Mod Idea - Juggernaut

[whitebear]

Heaven of Relics

How could you make this Trem-specific?

PowerUpGrades

player1, I think I owe you an apology. Over PMs I told you your idea wouldn't mesh with the game theme (and well it really doesn't!) but after seeing an implementation of it, frankly I think it could be very fun. :oops:

When we're talking about new gametypes we can assume the target audience are seasoned Trem veterans looking for a new twist. Their brains have already rewired to see bounding boxes in places of models so you can get away with breaking the theme a bit.

breaking the habit(?)
Why don't you just do something completely crazy like bubble gun that no-one agrees on. I'm sure that you'd become legend in seconds if you ain't yet.

Judgenaught could be pickup that killer of it could grab along but then again that is what relics are all about. 1 relic in middle of mach that makes the holder superior to all is pretty solo playing idea.

[Risujin]

player1, I think I owe you an apology. Over PMs I told you your idea wouldn't mesh with the game theme (and well it really doesn't!) but after seeing an implementation of it, frankly I think it could be very fun. :oops:

When we're talking about new gametypes we can assume the target audience are seasoned Trem veterans looking for a new twist. Their brains have already rewired to see bounding boxes in places of models so you can get away with breaking the theme a bit.

breaking the habit(?)
Why don't you just do something completely crazy like bubble gun that no-one agrees on. I'm sure that you'd become legend in seconds if you ain't yet.

Actually I did make something no one agrees on. I don't think I'm becoming a legend (in a good sense...) anytime soon for it though.

I ported UT2k3's Heaven of Relics to Tremulous. This is why I apologized to player1, because it's fairly close to his idea and probably even more out-of-theme. Problem is that, after playing a couple games I now realize that I was actually right in the beginning ... mods that break theme with Tremulous belong in a different game. Maybe if I'd made this for Warsow it would make sense but for Trem, it's just retarded.

However, I now have proof of this. Brave souls are invited to venture to "Risujin's Heaven of Relics mod" server. Bring a friend to frag or the relics won't spawn. Be warned though, this lolmod is just that, hardly worth the novelty. I have some screenshots.

[f0rqu3]

I said risujin would do it

[Plague Bringer]

So, the original Juggernaut idea, no pickups. Juggernaut is chosen at random? Although I do like the idea of the Juggernaut's assasin becoming the new Juggernaut, that will lead to imbalance as:

1. One team will have the Juggernaut, and if the Juggernaut was good enough to kill the last Juggernaut, it's doubtful he'll die with the new powers.

2. If we have two starting Juggernauts (one human and one alien) then one team could end up with both, same situation as above but twice as bad for the loosing team.

A solution for 2. is perhaps the team with both Juggernauts stops recieving free credits/evos?

New problem arises.

Juggernaut Camping:

I had suggested a damaging aura that expands from the Juggernaut if he stays in base for too long, do you guys like this idea? If so, should it damage structures, players, both?

[player1]

player1, I think I owe you an apology. Over PMs I told you your idea wouldn't mesh with the game theme (and well it really doesn't!) but after seeing an implementation of it, frankly I think it could be very fun. :oops:

When we're talking about new gametypes we can assume the target audience are seasoned Trem veterans looking for a new twist. Their brains have already rewired to see bounding boxes in places of models so you can get away with breaking the theme a bit.

breaking the habit(?)
Why don't you just do something completely crazy like bubble gun that no-one agrees on. I'm sure that you'd become legend in seconds if you ain't yet.

Actually I did make something no one agrees on. I don't think I'm becoming a legend (in a good sense...) anytime soon for it though.

I ported UT2k3's Heaven of Relics to Tremulous. This is why I apologized to player1, because it's fairly close to his idea and probably even more out-of-theme. Problem is that, after playing a couple games I now realize that I was actually right in the beginning ... mods that break theme with Tremulous belong in a different game. Maybe if I'd made this for Warsow it would make sense but for Trem, it's just retarded.

However, I now have proof of this. Brave souls are invited to venture to "Risujin's Heaven of Relics mod" server. Bring a friend to frag or the relics won't spawn. Be warned though, this lolmod is just that, hardly worth the novelty. I have some screenshots.

LOL'd

Can you leave that up for a couple of days? I have to take the MacBook in to have the SuperDrive fixed/replaced. All of those mods look fun.

