Mod Idea - PowerUpGrades

[player1]

Ris,

How's things? A separate Rewards mod? I like the idea of calling it TremRPG (how about TremorSmack?)! Oh joy and rapture.

First off, you are so right. I need to play some RTCW:ET and some Relics mod (both look pretty cool). Real life interfered, as I haven't had much time for even playing regular Tremulous this week. I see that Enemy Territories is available for Mac, so after I have mine repaired (which means losing it for three days, sometime starting next weekend, Saturday being my next day off) I'll download it (even though it's a mighty big file, loaded with cheaters, and I've played WWII to death). I will check out some Relics mod this week though. We seem to be on forum at the same time, so maybe I can meet you on your server. I try to play in the evenings (Pacific Time).

I had RTCW with my last computer, and played the SP version, and some multiplayer. I took a look at the ET site. Here's what I think. ET has five classes, three of which apply to the Rewards mod: the Soldier (Human & Alien), the Engineer (again, both) and the dreaded, accursed Medic (Alien). The Field Ops class is less applicable to Rewards as currently described, while you'll notice that most of the Hunt Rewards are somewhat of the nature of the Covert Ops class. ET has a lot more items, and rewards players with increased facility in their chosen roles.

Rewards or TremRPG would do this in a different way, would be much cooler, would be of course, scifi not WWII, and have Humans vs. Aliens not Allies vs. Axis, so in those ways it would be different enough to warrant doing.

Each side is truly different (as players choose a race or species, not just a faction, in addition to a role or class) making it much more World of Warcraft or EverQuest than just an enhanced shooter game (one side, after all, has mostly melee attacks, while the other has mostly ranged attacks, which is what got me thinking console and RPG in the first place -  Alien Trem action is very Street Fighter and Final Fantasy, where you have to perform your combos correctly; charge, pounce, jump, while moving forward=goon super-combo).

I think an XP system could make games of Tremulous deeper and more meaningful. Plus the Rewards aren't just of the not-handicapped-anymore variety like in Deus Ex or Enemy Territory (echo: Congratulations! You just got the non-sucky aim-unenhancer derestorer! The game will no longer pretend you can't aim! Whoopie!). The enhancements are cool, and they relate directly to Tremulous play.

Tremulous has RTS elements, and RPG elements have been added to many shooters, from DX to Daikatana to the tournament and arena ladders of UT and Q3a, to the powerups of many CTF and DM mods. I believe Rewards mod is a way to make Tremulous even cooler (and I can say for sure it will be cooler than ET simply because it's a Tremulous mod).

I'm thinking ultimate mod of the ultimate mod. Way freaking better than killing Nazis, imho. Double-dodge dretch in pitched battle against damage-enhanced blaster! Stealth mara trying to avoid Vengeance! Cloaked lucispammer battling an invisible tyrant! Armor-boosted chainsuit taking on a shielded adv granger! Poisoned teamkillers! Irradiated 'shotgun' deconners who are dangerous to the enemy team! Reloaded rifleman fighting against damage-reflective basi-medic! Killwhores who are toxic to their own teammates! Hazardous attackers who can't go back to base, for fear of damaging their own team's structures!

I think it would make for some great skirmishes, some wild tactics, and some awesome strategies (and be totally different than ET). As well as from Relics. Another great alternaTremulicious playmod. TremWars!

[whitebear]

Risujin... You are a genius! Trem with ET style RPG system! ^^ Of cource with smilar optional progress saving. This would mean adding classes to humans and that might suck pretty bad...
Nah after all I think I UT2k4:RPG is lot better since there are proper stats.

player1: I think Rewards idea is too much based around killing buildings for bonuses while I think it's most boring part of game. it's lot more challenging  to kill players with better loadout than you do.

[Risujin]

Risujin... You are a genius! Trem with ET style RPG system! ^^ Of cource with smilar optional progress saving. This would mean adding classes to humans and that might suck pretty bad...
Nah after all I think I UT2k4:RPG is lot better since there are proper stats.

