Is Tremulous meant to be a tactical/team game ? Otherwise...

[b0rsuk]

Just wondering. So far, it seems to be random deathmatch, where agility/aim matters much more than stealth, ambushes, teamwork. This is strenghtened by the fact map design is often disturbingly primitive, so primitive that Q3A CTF maps look confusing by comparison. Many maps are all about bottlenecks, and don't allow for any degree of finesse. On top of that no thought seems to have been put into making maps wallwalk-friendly, with bizzarre ceiling decorations/irregular walls. Wallwalking dretch is often a free kill, because ww confuses him more than helps. It's ok for escaping, I guess.
And the speed difference - aliens are insignificantly faster than humans.  As opposed to NS, where slow running speed means humans have to stick together and are easy targets unless they have good aim.

I'm asking because I have a bunch of suggestions for this mod, but if it's meant to be played this way (random deathmatch/camping/stalemates), I'll limit myself to interface suggestions.

[[EVIL]Unknown]

let me tell u my opinion..this game is best played for optimum fun and crap by playing with 2 teams each knowing eachother like clans using a chat program like teamspeak to coordinate everything...

communication is HIGHLY!!!important in this game...knowing where the enemy is at all times..knowing when they have advanced to next level, if their base moved, if their launching an attack, rebuilding what and where, etc.. the prob is that not everyone knows anyone else much and typing things take long..chat programs are best


maybe we should have a community tremulous teamspeak server???

im seeing many new people everyday and they just jump in ask a few general q's and start going on their own trying to kill stuff and when everyone does that u just get a bunch of guys rushing to their deaths giving the enemy points....havent u heard of task forces??? go in groups and overwhelm the enemy and retreat...gorrilla warfare is awsome and fun in this game...

[CanadaDemon]

The main issue seems to be that the new people (hell, I'll admit I'm new to Trem, but I'm NOT new to these types of games) seem too afraid to ask questions in game. Either because they are just naturally afraid, lazy, or someone scared them. And because of this, they don't learn how to actually play, assume it's bad, and move on. This game is actually QUITE well done, with the exception of a couple things.

Whatever the case, the new people have to ask the question to get answers. That's how it works.

And yes, as [EVIL]Unknown said, Comm is very important in this game, more then say, CS or Quake4. This game is TEAM BASED and you NEED to have a commander that knows how to build a base, as well as the ability to adapt to a diferent situation. The other team does not always play the exact same way, so being able to adapt, and warn others about things that could be an issue are VERY important.

Also, more players need to join these forums, and take part. That's the whole reason for OpenSource Dev.

[Nosfore]

Well said CanadaDemon. Maybe we should randomly speak of this forum while playing.

This game is TEAM BASED and you NEED to have a commander that knows how to build a base

As for having a commander, I'm partially against it.
First because having one commander brings predictability patterns.
Second because it's impossible to enforce commander orders.

On the second point, having voice communication help A LOT in the chain of commands because of human factors. While playing a shooter, your center of attention is the center of the screen. Having to look at the top for incoming messages is annoying. Not so many people are disciplined enough to read and response to messages. So, it's better to use the little disciple they have to follow simple voice orders.

[Catalyc]

I think you just need to move to servers with better players. Base building has a very important role in trem in any balanced match (read, with good players on both teams and not much feeding). The problem in most public games is that people still don't understand how much most default bases suck (ATCS being the only exception I believe). Hence why everyone skips the building stage and go directly to the fragging. Forward building is quite important if done correctly too, nothing is worse than getting your base hit by a hoard of humans/aliens and find out you can't chase them outside 'cause theres a bunch of turrets/tubes

Tou don't need a commander, this isn't NS, you need a construction kit that can you can get for free on the armoury. Base and Forward building can be done much faster and effectively if theres 2 or more builders that know what they're doing.

[Nosfore]

But the best base building spot is not everything.

Although it helps, team coordination ultimately beat a good base building spot. Maybe the game would not benefit from a single commander, but rather from many good sargents.

