Long range _ short range tactics

[jr2]

I've noticed that a lot of Human players tend to not use the long range of the turrets properly... in other words, they tend to cluster their turrets around their reactor...
or, if they do move out a bit, they have turrets pointing at a wall, instead of in the hallway, where they might actually do damage before being smashed to the ground.  

Of course, the alien players love it... in the first case, they can damage the human base, then run and hide... in the second, they just have to wait a little longer to destroy the turrets, as they can run and hid in that case as well.  

Because aliens recharge their health (and even if they didn't), it's a good idea to place turrets so they have a field of fire clear out to their maximum range.

See the pics and video I linked to for examples of my point...  which is that when turrets can't fire until the aliens are smack in front of them, you may as well forfeit... it'll save feeding the aliens.  

There is a reason machine guns are mounted on top of hills, not in the bottom of valleys.  It is because range = killing/high cost to take the turret location.  

If your turrets are placed correctly, you can actually go on the offensive and quite possibly win.  (When the turrets are placed the way I like them, it's usually a lot easier to play... you're not always running around your base trying to repair it and kill the alien rants swarming right outside the door... thank goodness some builders seem to have the same ideas as I do; after all, it's common sense.)

In some servers, when I try to fix this, I am hindered by 2 or 3 builders who like to cluster.  I can't re-build until my timer expires, so they rebuild back in the old location and call me a "deconner"... I try to explain my point,then they either try to ban me or remove my building ability (even though other players do understand... most of the time the vote fails).

15 MB video taken with FRAPS (FileFront)... guess who wins that round.  XD













Comments?  Criticism?  

[Survivor]

Do the alien classes dragoon and marauder mean anything to you? The purpose of those base defences is to keep the reactor and spawns up at the least. When they're way out there they are not covering those structures. Any half decent alien team could swoop in as marauders and destroy some vital structures and weaken you seriously. Come 1.2 it becomes even easier to evade those turrets you placed because they get a spinup time.

Also we've had this discussion for ages now. The above is those threads summed up.

[Diggs]

Most new players make the same mistake or place them as you do thinking the turrets are to kill aliens.  As was just said, the turrets are there to protect your structures (armory, reactor and spawns).  If there are not 2-3 turrets in range of each of these structures, your team won't have that structure for long.  Also, lone turrets are useless.  They need to be clustered to help protect each other.  I guess I don't understand what makes you think the aliens will stop at your turrets to get killed and not just jump over and keep going to an all you can eat feast of unprotected reactor, arm and spawns?

Again, this has been brought up many times before by new players, that just won't listen to experienced players in-game.  Why they think they understand more in a few games than players that have played hundreds of games I can't quite figure out.

[Caveman]

heh, take it easy on him, at least he did spent some time thinking and planing.
Going from wrong data can only lead to wrong conclusions.

While it really looks for the beginner dretch to impossible to take out a turret, any advanced dretch player can take out those turrets in 3 or 4 runs so that the base is unprotected for even the lovely basi to take out the reactor

[Lord Baxter]

weak, im a noob alien and even i could pick that apart

[A_Total_noob]

jr2, I appreciate the thought which has gone into this.
I..well, I have to agree with both sides actually.
You see, its a deathwish to just spam turrets infront of your base (Unless its a 100BP server), but it is too to just make small turret clusters. This is acceptable @ S2, but not at S3.

If at S3 you are going to make a outpost, a small cluster of 2-3 wont cut it.You need a full on distant recovery station with a medipad, armoury, and atleast 4 turrets.
Otherwise, you will find that repeated goon and tyrant rushes WILL down that outpost.
By placing a medi, you are also guaranteeing that hummies will swarm around that location, so it makes it all the harder for the enemy to destroy the area.

I view it like this - either spam your base with turrets and pray, or make heavy offensive outposts with 4+ turrets + ATLEAST  a medi.

[n00b pl0x]

or, if they do move out a bit, they have turrets pointing at a wall, instead of in the hallway,

i was under the false impression that turrets could spin.