Right, we don't want to add classes to humans. We can give rewards though. player1 thought up of plenty and I'm sure we can think of others, special versions of guns for example ... 99 frags gives you a BFG lol.

it's lot more challenging  to kill players with better loadout than you do.

I think we should take inspiration for the Quake3 medals system. If you blaster a tyrant to death, that's "Humiliation" and you get the golden blaster.  

[whitebear]

Haha! How about that gatling I showed you ^^
I need to learn add those tag_weapon things in right places first and find out where to get the skining template for model ^^
I also got another weapon model coming that looks somewhat smilar to md but lot cooler ^^

Kill with blaster/granner = Humiliation
Painsaw kills = Gauntlet
Kill without geting hurt = Perfect
MD/barb kill = RailGun kill
etc.

[player1]

Risujin... You are a genius! Trem with ET style RPG system! ^^ Of cource with smilar optional progress saving. This would mean adding classes to humans and that might suck pretty bad...
Nah after all I think I UT2k4:RPG is lot better since there are proper stats.

player1: I think Rewards idea is too much based around killing buildings for bonuses while I think it's most boring part of game. it's lot more challenging  to kill players with better loadout than you do.

Wow, either I suck at explaining things or you haven't read any subsequent posts. Rewards mod rewards Building, Destroying, Killing, Repairing and Healing (that is, everything in the game). See my two posts from Thursday the 12th (there are two in a row: "OK, I think I've got it" & "double-post or overfill form?"). They supersede all previous ideas.

Also, if you look closely at the killing section (Hunt), you see that I give the coolest enhancement for killing an opponent two stages above you (Invisibilty), a slightly less cool one for killing an opponent one stage above you (Cloaking), and a slightly less cool one for killing an opponent at the same stage as you (Stealth). I even penalize the player slightly for killing a weaker opponent (Toxic for one stage below) and moreso for killing a really weak opponent (Hazard for two stages below). Further, as I said above, this could be for multiple opponents within a certain time limit or number of spawns.

Additionally, there are at least two completely different ways which could be used to calculate the player's stage value (for the purpose of awarding Rewards). One: the player's stage value is the same as that of his team. So if your team is at S3, and your opponent's team is at S1, and you get the kill, you would get Hazard (and be dangerous to your own team's structures). Provided of course that the Reward was for a single kill. Two: the player's stage value is based upon his current loadout or class. In that case, a lucifer cannon killing a dretch, is an S3 weapon killing an S1 class - again, a difference of two stages - again resulting in Hazard being awarded. Does that make sense to you? You get better stuff for killing a player with a better loadout than you. It's already in there.

You get Rewarded for Building (successful structures). You get Rewarded for Destroying (enemy structures); which I might add, is the whole purpose of Tremulous. You get Rewarded for Hunting (killing enemy players), and you get the coolest Rewards for killing an opponent who is better equipped than you, while you get mildly penalized for killwhoring. You get Rewarded for Repairing (lots of your own team's structures). You get Rewarded for Healing (teammates, if you're an Alien who can). Anything you can do to help your team gets you a Reward, JUST LIKE IN TREMULOUS NOW! Only now, you just get evos and creds. The Rewards mod would also give you cool enhancements, in addition to the current system.

Also, whitebear, while some players find Building, Repairing, Healing teammates and Destroying enemy structures to be tiresome, they're the most important part of the game. While you're out dretching chainsuits, someone else has to defend and maintain your base, while another player goes out and actually accomplishes your real mission, to destroy the enemy base (especially the spawn points and main structure). Otherwise you still lose, no matter how many kills you have. Leaderboard killers are only valuable in that they help the team to stage up and stay competitive with the enemy. Base-rapers win Tremulous games. Plain and simple.

Also, Humans don't need classes. By specializing in what you like doing, the Rewards mod will enhance you accordingly, so you can do that job even better. I think a Stealth, Cloaked or Invisible dretch would be crazy fun for killing lucispamming bsuits who are Toxic to their own teammates because they keep killing Aliens a stage or two beneath their current loadout. In other words, Rewards mod, as currently conceived, does exactly what you are asking. Please read it again. (A rifleman who kills a tyrant would be likewise Rewarded generously.)

