Improved Uncreation?

[xyblor]

I know nothing about mapping so this is probably a dumb question.

Can folks make changes to a map such that they are playing a modified version of a map on a public server - even though everyone else is playing a non-modified version?

I was thinking it would be great to turn off the particle effects on Uncreation to improve the frame rate. Maybe something could be done to increase the frame rate on Transit as well.

Of course since so many people complain about the frame rate on Uncreation one might think that a revised version might be widely accepted, but I'm not that ambitious; I just want to solve my own problems for now.

[gareth]

afaik, you cant, i think there is a cvar to turn off particles though i believe.

[Odin]

It's not a particle issue. It's a vis issue.

[Survivor]

It's not a particle issue. It's a vis issue.

Combination of both. because a particle system is located in the centerpoint, whose portal is visible from practically every other portal on the map and 3 particle system which are in LoS from the human base make it a hefty load iirc.

Edit: and now that I decompiled it to check. A whole lotta hint but i think it was put in without thought, or atleast without hintskip.

[Pacra]

The best way to improve Uncreation is to erase it from your /base folder  

[TRaK]

It might be interesting to see a rework of uncreation with improved performance, and a modified layout. It's definitely a good-looking map, but it is fatally flawed.

[kozak6]

Yes, it could stand a remake for gameplay and for performance.

[Survivor]

Intended gameplay is good enough, sadly some people complain about performance. And it's a lot of work to redo a map. Might even be faster to start from scratch and do it right from the start. Still a lot of work.

[xyblor]

Well here's a challenge for someone, then: figure out a way to turn off all the particles on Uncreation and post it somewhere so we can test it out.

[p0m]

That's no challenge.

Open the pk3 for Uncreation using winzip et al, find the scripts folder. Extract uncreation.particle, and edit it so that the particle listings become just

particlename
{
}

With nothing between the braces. Save, compress back into the right place and done.

Please note doing it this way will not work on pure trem servers, so you may want to copy the pk3 beforehand and call it map-uncreation-clean.pk3 or something.

Also, in before "Plz do it for me." I'm at work, so I can't.

[xyblor]

Thanks very much for the help p0m; I did what you suggested and it seems that eliminating the particles DOES help the frame rate, but not as much as I had hoped.

I measured the fps at their lowest position on the map: right above the reactor, looking down the hallway.

WITH particles gave me about 23 fps.
WITHOUT the particles, I got 30.

This was on an Athlon XP 2500+ with a Radeon 8500. For reference, the starting spec position (the middle of the map) was at 80 fps.

I also tried eliminating all the shaders, but it just made the map look funny and didn't raise the frame rate at all.

Maybe I'll try fiddling with the textures; I notice the jpg files are rather large.

[TRaK]

I who(soup) still active at all? This might be an interesting project to take on.

[Survivor]

Wouldn't exactly call him active on the forums. Maybe try irc?

[n00b pl0x]

idk how anyone can not like this map. i <3 the gameplay. get rid of the lag and bam one of the best maps. people say its human biased; i dont buy it.

[LinuxManMikeC]

After reading this thread yesterday I pulled the contents of the pk3, decompiled the bsp, and started tinkering.  Not surprised that removing the particle systems didn't do much (though I would remove them anyway, just kinda gimicky).  After getting dizzy looking at all the hint brushes, I deleted them all.  ***Then I realize, absolutely no detail brushes! (Might be wrong, see note below :oops:)***  I didn't even bother loading up the portal file to see where all the vis planes were going.  Found overlapping brushes, overlapping faces, brushes and faces that should be caulked, and brushes that could probably be merged (may need some texture tweaks though).  Also, there are several spots where patch meshes were used, but instead of just caulking behind them, pretty much the whole map is coverd in a caulk hull (and not well placed in some areas).  While the map is a peice of art, the engineering underneath is a nightmare.

Well, since everyone needs a hobby, I'm going to be messing with this in my spare time.  I intend to try not to touch anything relating to its "art", just optimize the map.  No guarantee I will ever finish.  If anyone wants to help I might look into setting up a Subversion repository (anyone know how well a map will work in SVN?).  If anyone comes up with the original map file within the next week or two, could you please send it to me.  And if anyone hears that the original mapper is going to work on it, then I'll stop .