TBH, I haven't played that much modded Trem. I was just responding to the idea of modding it with Deus Ex/UT/Q3a/Daikatana-influenced console-type arcade player levelups for the endgame. Just for certain conditions. When a game has gotten really long (over an hour), when it's already been Sudden Death for a while (SD +10 minutes), and when people start to call a lot of timevotes to distract from play (extendtime/reducetime callvote >2).

Also, Ris, would it be worth toning it down a bit, and making it dependent on destroying enemy structures, as well as making the PowerUps and UpGrades distinct and team-specific?

Maybe the Human Upgrades could also be structure-dependent (just Reload, Tesla Cannon, and Healthboost), just like the Alien ones (they'd be respectively, for destroying Acid Tubes, Barricades and Eggs). No icons or pickups required.

He who fires the final shot which destroys said structure gets the UpGrade (a one-time use which either reloads his weapon with some ammo, converts his weapon to the fabled Tesla Cannon, or gives him some kind of HealthBoost). The Tesla Cannon dies with the player, since Tremulous does not allow for battlefield pickups and dropped weapons or multiple carry, (beyond the blaster-and-one default). Reload would give you half of your total ammo, up to max carry. Tesla Cannon is the Lightning Gun. HealthBoost is half of total health up to full health (instant mini-medkit for destroying Egg). Tesla Cannon not available at Armoury, only awarded for destroying a Barricade/Trapper/Hive/Hovel (10 bp structure). Reload awarded for destroying an Acid Tube (for your weapon which is not your Blaster).

The Alien PowerUps would be awarded to the Alien player who destroys a Turret, Tesla or Telenode, whoever deals the final blow, again, no pickups or icons required, and woud be respectively: Strength, Speed, and Endurance. They could not be picked up by Humans (and Aliens cannot get Human UpGrades). Strength would give some added damage to the player's attack. Speed could either make the player move faster, or, ideally, make the player's reload time between melee attacks decrease - you could actually slash faster (dretches would have some kind of supersprint). Endurance would be akin to the HealthBoost in that you could either make the player invulnerable to damage for a certain period (Invulnerabilty) or have an additional armor value besides a health value (Shield) or you could simply make the player's health regenerate faster (Regen). Again, these would not be runes or icons, they would simply be a response by the Alien organism's hormones to the stimulus of having destroyed a structure. (echo: You destroyed a Turret. You have Strength!) These effects would be of short duration (say thirty seconds to three minutes) and again, no icons, he who destroys it gets the PowerUp.

Again, only in really long games, that are turning into a votefest, a campfest, or Rampage (I have nothing against Rampage, I just like variety). Only for destroying enemy structures (isn't that what Trem is all about?). What do you think of making it a little less over-the-top, team-oriented (we go attack their stuff, and we get new powers, it's a friggin' quest already, no-one can get two PowerUpgrades at the same time maybe so you might as well bring a buddy, it introduces RPG elements into RTS-oriented FPS).

The explication for the Human UpGrades is that the clones of Ked that are being telenoded to the battlefield have a built-in rewards system, using embedded nanite technology, which gives them a carrot for obeying the stick of their programming, under certain conditions (destroy stuff, get more bullets! destroy more stuff!)

[Plague Bringer]

I'd rather rampage or extreme sudden death over pickups. As Risujin and I have said, pickups are not Tremulous style. One of the tings that attracted me to Tremulous was the lack of pickups. If you want a game like that, play Halo, or Unreal, or Quake.

[player1]

On-Topic Mode Re-Engaged
Re: Juggernaut
OIC, well that way could be kewl, too.
First to spawn (or possibly, to kill) on each team becomes the Juggernaut.
Only one Juggernaut per team.
At the Juggernaut's death, modest Juggernaut powers awarded randomly to another player on same team (echo: You are the Juggernaut. Kill/Destroy! or The Juggernaut is dead. Long live the Juggernaut!).
Juggernaut powers, as originally suggested, somewhat modest (125% damage, 110% speed, 110-125% health/armor - times default, not in addition to).
TKing the Juggernaut only really of value on small servers (otherwise, one of your 13 to 26 teamates could be Juggernaut next).
Kill-whoring as Juggernaut wouldn't be wrong, it'd be your job. Tag, you're "It". Until you're dead, that is. Which will be soon, because friend and foe alike fear and envy you. (Your "Friendly" fire makes you a dangerous berserker). Get in the enemy base and open that can o' whoop-ass. The Juggernaut would be a TKing danger to his own team, in his own base (and probably catch a little "Friendly" return fire, too). Not to mention to his team's structures. One campy Jughead could ruin a team early.