Thanks for giving me a chance to explain further. Maybe I just thought that's what I said...

Right, we don't want to add classes to humans. We can give rewards though. player1 thought up of plenty and I'm sure we can think of others, special versions of guns for example ... 99 frags gives you a BFG lol.

Exactly. Note that the following are general statements, with broad applications. Humans have loadouts. Aliens have classes. Humans have mostly ranged weapons. Aliens have mostly melee weapons. Rewards for Humans benefit their loadout and gear. Rewards for Aliens benefit their movement, melee attack, or durability. Very generally speaking.

I think we should take inspiration for the Quake3 medals system. If you blaster a tyrant to death, that's "Humiliation" and you get the golden blaster.  

Spot on. That's exactly what I'm thinking of. You do something cool. The game let's everybody know that, and gives you cool powers to boot. The Vengeance reward might even be one that should have such a badge over the player's avatar (although it would be more evil to keep it hidden).

Thanks to both of you for your continued interest in this idea, your support, and your valuable critiques. I think the idea is beginning to really come together. Cheers!

[Risujin]

You might not want to give players negative rewards (Toxic?) for killing enemy players, even if they are weaker. Tyrants killing naked humans is still part of the game. By penalizing you are encouraging the Tyrant to let the human run around ... that's kind of strange.

Also there is a problem with reward stacking. If I get the reward I want by MDing 10 dretches in a row without getting a scratch, I run back to base and MD a granger and lose my awesome-o reward for a Toxic (or something else) I'm gonna be pissed.

Special weapons can be available for one-time purchase at the armory. Same thing with special classes. You can choose to go for either any time as long as you've earned one.

With Relic-style rewards, things get complicated. Perhaps these are also purchaseable upgrades? Would need to add an "evolve upgrade" system for this. What are your thoughts on this?

[player1]

You might not want to give players negative rewards (Toxic?) for killing enemy players, even if they are weaker. Tyrants killing naked humans is still part of the game. By penalizing you are encouraging the Tyrant to let the human run around ... that's kind of strange.

We could, however, make it that you get the Toxic for killing lots of weaker enemies, while you get the Invisibility for killing only one or a couple-few stronger enemies. So you wouldn't get penalized for doing it once. But, say you lucispam spawncamp twenty dretches to death. Then you deserve to be (mildly) Toxic. Each Reward could be for performing said task a given number of times within a certain duration (whether that duration be time-based or number of respawns will be tuned to which Reward it is). Plus you'd only get Toxic if you didn't qualify for something cooler. If you were only killing weaker opponents, you'd be (mildly) penalized. In any case, I'm not married to the idea. It's not a deal-breaker.

Also there is a problem with reward stacking. If I get the reward I want by MDing 10 dretches in a row without getting a scratch, I run back to base and MD a granger and lose my awesome-o reward for a Toxic (or something else) I'm gonna be pissed.

Right. Like I said, that's one of many possible scenarios, one which I also don't like. I hated the fact that Q3a used to make me pickup-switch to machine gun when I had an enemy in my sights with my railgun.

The better way to do it would be to allow the player to choose which Reward (of the ones he qualifies for) he wants to use. Your idea of considering them medals is exactly correct. They are like the service bars or campaign ribbons of a qualified, experienced veteran. Or flukes, easter eggs, red herrings, consolation prizes and 'participant' awards for those who are less worthy.

Plus, we can have them assigned by a weighted system. Do a few good things, get Rewards. Do lots of bad things, get a mild slap on the wrist that you can also use to your benefit if you are clever (like the Xenophobe reward for 'shotgun' deconning makes you a biohazard to nearby enemies).

Special weapons can be available for one-time purchase at the armory. Same thing with special classes. You can choose to go for either any time as long as you've earned one.

Absolutely. Kill two maras beyond the build-line in one spawing in S2 with an S1 loadout and qualify for a one-time purchase of the White Phosphorus Grenade Launcher, if you've got 300 creds. Destroy more than one turret as a dretch in under three minutes in S3, and qualify to become the Fire Marauder, provided you can spare the 3 evos. Build more than three turrets that kill more than three Aliens each in under three minutes and get the Plasma Autocannon, for a mere 350 creds. Heal teammates for a total of 1000 health points within one stage and unlock the Radiation Mara, for only 2 additional evos. These are just very broad examples. I leave the specifics to more experienced players, players who will play-balance the mod, and you, since you are looking at the code, and have a much better feel for these things, as well as the actual values involved right in front of you.