[Catalyc]

Teamchat is more than enough to coordinate an attack, TS would just give a quicker response. Most of the good players just work together, theres really no need for anything else but the "Come on!" gesture ;P

[b0rsuk]

To give you an example:

in NS, lerk isn't very useful on it's own. But it can do the Primal Scream to boost offense and Umbra for defence/to help advancing through long corridors, or something. Lerk isn't strong enough to attack alone, but is good support.

Similar for gorge. Let's forget about base building ability for a moment - gorge can heal wounded teammates and place webs, which do have tactical importance.


Now back to Tremulous. It is hard to observe (match is often basically over at that point), but according to documentation Tyrant has a healing aura similar to that of a Booster. So what ? It doesn't really matter, because a single tyrant can easily kill several unsuspecting/inexperienced marines. And at least damage a base, especially destroy a turret or two, clearing the way for the others. At the moment, tyrants are pretty much self-sufficient, just like rambomedics are in Wolf:ET. "Healing aura for lesser aliens" doesn't matter.

Granger isn't very useful on anything against base building. Possibly to shoot jetpackers down, but it's not easy as it sounds because  most tremulous maps have lots of bottlenecks, and much fewer vents than NS.Which is hard to understand, because the most dangerous aliens are very big and wouldn't be able to use a vent anyway; little or no damage to balance.
What am I about to say ? Well, anytime you advance to shoot a jetpacker down, he expects you and already is facing your direction. Even worse, you may easily be spammed with Lucifer by someone who can't see or hear you.

Another thing that puzzles me is: why is Basilisk so crippled against Battlesuit ? I mean, it's probably ok that poison becomes useless, but "restricts ability to turn" not working on battlesuit is an overkill. . Basilisk already has fairly low rate of fire(melee attack), and quite low damage. It takes about five hits to kill light armor marine. With halway competent marines, it's an eternity, plenty of time for another marine to kill you. Now battlesuits are much tougher than regular marines, and require much more time to kill from behind... I mean, WOULD require, because as soon as you grab him, he simply turns and kills you. Even if he can't, chances are he has Lucifer gun and can kill you with splash damage.
Making Baslilisk's hold ability work the same on light and heavy armor would be beneficial for gameplay and would promote teamplay. A basilisk would still need a ridiculous amount of time to kill a battlesuit alone, so you'd need a teammate to help finish him. Please, at least make basilisks good at assasination and ambushes. Even dretches can bring Battlesuit down, why not a basilisk, already stripped of poison ?
------------------
The state of Tremulous teamplay isn't too good when compared to NS or Wolf:ET. There's another tweak it could use, a good idea suggested by someone else. Make medikits unlimited to heal others, but impossible to heal yourself with. It would further encourage teamwork.
My suggested addition is that it shouldn't work within, say, 5-10 seconds since taking damage, so you can't heal faster that Hive/Basilisk deals damage, for example. I'd say make it non-combat item.

[KoS]

Reading b0rsuk's suggestions I have only one thing to add about Basilisk.
Why not do so that only Advanced Basilisk could hold a battlesuit still, but simple Basilisk can't?
As wearing Battlesuite makes you stronger, but then again Advanced Basilisk is also stronger then simple Basilisk, so it can hold still also a Battlesuiter?

[juice]

It seems like dm and whatnot because we have alot of new players recently.  Now that Tremulous is stand-alone, it has attracted much more attention than previously.  This means entire servers of new people to tremulous who never played before and don't know what to expect.  Naturally, they will play it deathmatch like to begin with before they try to do anything else to get a feel for the game and what kind of pace its set at.

And using anything to compare tremulous to ns will get you alot of angry looks (/me looks at stannum with fear).

All they need to do is read Norf's manual and the strategy guide he posted.  On that strategy guide thread, I also posted some do's and don't's for tremulous.  Use the search feature to find it; it should be very helpful.

[Stannum]

And using anything to compare tremulous to ns will get you alot of angry looks (/me looks at stannum with fear).

/me sends his pet tyrant after juice.

[Catalyc]

Exactly juice, 75% of the people on most servers barely know what they're doing. Its impossible for new player to understand fully how the game really works in 20 player games where 5 people are named Unnamedplayer . Base design takes a major role in good games, especially for humans.

