.
I'm not really sure of what's going on anymore.

• Tremulous 1.10 was unfinished.
• Alien need more teamwork.  
• Aliens shouldn't be just goons and tyrants.  
• The game needs to be more fast paced.

Right now, I think a lot of changes have been made on personal preference because its hard to justify some of them. Some of the changes in the human base seem like personal 'wouldn't it be cool if...' improvements.  

It pisses me off because it feels like I'm playing someone's mod.  ...And these changes will become a mod if you aren't being serious and taking an honest look at them.  Its going to be like Counter Strike:  Half the players will playing the old version and the other half will play the current version.  That's bad for an already small game.

[DarkRogue]

heh trem originally WAS a mod so technically you are playing someons mod temple.

PErsonally these changes are really getting me pumped for 1.2, I won't suggest changes since I haven't tried tjw server yet. Would rather play the finished version when its ready than spoil the fun But in regards to the chainsuit issue norf, have you guys possibly considered changing the chaingun to act more like a minigun complete with spin up/spin down cycles? Might not be as effective if it took time before it started unloading its payload and took longer to start firing again once you stop? Could potentially turn the chaingun from an uber spread rifle into an actual chaingun...

[Norfenstein]

These changes are fine but they will unbalance a game that was pretty closed to balanced already.

I can't disagree more. Tremulous was broken. "Balance" was only achieved by sacrificing fun, which to me is unacceptable. And I don't think it's possible for you to accurately predict how these changes will affect them game when even I can't do so all the time. We're not afraid to change things we've already changed when it's obvious they're not working, or even when they could just be better. That alone should indicate that none of us know exactly how 1.2 will turn out.

How are aliens to survive anymore or prevent humans from advancing on their base?

Not survive as much and allow humans to advance better (or just play with different strategies)? With funds earned from destroying structures, dying won't matter as much for aliens, and before now everyone was complaining about humans camping in their bases. Now you're complaining about them advancing too much?

The alien offense is limp without regeneration

We do not want alien "offense" to be "waiting outside the human base". And that's the only thing we've taken away with reducing regeneration outside of creep.

Marauders have always been suicide units for attacking the human base. They aren't the most optimal class for doing so unless you have evolution points to burn.

You haven't made the connection between the turret change (including the most recent one) and marauders being base attackers yet?

Dragoons need pounce to deliver their chomps.

Pounce first, then chomp. I see great goon players do this already and it's almost as overpowered as flying headbites.

Right now, I think a lot of changes have been made on personal preference because its hard to justify some of them. Some of the changes in the human base seem like personal 'wouldn't it be cool if...' improvements.

I think I can justify every one of them (or could when they were made, it's not like I can remember everything we've done). Many of the new feature are indeed "wouldn't it be cool" because we're trying to make the game more fun. Fun requires balance and balance is worthless without fun.

It pisses me off because it feels like I'm playing someone's mod. ...And these changes will become a mod if you aren't being serious and taking an honest look at them. Its going to be like Counter Strike: Half the players will playing the old version and the other half will play the current version. That's bad for an already small game.

We're taking this extremely seriously. No change is made simply on a whim, I do in fact have to justify changes to the other devs, and I don't do so with just with my extensive experience, but with acutal logic. The community isn't going to be divided and destroyed because of any changes because we already don't all play together. Many people pick one or two servers on which they play exclusively and we have over a hundred servers. Our exchanges don't seem to be getting anywhere, temple, so I'm going to stop on my end until more changes have been made for you to comment on.

But in regards to the chainsuit issue norf, have you guys possibly considered changing the chaingun to act more like a minigun complete with spin up/spin down cycles? Might not be as effective if it took time before it started unloading its payload and took longer to start firing again once you stop? Could potentially turn the chaingun from an uber spread rifle into an actual chaingun...

I want to reduce the spread. I envision the chaingun as a weapon for chasing down big aliens (i.e. what it's most used for now, just less lame). I figured just adding a spinup time (or a cooldown time for that matter) wouldn't help any because, really, battlesuits just turn it on and leave it on until the alien is dead. But I don't want to take that spammability away from the gun, it just needs some skill involved, and the only thing I could come up with is if the alien actually stays and fights, and the human can't dodge well enough, the constant fire of the chaingun should be nullified somehow. I'm open to other suggestions on how to keep the chaingun in its current role as a big alien chaser (which, btw, is weirdly different before humans get battlesuits; no other weapon changes so much across stage ups... I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that) without the lameness.

[Stof]

Consider the chaingun+bs combo as beeing an entirely new S3 weapon

As for a possible change for the chaingun, what about spin up time and forcing the player to stop firing if it takes some damage. For example, more than 20 pts of damage at a time stuns you slightly and makes you start the spin up procedure again.

[tuple]

Consider the chaingun+bs combo as beeing an entirely new S3 weapon

As for a possible change for the chaingun, what about spin up time and forcing the player to stop firing if it takes some damage. For example, more than 20 pts of damage at a time stuns you slightly and makes you start the spin up procedure again.

Just a thought, have the chaingun heat up and overheat?  Not so fast that you couldn't chase down big aliens, but so that you wouldn't want to run it constantly and find yourself outside of base with a weapon that you can't use for a bit.

edit: though I fear that would encourage Norf's devestating blaster attack :p
Funny, some may actually think I'm kidding