With Relic-style rewards, things get complicated. Perhaps these are also purchaseable upgrades? Would need to add an "evolve upgrade" system for this. What are your thoughts on this?

Absolutely. Tesla Cannon. Incendiary Grenades. Toggle Pack. Fire Marauder. Radiation Marauder. Flying Explosive Bile Dretch. SteadyAim. Sound Dampener. Universal Scope. GrangerHUD. Tyrant DretchVelcro. GoonLeader CommandMenu. Any good idea from these pages, implemented.

Also, really basic stuff like long-range resupply for Humans (only if you do something crucial for victory, the equivalent of capturing a flag - which in Tremulous is not getting just any kill, it's getting kills after the spawns are all gone, especially if you're stage-down from your opponent.)

Or increasing any of the basic, console-type, melee-intensive Alien abilities, just like the body mutations from Deus Ex (as opposed to the weapons mutations). I'll have to look them up; I don't have the manual anymore. Anything which makes you stronger, faster, quicker, tougher, etc.

Since making these things available through the Armoury and Evolve screens sounds like the way you are leaning, we end up mosty with weapons and classes. I was hoping Humans could buy more Items at the Armoury, instead of just weapons (Scope, Recoil Dampener, Clip Mod, Silencer, Plasma Clip for Blaster, Toggle Pack, Laser Turret as 1-time Buildable, RailGun AutoCannon for Builder, Roving Medibot as 1-time Buildable, etc.), while Aliens could have an additional submenu like Evolve, a submenu called Enhance, which would allow the player to use earned Enhancements. Unlocked Alien classes would appear at the Evolve submenu, as one-time/fully unlocked evolvable classes. Enhancements would appear at the Enhance submenu, as one-time Enhancements (of limited duration?). All of these new toys and flavours would cost creds and evos.

OK, Rewards mod phase three. No pickups or relics. Humans can buy new Items at Armoury, and some Weapons if new cool models become available (*cough*whitebear*cough*). Items are loadout modifications, new gear, and enhanced abilities (should I buy the Restored Scope for my MD or the SteadyAim for my Chaingun?). Aliens can become new Classes, if cool new models are available (models anyone?), and Aliens would also get a new submenu, called Enhance, with another keystoke (maybe pushing Q again?), whereby they can do cooler combo moves or are just powered-up (do I want War$ow/Nexuiz/Tribes trickmoves or a three-minute Shield?). And I'm still dreaming.

Thoughts?

Oh, and as long as we're going all RTCW:ET meets Tribes/Deus Ex on this: One Human can call in a resupply or place a Field Station, which sells only single Medkits, ammo Reloads, and ArmorBoosts (just like a Medkit, pop the seal and you used it). The Field Station has a cost in BP, and the builder would have to have qualified because his buildings were above average, say persistent forward buildings. The Fieldkits all have a cost in creds: TBD.

Also, one Alien can act as a Beacon for the others, who will all have directional 'finder' arrows to locate the Beacon, and the Beacon's teamchat will be (briefly, yet lingeringly) echoed, and if the Beacon dies he releases a Swarm, and does acid spalsh damage to nearby Humans. You get to be the Beacon if you're a dretch and you kill a lucisuit within 30 seconds of respawning (or for 50 kills as a goon in under five minutes). One unlocks the other, also. If Humans qualify for Field Station, Aliens get Beacon (board leader) as balance consolation, and vice-versa.

I'm painting with a four-inch brush now, not a single horsehair. In midstream and astride two mounts. Let me know at which point my thoughts coincided with yours.

***!!!EDIT: Holy Crap it came to me after I wrote all that other stuff!!!***
Oh, and also, we could keep the old table of Rewards, and make them buyable for Humans at an Armoury, or Field Station, while the Alien ones would appear at the Enhance submenu. For those that coincide, we can use some system of calculating the evo/cred exchange rate, as suggested by whitebear above. I think that's the solution.