And I was going to say, this isn't NS  :evil:

[CanadaDemon]

Hehe, yea. At first glance, I was reminded of NS, but now I know better. Where NS has it's pros and cons, Trem has the one pro that makes it worth while: It's got no link to valvE or steam.

Q3 engine is definitly the way to go if you're going to do a new game. And stand alone is even BETTER.

Also, in the FAQ on the site, it explains that this is nothing like NS.

And don't even begin to compare this to ET, because they are nothing alike!

[b0rsuk]

I will compare it to tetris if the need arises. I'm no big fan of NS, but some things are done right there.
The fact that no one discussed any of points I made assures me that I'm right; no one is able to challenge them. And yes, I really shouldn't compare tremulous to Wolf:ET, because  ET is clearly a better game. I don't mean graphics/sound - I mean concept side of things, balance, map design. ET is very polished and everything there has a purpose.
And to quote someone who got it right:

(dolby)My feeling is we're dodging a feature that would be really tactically fun to have due to it being featured in NS. The NS community hate squad wins when it makes us this paranoid of getting backlash. We're getting schooled by 13 year olds. Fuck that. The only way we could risk valid criticism is by making a shitty mod. But we're not. Whats next, we can't have buttons that open doors?

Note that none of things I suggested are present in NS, you're simply being paranoid. And if someone stops reading a post upon seeing the two letters 'NS', I call him stupid.

Another thing I'd call a flaw in tremulous is that you can camp for as long as you wish. If you want, you can hide behind turrets, and (in the beginning) there's very little aliens can do about it. Even later, you can just spam Lucifer at the only one or two entrance(s).
NS avoids that by encouraging map control (resources). Tremulous probably prides itself for not using such solutions, which is why it pays a price. I'm not saying resource collecting should be implemented, but something should be done about turtling.
There are some places on some maps where humans can place their base high above ground. Tyrants won't get there, and anything smaller is shot down by machine turrets, teslas, all the while feeding marines with battlesuits.
I think the map name is Karith station. One room has ledges high above ground, and only one entrance. We were able to pin them down for 10 or so minutes (thanks to b0rsuk who was placing eggs, boosters and acid tubes right outside), but eventually all of them got battle suits and got out. The game was an awful stalemate, both sides overflowing with credits. It was mercifully ended when timelimit hit.

[juice]

I was told I was better off not eating you out as I could have and simply let you go on with your facade of ignorance to dwell in the land of happy unicorns and total game balance.  Though I reply, I do so out of the earnest reason to perhaps give you a broader spectrum of experience that you lack through no fault of anyone's.

Please take this post and use it as toilet paper.

[Echon]

I'm sorry but reading your dribble just leads me to think you have the typical fanboy mentality and can't just play a damn game without having to pick "sides". I think it's great that you like NS, and that you probably like it because you like CS, and probably found us on a random OMG THEY COPIED thread over on <insert random NS forum here>.

Complaining about games lasting too long? You can blame that on equally good (or bad) players being on the teams. I've seen just as many games last until the time limit as I have last 3 minutes because of a rush.

Anyway, kinda seems like you're LOOKING for reasons to attack the mod. Just shut up.

[CanadaDemon]

When I first started playing Trem a few days ago, almost 90% of my games (excluding the ones that were screwed by childish morons) were stalemates.

But now, I know how to play better and how to win, just like in ET. And now every game I play either has a winner or a loser.

I will reiterate the key concept : TEAM WORK.

I believe as more and more people realize how to play the game, we will have better and better games. And perhaps there will be more suggestions in how to improve it in the future.

If you're going to sit here and compare it to other games, and be completely negative, then you aren't helping.

As for camping: I'm going to type this in capitols, because maybe more people will pick up on it - CAMPING IS A PART OF THE GAME . You may not like it, but you have to deal with it anyways. The aliens at the start have to camp to get kills. Unless they want to risk dying and giving the other team kills.

Camping exsists in ALL FPSs. It happens. Get over it. And use it as a tool.