[ShadowNinjaDudeMan]

or, if they do move out a bit, they have turrets pointing at a wall, instead of in the hallway,

i was under the false impression that turrets could spin.

Yet another poor player fooled, you are actually just walking round and round the turret, making an illusion of it spinning, course it spins.

I just try and stagger groups of turrets in corridors.

[TriedtoDestroyMetal]

Do the alien classes dragoon and marauder mean anything to you? The purpose of those base defences is to keep the reactor and spawns up at the least. When they're way out there they are not covering those structures. Any half decent alien team could swoop in as marauders and destroy some vital structures and weaken you seriously. Come 1.2 it becomes even easier to evade those turrets you placed because they get a spinup time.

Also we've had this discussion for ages now. The above is those threads summed up.

I disagree.. I've seen some setups that had well-placed repeaters, packed with turrets, and at least one good player to support the outpost.. Was deadly hard to get past.

[_Equilibrium_]

if aliens are below stage 3, a couple forward turrets may not hurt if you have someone always defending the base. however, if aliens are stage 3, all turrets should be near reac and spawns.

[Evlesoa]

Ok i think what you dont get is, the turrets now have 2 problems...

1. The pitiful damage the turret has is WAYYY too low to actually be a loner...
If the damage was doubled, and the startup time was about .8 of a second or even .7 or .6, it would be something work it... A tyrant in an open space can just circle a turret because aliens move faster than it spins. Each time you are out of it's range it starts to start up again. This is really bad...

2. Their reaction time is crap. Ive taken out 2 turrets in 2-3 runs before because all i do is run back and forth, and the turret cannot follow me, and it has no startup time... So startup, damage, and its reaction are all too slow...

When clustering turrets, a big punch comes from the group. Because they work in unison, and therefore making it easy to kill. If turrets had INSTANT reaction, but a startup time, and doubled damage, this would be great... even not double, but put up to 5 instead of 4, or to 6... This way you can spread them, or increasing rate of fire or something... Problem is, aliens moving FASTER than a turret can follow them. If the turret locked on, and always followed them, that would be kickass...

[Survivor]

Do the alien classes dragoon and marauder mean anything to you? The purpose of those base defences is to keep the reactor and spawns up at the least. When they're way out there they are not covering those structures. Any half decent alien team could swoop in as marauders and destroy some vital structures and weaken you seriously. Come 1.2 it becomes even easier to evade those turrets you placed because they get a spinup time.

Also we've had this discussion for ages now. The above is those threads summed up.

I disagree.. I've seen some setups that had well-placed repeaters, packed with turrets, and at least one good player to support the outpost.. Was deadly hard to get past.

Yes obviously. So let's go over it again. It's not about the get past part. Any half decent alien team can swoop past any non-compact defence. Also the words repeater and outpost. Meaning to me it's so far away from your base that there most likely is an alternate path to your base in most maps beside the fact that you left your base mostly undefended. I'm not saying 1 or 2 turrets out away from base early won't lessen the load. But packing it all far away from base is plain stupid in any case.

[Raytray]

Well see, it really depends on the amount of build points.  With enough build points out posts are a definate must.  From the screenshots shown from the original post, I am sure that there was more then default build points.

[Voobman]

Well, you can space the turrets for defence also, just don't clump them up so easily, because its not "running away from rant" friendly and its probably dead obvious. Instead my friend, why not KEEP them at the base, but give each of them overlapping (read: not side by side next to each other) fields of fire? Even that can stop the most large rush... for a while.

Either way, its satisfiying to put turrets onthose L shaped thingies on tremor and watch as a mara dies thikining it can solo the reactor.... Oh, and height with turrets makes it much harder to kill... and defense goes up...with a clearer field of fire...

Uhhh am I totally wrong guys?

(Oh, and if the base is near doors/vents, try to put the turrets against the wall, next to the door. It makes it seem less deadly... But for vents, make sure the turrets are out of sight when anything is in the vent... I can;t help laughing because red dots, cover all buildings...)