Enhancements:  An admixture of Q3a badges, Deus Ex upgrades, and Relics. Humans can buy Enhancements from a Field Station for credits, if they qualify (Enhancements they qualify for will be highlighted). Aliens can use highlighted Enhancements at the Enhance submenu, for a cost in evos (again, those that they qualify for). Simple. Still use entries from Thursday the 12th. Add Field Station structure and Enhance submenu.

The 'evil' runes would be enforced for certain bad actions, like heinous TKing or 'shotgun' deconning, and the 'punitive' runes might appear among the Enhancements for doing unadvisable things like killwhoring. Or not. Maybe they just don't go. All Carrot and No Stick?

[whitebear]

How about instead of personal rewards the game would give the team enchanted versions and completely new equipments.
exmaple:
20 kills with Pain saw without using medpad and all Pain saws turn into Tranqulizer saws and they replace them in armory too.
Same with lucy and it turns to xael mkII. exept with larger kill count ofcource

9 frags gives you a BFG lol.

how's this for bfg:

I wonder why blender always renders the lights totaly f*cked up
The picture angle is not best either ^^
The Handel is kinda like protected with some short of tube.

[Risujin]

How about instead of personal rewards the game would give the team enchanted versions and completely new equipments.

That's a tough call. I think it is better to have personal rewards because it's a kind of badge of honor. Like "I blaster'd a Tyrant" or "I dretch'd 10 suits" and you get a cookie for it.

You could help your team with area-effect rewards maybe?

20 kills with Pain saw without using medpad and all Pain saws turn into Tranqulizer saws and they replace them in armory too.

Painsaw Massacre! xD
(all medals must have punny names)

how's this for bfg:

Looks pretty lean and mean, poly-wise. If you can give that a pro texture, and come up with a projectile of some sort, I think we're in business.

Although I like the idea, and I don't want to clutter the Armory, it seems a little unfair to burden the Humans with an additonal buildable while the Aliens get away with a new menu. Should it be a hovel-style single-buildable? Should we give the Aliens a new buildable, the Deformer/Mutator?

[player1]

How about instead of personal rewards the game would give the team enchanted versions and completely new equipments.

That's a tough call. I think it is better to have personal rewards because it's a kind of badge of honor. Like "I blaster'd a Tyrant" or "I dretch'd 10 suits" and you get a cookie for it.

I agree. It's about giving medals/badges/prizes/enhancements. You get cool ones for doing really cool stuff. You get meh ones for doing meh stuff.

You could help your team with area-effect rewards maybe?

Please explain.

20 kills with Pain saw without using medpad and all Pain saws turn into Tranqulizer saws and they replace them in armory too.

Painsaw Massacre! xD
(all medals must have punny names)

Agreed!

how's this for bfg:

Looks pretty lean and mean, poly-wise. If you can give that a pro texture, and come up with a projectile of some sort, I think we're in business.

EMProxMine Launcher

Launches proximity mines which, when detonated, cause an ElectroMagnetic Pulse strong enough to temporarily disable Alien radar, or wallwalk, or regen. The mines are persistent, and although an Alien has to be fairly close to set one off, the effect of the pulse is over a fairly large area (you have to be within three feet to set it off, but the affected area would have a fifteen-foot radius). Temporarily disables Human radar and jetpacks, but for a shorter time, and a smaller range.  

Although I like the idea, and I don't want to clutter the Armory, it seems a little unfair to burden the Humans with an additonal buildable while the Aliens get away with a new menu. Should it be a hovel-style single-buildable? Should we give the Aliens a new buildable, the Deformer/Mutator?

I'm of two minds. Perhaps the additional Human building could be like the Reactor (costs no BP, spawns at beginning of game) which the Humans get as part of their base, while the Aliens get the submenu (Aliens burdened by more decisions as to loadout also). Or, as you say, the Aliens get the Enhancer while the Humans get the Field Station, both as buildables. Stage 1.5 anyone?