[Supa]

Another thing that puzzles me is: why is Basilisk so crippled against Battlesuit ? I mean, it's probably ok that poison becomes useless, but "restricts ability to turn" not working on battlesuit is an overkill. . Basilisk already has fairly low rate of fire(melee attack), and quite low damage. It takes about five hits to kill light armor marine. With halway competent marines, it's an eternity, plenty of time for another marine to kill you. Now battlesuits are much tougher than regular marines, and require much more time to kill from behind... I mean, WOULD require, because as soon as you grab him, he simply turns and kills you. Even if he can't, chances are he has Lucifer gun and can kill you with splash damage.
Making Baslilisk's hold ability work the same on light and heavy armor would be beneficial for gameplay and would promote teamplay. A basilisk would still need a ridiculous amount of time to kill a battlesuit alone, so you'd need a teammate to help finish him. Please, at least make basilisks good at assasination and ambushes. Even dretches can bring Battlesuit down, why not a basilisk, already stripped of poison ?

Hi.

While trying to say this as politely as possible, please practice a little more with the Basilisk. Once you learn the ins and outs you'll discover it really is the best alien class in the game, seriously.  =)

The trick is to approach humans from behind, grab them and then leap up onto their heads before slashing. Aliens can deal out much more damage to humans by landing headshots, and this matters most of all for the Basilisk. By sticking a human from behind, jumping on top of them and slicing away at their head, you'll find most humans will go down in only three slashes.

You'll need to use hit and run tactics against groups though, and I wouldn't recommend going up against anything greater than 1:4 odds.

[Edit: I should mention that you're going to have to be very quick on your feet to take down a battlesuit, strafing around them as you would strafe a turret. Also trying this against anything other than a single battlesuit would be the oppisite of a good idea.]

Also in general, please stick with Tremulous just a little longer, I'm sure that after a while you'll learn to love it. I understand that with all the new people coming in the teamwork aspect is a little lacking, but once everyone gets acquantied you'll get to see how fun this game really is.  =)

[Jex]

This is strenghtened by the fact map design is often disturbingly primitive, so primitive that Q3A CTF maps look confusing by comparison. Many maps are all about bottlenecks, and don't allow for any degree of finesse.

The could perhaps be attributed to the fact that all of our mappers have been heavily influenced by Gloom mapping, as that is where we all originated. The typical Gloom map would employ a room->hallway->room system rather than the more multi-layered 'arenas' of other games/mods. This system has clearly carried over into many of the current Tremulous maps. It is true that this creates a lot of bottlenecks; more than is perhaps favourable, but again, this is the same style of gameplay we all 'grew up' on playing Gloom.

That said, I can see the need for a break away from this formula. I will definitely be taking a different approach in future mapping endeavors. Hopefully a few others will do the same.

On top of that no thought seems to have been put into making maps wallwalk-friendly, with bizzarre ceiling decorations/irregular walls. Wallwalking dretch is often a free kill, because ww confuses him more than helps. It's ok for escaping, I guess.

The unfortunate truth here is that the maps were all made by mappers. There's nothing we like more than enlarging our e-penises by putting all manner of fancy pipes and fixtures and decorations all over the map. This, of course, is counterintuitive to the whole wall-walking concept. We have attempted to use clip brushes to ease the flow on busy walls and ceilings, but there's only so much one can do without making the aliens appear to be hovering along the walls.

However this is something I will be taking into greater consideration in the future, but in the end, we need to have a little fun sometimes too.

[kozak6]

It might be interesting if there were more vents for the smaller aliens as well.

[Nosfore]

Sure but no room reachable by alien only. This would be unfair.

[b0rsuk]

Sure but no room reachable by alien only. This would be unfair.

As long as they're reachable by dretches only, I see no problem. Unlike NS, you can't evolve to builder. However if grangers would fit there, additional care should be put into making sure no building can be placed in unreachable place; probably not fun for mappers. No, vents for grangers are probably a bad idea. You could hide one in vent and keep rebuilding overmind without danger.

About decorations: you can put them behind glass, or metal fence, both easy to walwalk on. Some maps already did it.