Sorry about the double-post, I couldn't fit it all in one post. Talking about your idea and my idea, that is. I get the Juggernaut idea, now. Sorry to muck about with it.

Edit: Off topic - I was off double posting. Sup, Plague Bringer? Yeah, I would say no pickups required, if you destroy the structure, you get the ability. No icon, tokens, pickups, glowing balls of light, etc. He who destroys it get rewarded for doing so. Either one-time, or very briefly. Only during games that are already devolving or really long.

On topic - Likewise no pickups for Juggernaut. Agreed. Randomly assigned to living player on same team (or maybe next player to spawn?).

So Juggernaut (which allows one player per team to be Superman) is cool, but PowerUpGrades (which allows your whole team to be the Avengers) is not Tremlike enough for you?
 
PowerUpGrades encourages teamplay, and destroying enemy structures. Juggernaut encourages one player per team to go berserker. Even providing cover and support for Conan the TeamKiller is a pretty hard job. Any stray attack is deadlier, and the player is moving faster, and harder to kill (if you give armor/health boost).

It is a cool idea, though. I just don't see how's it's any more "thematically correct". I did provide you with a nice backstory tie-in though. How'd you like that? What, no "ty"? We pl0x pr0xies have to stick together. Brother....

As for the go-play-this-or-that game remark which gets tossed around so much, people who say it probably shouldn't be starting threads about modifying Tremulous. One could just as easily reply "Go play whatever game you got that Juggernaut idea from" and that would just be counter-productive, now wouldn't it? Offered in the spirit of plox-brotherliness. Brother....

[f0rqu3]

I'd rather rampage or extreme sudden death over pickups. As Risujin and I have said, pickups are not Tremulous style. One of the tings that attracted me to Tremulous was the lack of pickups. If you want a game like that, play Halo, or Unreal, or Quake.

I watched you playing q3; you fail at picking up pickups

[Plague Bringer]

I have never played Quake, I am also awaiting many flames.

It's the whole pickup part of powerupgrades that's just plain not Tremulous style IMO. Also, I just dont like the idea of powerupgrades, that's just me though, alot of people seem to like it. I dont see why Juggernauts would be TK'd or get TK'd any more then other players though, it'd be like TK'ing a lucisuit if the rest of your team is riflemen.

[player1]

I have never played Quake, I am also awaiting many flames.

It's the whole pickup part of powerupgrades that's just plain not Tremulous style IMO. Also, I just dont like the idea of powerupgrades, that's just me though, alot of people seem to like it. I dont see why Juggernauts would be TK'd or get TK'd any more then other players though, it'd be like TK'ing a lucisuit if the rest of your team is riflemen.

I don't get your lucisuit if you die. On a small server, say 4-5 players per side, if you die, my chances of becoming Jughead are pretty good. Also, hanging around with a luci in base is generally not recommended. And that lucisuit better watch out if the rest of his team are riflemen. They fry pretty easy.

Edit: and no pickups would be required for PowerUpGrades. You destroy it, you get a benefit. You don't have to run over anything.

[Risujin]

player1, you have officially beaten me for title of "Most Verbose Tremulous Player".

Can you leave that up for a couple of days?

Sure. It has a stability bug but its running on my home server. Look for "Risujin's Heaven of Relics mod" or poke me on IRC if its down.

Also, Ris, would it be worth toning it down a bit, and making it dependent on destroying enemy structures, as well as making the PowerUps and UpGrades distinct and team-specific?

The way to make it a better mod would be to heavily tone it down and turn them into some kind of objective reward. (I killed an egg -> Im probably egg-hunting granger-spam -> I get a relic that helps me do this, haste or something).

Basically it would be the old Q3 awards (remember "humiliation!" etc?) but they boost you somehow and they're dropped or given to you when you do something useful to your team (i.e. you repair more than x damage points, you earn a Builder relic or something).

I don't think just that would make it a mod worth playing though.

No icons or pickups required.

The pickups arent a big problem. They aren't thematically correct but they give you a choice, "Do I want this pickup?" ... sometimes the answer is no!

The only issue we had in Relic mod was spawning too many of them. If you spawn one per kill its fine, but three and you can't get to the one you want.

[Risujin]

Probably the one question this thread has failed to address is, why Juggernaut? The mod has to fit into existing Tremulous gameplay and accomplish a function that is needed now or replace an old function.