MAJOR EDIT:  Wait, detail brushes don't come in a decompile, do they?  Thought I decompiled Metro, but just rememberd the map file was included, so that threw me off. :oops:

[Baxter]

Sorry to say but I personally would never buy an ati, if it came with my computer if I would get one, I would instantly sell it and buy an nvidia (much better gfx card makers)
Maybe you might need a new gfx card?

[Survivor]

After reading this thread yesterday I pulled the contents of the pk3, decompiled the bsp, and started tinkering.  Not surprised that removing the particle systems didn't do much (though I would remove them anyway, just kinda gimicky).

I'd only keep the central particle system since it's in a easily closeable system. The open sky sometimes makes it troublesome though

After getting dizzy looking at all the hint brushes, I deleted them all.

Yep all weird hint brushes, no hintskip.

***Then I realize, absolutely no detail brushes! (Might be wrong, see note below :oops:)***

 Don't come with a decompile sadly. And they really are most of the work.

I didn't even bother loading up the portal file to see where all the vis planes were going.  Found overlapping brushes, overlapping faces, brushes and faces that should be caulked, and brushes that could probably be merged (may need some texture tweaks though).

Messy indeed.

Also, there are several spots where patch meshes were used, but instead of just caulking behind them, pretty much the whole map is coverd in a caulk hull (and not well placed in some areas).  While the map is a peice of art, the engineering underneath is a nightmare.

I think you'd just be better off in making a new map along the plans of uncreation. Doing it right from the start will save you a lot of work and you will get a better understanding of how the hinting should go and could go since you can edit it.

Well, since everyone needs a hobby, I'm going to be messing with this in my spare time.  I intend to try not to touch anything relating to its "art", just optimize the map.  No guarantee I will ever finish.

You probably won't  

If anyone wants to help I might look into setting up a Subversion repository (anyone know how well a map will work in SVN?).  If anyone comes up with the original map file within the next week or two, could you please send it to me.

Me and soubok tried this for a map and the first bit of advice i can give you is that all mappers involved should use the same version of radiant. No 1.2.13 + 1.4.0 + 1.5.0. The way they save their .maps is different. Also integrating stuff like detailing and shaders from one map into the other was hard enough when we were making new stuff let alone editing a maze like uncreation.

And if anyone hears that the original mapper is going to work on it, then I'll stop .

Ask him

MAJOR EDIT:  Wait, detail brushes don't come in a decompile, do they?  Thought I decompiled Metro, but just rememberd the map file was included, so that threw me off. :oops:

See above. Also some textures might need to be realigned.

[LinuxManMikeC]

Thanks Survivor.  I had glanced at the q3map2 changelog and the manual on wikibooks and didn't notice anything.  Then, as I said, I thought I had decompiled Metro, so I opened it and saw detail brushes, so... :oops: .

If I do this from the decompile, I probably won't finish.  I'll see if I can get the map file.  Either way, I think there is a lot to learn from tinkering with this.

So, is this the Who that made the map?  Man... Tremulous Dev... I hope he doesn't bite.  I come in peace!

[Survivor]

Yes, but he isn't really active as far as i know. You can try but i think this was one of those .maps that was lost.

[xyblor]

I'm glad to see that someone else wants to "save" Uncreation. It has some merits: it looks good, and it's not too big.

Survivor: I find it hard to believe that tweaking an existing complete map would be harder than making a new one from scratch. After all, removing the particles took about 10 minutes and resulted in a 30% boost in performance.

Regarding the gameplay of the map, I'll go over what I consider to be Uncreation's major flaws:

1) There is a theoretical borderline upon which the entire early game is focussed: the curved narrow hallway that leads from the center of the map to a wider chamber which is visible from the human base. Any alien crossing that line can be shot at with impunity by the humans; likewise the hallway itself is the ideal killing ground for aliens - an enclosed area with limited visibility. Since there is no incentive for either team to cross this border, the game slows to a standstill, with both sides waiting for the other to get bored and take a risk.

2) Until one team reaches stage 3, the map is entirely linear: there is only one path to get to the enemy base. This is not the case with any other standard map, and for good reason: alternate paths make for a more dynamic game with opportunities to avoid troublesome areas, surprise your opponents from behind, create diversions, etc.