[jr2]

Hey, thx for all the replies.    
First off, I'm sure anyone who has played more than once realizes turrets are no good on their own... I hesitate to even leave two together even if the aliens are on s2.

I like a least three (in a triangle formation), preferably more.  And when I mentioned repeaters, I mean so that you can build turrets guarding the hallways that lead to the room that your base is in.  (Usually, not more than two, thank goodness.)  I think the best way to do that is to have the turrets able to fire at the aliens whilst they charge up the hall at them.

However, based on your responses, I paid attention next time I played... I can see the point about the aliens charging past them, as they often do.  The problem is, IMHO, the turrets damage sort of sucks vs the larger aliens, and the turrets have a ridiculously short range.  (The alien is on the other side of the room, for goodness sake, you might want to bloody well shoot it!.. I can now see how aliens are able to overwhelm/jump over the turrets: they don't fire until it's too late!

I have linked videos so those of you who have high speed can see how I set up a base... however, PC$Sundance entered the game, and said he had better ideas, and since I"m a n00b, I let him take over; the last vid is of his setup.  (Not bad... but the aliens still won.  I'm sure they would have with my setup just the same... :p )

Oh, and the reason I have turrets out away so far is to prevent the aliens from getting anywheres near the base, which, as I now realize, is useless; the only reasonable option seems to be to have a few crack shots in a halfway decent assault team.  The thing I notice is the aliens like to take down 1 or 2 vital structures, (armoury, medistation) then leave before they can be killed (this is when someone else is building; my method just seems to delay them for like 2 minutes... no use) and of course if they get the reactor down, you might as well bend over and kiss your ass goodbye, unless you get lucky or the aliens aren't all competent.

And, of course, I would prefer to have a two or more tiered defense, with turrets guarding the hallways leading to the base, (4+ to each), turrets guarding the doors / entrances themselves (2-3+ each), and maybe 5 turrets, preferrably 8, mixed in with or closely surrounding the base.  But  the BP's always seem to suck. (lol even for the aliens; I never am comfortable without three acid tubes over every door, + two on the sides, and a trapper(s) on the ceiling over the doors).

It would seem that the BP (and time limits) on most servers is geared toward Halo-style combat, with less emphasis on strategy; just make sure your base can't be immediately nuked with one rush and you've done a fine job.. hmph.  

These are around 5 MB each:

http://files.filefront.com/tremulous_1_2007_04_08_190avi/;7185981;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/tremulous_1_2007_04_08_191avi/;7185982;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/tremulous_1_2007_04_08_198avi/;7185983;/fileinfo.html

http://files.filefront.com/tremulous_1_2007_04_08_190avi/;7186107;/fileinfo.html

[Voobman]

OH SNAP turrets now have a spin time... i like 1.1 better...

[jr2]

They're already emasculated, why bother totally crippling them?

[_Equilibrium_]

And, of course, I would prefer to have a two or more tiered defense, with turrets guarding the hallways leading to the base, (4+ to each), turrets guarding the doors / entrances themselves (2-3+ each), and maybe 5 turrets, preferrably 8, mixed in with or closely surrounding the base.  But  the BP's always seem to suck. (lol even for the aliens; I never am comfortable without three acid tubes over every door, + two on the sides, and a trapper(s) on the ceiling over the doors).

i found your problem. you are playing on servers with extreme amount of BPS. you realize, in normal games (and clanwars), there will only be 100bp, making your setup impossible.

[beerbitch]

Never underestimate the value of a lone turret as bait to attract goons who like killing them.

[Diggs]

And, of course, I would prefer to have a two or more tiered defense, with turrets guarding the hallways leading to the base, (4+ to each), turrets guarding the doors / entrances themselves (2-3+ each), and maybe 5 turrets, preferrably 8, mixed in with or closely surrounding the base.  But  the BP's always seem to suck. (lol even for the aliens; I never am comfortable without three acid tubes over every door, + two on the sides, and a trapper(s) on the ceiling over the doors).

i found your problem. you are playing on servers with extreme amount of BPS. you realize, in normal games (and clanwars), there will only be 100bp, making your setup impossible.