Here are some options --

Juggernaut is its own team

The Juggernaut gets a new model and weapon (think Predator) or is just a boosted version of whatever you were before.

Juggernaut wins at timelimit: The Juggernaut's goal could be to keep either team from winning.

Juggernaut wins when both teams are dead: When one team is dead, place that team on the opposite side and its all vs the Juggernaut, the Juggernaut loses if it dies.

Single Juggernaut

Kill the Juggernaut to become the Juggernaut. The Juggernaut's strategy is to either kill whore, camp, or both.

Anti-camp measure: Juggernaut is harmful to his team inside the base. A radiation aura harms everything around the Jug. This is interesting because it prevents camping by having one player always outside of the base.

Each team gets a Juggernaut

Killing the opposing team's Juggernaut will NOT give you Juggernaut status (unless perhaps if it steals your own team's Juggernaut and gives it to you).

Juggernaut is a prize: The player with the most kills, or highest accuracy, or highest razes (killed buildings) gets Juggernaut.

Anti-camp measure is still necessary.

[Plague Bringer]

Each team gets a Juggernaut

Killing the opposing team's Juggernaut will NOT give you Juggernaut status **(unless perhaps if it steals your own team's Juggernaut and gives it to you).**

Juggernaut is a prize: The player with the most kills, or highest accuracy, or highest razes (killed buildings) gets Juggernaut.

Anti-camp measure is still necessary.

This is the original idea I was going for.
Single Juggernaut could lead to higher imbalance due to stage imbalance. On the other hand it could lead to higher balance, but the negative outweighs the posotive because if there is a stage imbalance, it will be harder for the weaker to get Juggernaut status, and easier for the stronger to get/regain Juggernaut status.

**I do not like this idea. It could easily lead to TK wars and TB wars.**

[Shadowgandor]

Bump, for the sake of me searching first if the idea I had was already written down. I like this

[whitebear]

I think it was discussed to the bitter end. No one wants tk wars when there is opposing team to worry about.

[Shadowgandor]

Well, I for one would like  a mode like this. Maybe even make the juggernaut immune for TK?

[player1]

Yeah, this idea died down a bit.

@PB: I'd take the most viable options raised and do a little mini-poll, I don't think we ever got any kind of community consensus on the answer to the question Risujin posed.

Also, I just realized that this might make a cool addition to the Research Idea, as one of the techtrees for either faction. It would also tie in nicely with that individual player FF discussion, as perhaps that would be the solution: on servers with FF on, Juggernaut FF would be limited by some agreed-upon factor (your attacks would be nerfed when damaging your own team, and strengthened when attacking the other team). The player with the most kills gets to be Juggernaut once that techtree is fully researched (or they can decline, and it devolves to the next best killer). Then the team will have chosen to utilize the technology, or they can choose not to, if they wish.

This is going to sound weird, but maybe instead of regular Tremulous weapons and classes being what is being researched, the "Research" mod would instead have separate techtrees, in addition to regular gameplay. If you are really good, you can put your spare evos or cred into research instead of share/donate/overflow, and instead of boring old killwhoring with the same old weapons and lamer teammates, now you can invest in technology. The only catch is that the people who put in the most cash dictate what tech the team gets, but they deserve it, and maybe they would have to get a 2/3 vote passed to utilize a fully researched Juggernaut that they personally financed (or somehow limit abuse, depending on who spent how much; maybe one player can never fully research one technology on his own).

Let me know. Wild brainstorming on a Tuesday afternoon, but it seems more like a part of a mod, than a mod all by itself.

Cheers!

[techhead]

Version B of juggernaught could give each team a unique class, a gloom-like Mech for Humans and a large Über-Tyrant class for aliens.

[Critters]

Here's the idea:

At the start of the game, a Juggernaut is chosen from each team. It could be random, could be the first dretch/rifle to spawn, whatever. The Juggernaut has 1.5x speed and/or 1.5x damage. The Juggernaut is colored differetly or has an aura so you can tell it apart from other players. Juggernauts gives 2x the evo/credits it would give if it was a normal player of that class or with that equipment when it is killed. Each time a Juggernaut dies (whether it be by world, tk, enemy or suicide another one is chosen at random (no builders are chosen). Everything else stays the same, no new weapons/classes/buildables or anything, just normal Tremulous gameplay but with a twist.

You mean like in Halo 3?

That is very fun

[player1]

@Plague Bringer: Check out this post.