3) Anyone with a jetpack can kill the eggs and overmind. This is pretty cheesy and happens frequently.

Fortunately there's quick and dirty fix that would address all of these issues: OPEN ALL THE STAGE DOORS FROM THE BEGINNING. Then you'd have (1) a large area (the "gazebo" area) away from both bases where skirmishes can take place on equal footing, (2) alternate routes, and (3) a place for aliens to relocate their base to immediately which is much more defensible against jetpacks.

So does anyone know how open those doors permanently?

[LinuxManMikeC]

The doors... Um... delete them?  Or delete the stage triggers so they open like normal?  Just a wild guess here.  :roll: Its all good dude.    I'll see about finding Who, hopefully he has the map file.  If not, hopefully I can get some company for my misery .

[Survivor]

I'm glad to see that someone else wants to "save" Uncreation. It has some merits: it looks good, and it's not too big.

True, i like uncreation and i'm not even hampered by these strange fps falls people find so annoying. They don't really affect me.

Survivor: I find it hard to believe that tweaking an existing complete map would be harder than making a new one from scratch. After all, removing the particles took about 10 minutes and resulted in a 30% boost in performance.

Deleting the particle systems is deleting 5 or 6 entities, that's 1 minute work for me. The real work comes from redetailing and smart hinting it. Which would be easier if you made the map from the beginning since you have a better overview.

1) There is a theoretical borderline upon which the entire early game is focussed: the curved narrow hallway that leads from the center of the map to a wider chamber which is visible from the human base. Any alien crossing that line can be shot at with impunity by the humans; likewise the hallway itself is the ideal killing ground for aliens - an enclosed area with limited visibility. Since there is no incentive for either team to cross this border, the game slows to a standstill, with both sides waiting for the other to get bored and take a risk.

Hardly. The fact is that uncreation has a weak alien base, even by normal standards while the human base protected by the abbyss can be pretty strong at the start. With the stage doors opened humans gain a significant advantage in offense while not really suffering anything in defence.

2) Until one team reaches stage 3, the map is entirely linear: there is only one path to get to the enemy base. This is not the case with any other standard map, and for good reason: alternate paths make for a more dynamic game with opportunities to avoid troublesome areas, surprise your opponents from behind, create diversions, etc.

The fact is that games would be over too fast without the stage doors. It's a small map for smaller games. The stage doors keep the larger playercount's in check.

3) Anyone with a jetpack can kill the eggs and overmind. This is pretty cheesy and happens frequently.

Hives, trappers, hiding eggs from LoS and not letting them in your base. Pretty basic.

Fortunately there's quick and dirty fix that would address all of these issues: OPEN ALL THE STAGE DOORS FROM THE BEGINNING. Then you'd have (1) a large area (the "gazebo" area) away from both bases where skirmishes can take place on equal footing, (2) alternate routes, and (3) a place for aliens to relocate their base to immediately which is much more defensible against jetpacks.

jetpacks really isn't that much of a problem. And relocating base to that confined area is just as bad. Fact is when you reach S2 both teams get a nook which they can relocate too while the other side is not open yet. That's way better than making it way open.

So does anyone know how open those doors permanently?

Just remove them. No use for those doors if you remove the stage triggers. Or if you want them to remain remove the targetname

[Kaleo]

The best way to improve Uncreation is to erase it from your /base folder  

The best way to improve Uncreation is to kill Uncreation haters!

[Lava Croft]

There is nothing to improve about Uncreation, it's almost perfection. The fact that 99% of the community ignores the map just proves my point.

[Plague Bringer]

Then you have made two perfect maps.

[fleash eater]

how bout some one just makes a new versin of uncreation??

[Jet]

I know nothing about mapping so this is probably a dumb question.

Can folks make changes to a map such that they are playing a modified version of a map on a public server - even though everyone else is playing a non-modified version?

I was thinking it would be great to turn off the particle effects on Uncreation to improve the frame rate. Maybe something could be done to increase the frame rate on Transit as well.

Of course since so many people complain about the frame rate on Uncreation one might think that a revised version might be widely accepted, but I'm not that ambitious; I just want to solve my own problems for now.

is this even a serious question..?

[Surge]

I know nothing about mapping so this is probably a dumb question.

It is a dumb question

[xyblor]

thanks for the belated flames guys