In other words, after reactor, armory, medi, and two spawns (which are usually considered mandatory), you have 7 turrets to work with.

What other US servers are running extreme build points these days except SST?  (I don't mean unlimited BPs either as those are so lame to play on.)

[_Equilibrium_]

Dretchstorm ans S11 have more than usual i think. there are a few others as well. and darklurker's has 102, doesn't it?

[n00b pl0x]

averlanche i tink

[jr2]

In other words, after reactor, armory, medi, and two spawns (which are usually considered mandatory), you have 7 turrets to work with.

So, add a Defense computer, and upgrade to Teslas, and you pretty much suck?  The servers I play on, they always have 3-4 spawns, which I consider ridiculous, as I would rather blockade all entrances with quad turrets!    BTW, did anyone check out those vids I posted?  For a server with that amount of BP, is that setup okay?  What about PC$Sundance's setup?  How would you have set it up, given that amount of BP?

[Xonya]

You are missing an option.

How about building defence actually IN THE base so leet aliens won't be able to jump just into base and take it down....

[jr2]

Like this?
It didn't work very well... the aliens tend to pounce a few people, destroy 1 or two buildings, then rush out the door.  Then the next one comes in while the first is recouping in the hallway.

[Survivor]

Nah, xon is referring to what voobman also mentioned. Turrets in base not necessarily blocking the aliens from entering your base but letting them enter your base where their health will be dramatically torn down. Crossfire zones covering the important structures sums it up. But the weakness of this is the advanced dragoon. It makes for reasonable s1 and s2 bases usually but they really lose effectiveness when aliens get their sniper and most builders don't plan for that.

[jr2]

... so how do you plan for that?  I can see luring aliens into a killbox, but they have 350 - 400 health.  They expend 300 of it, whilst they tear out a few structures, and then they're gone (don't even bother getting in their way if you want to live, unless maybe you have a battlesuit and/or a lucy cannon).  Before you can do much else, the next alien runs around the corner to kill you.  I'm sure they (human builders / fighters) are making mistakes somewhere, but I fail to see where.  (Since long range isn't possible with these turrets - they certainly look capable of long range, though.)

[Survivor]

First of all the only aliens which have any chance of not being critically damaged in a crossfire zone are the marauders (because of being damn near unhittable) and the tyrant (high hp). The worst of the firezone is that it covers the structures at melee range, ergo: everything but adv goon's snipe. Also aliens are at their worst retreating. If you search back for one of my building topics you'll see that i mentioned that the best turret placement is the one where aliens are lured into view of other turrets if they want to attack just one. But also the one where the turrets block the tyrants from rampaging towards your critical structures.
Fact remains your base will always have a weakness, and it's the builder's/defenders' job of covering that weakness while the base slows down the other options. There simply is no perfect base.

[jr2]

Ah, thx.  BTW, I thought Dragoons had 350 hp, while Tyrants had 400 hp.  And the Dragoon can do trample damage too, IIRC... correct?  I've seen that before: they dance over your base, leaving in their wake smoking / destroyed buildings.  Half the time they make it out alive, too.

Anyways, I'm getting a bit better at maneuvering, so things are looking up to being more effective as a soldier... I still build once in a while, but I'm going to have to learn a bit more too, I think.

[Henners]

As survivor said, there is no perfect base. If there were it would be built by everyone everytime. Now people try different things, some work and some dont. Whats key is the players. If you are playing against people who rely on bashing down defences before the base then yes a "defensive line" tactic will work. However try that against me and I'll finish the game in under 5 minutes.

In my opinion the best defence is compactness and then serious offence. A good human team keeps the aliens on the ropes and doesnt allow a sustained attack on their base. Players, players players - buildings are a pathetic substitute.