Aliens always win?

[ShiroBoshi]

I know I may seem naive that and it's pretty obvious that aliens seem to always win . . . but . . . is that always the case? I mean perhaps the aliens are overpowered? Or is it because all of the bad players take on the human team?
Feedback would be nice.  

[Risujin]

In 1.1.0, yes. Try a mod server.

[kevlarman]

Or is it because all of the bad players take on the human team?

that does happen a lot, but aliens are a bit stronger than humans in 1.1.0 (mostly because it makes much easier for one good alien player to singlehandedly win the game than a good human player). the development version has much closer human to alien win ratio: http://tremulous.sf.net/balance/tjw-lame_regen6/overall.png

[Shadowgandor]

lately, it's pretty even, humans seem to win alot as well.

[AKAnotu]

actually, it's the maps and skill of the players. the aliens have a slight advantage, but small enough that it comes down to those

[jit]

if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.

[B1ackmagic]

if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.

Atcs isn't neutral with ff on unless someone patchs
in no tk dmg for pounce and rampage (for the hallway).
On the other hand, who ever heard of equal skill level teams?
The players skill tends to be the dominating factor in most
games.  If the game is no more than a 3v3 then it does
favor aliens but only if no one feeds the humans past stage 1.
Huge games do slightly favor the humans dude to combined
ranged firepower, but skilled players can usually overcome that
without too much difficulty assuming their team can back them up.

note: atcs can be mostly neutral with lower player counts
(4-5 per team) as fewer players favors alien and the narrow hallway
with ff pouncing favors humans.

~ B1ackmagic

[kevlarman]

if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.

atcs favors humans almost as much as uncreation.

[Pacra]

Humans are the more powerful team, with their effectiveness lessened depending on how big the map is.  They are superbly effective on atcs, and absolutely terrible on, say, pulse.

[Nux]

Would you agree with the following?

Code: [Select]

IF AlienSkill?=False AND HumanSkill?=False THEN PRINT "Aliens Win"

IF AlienSkill?=False AND HumanSkill?=True THEN PRINT "Humans Win"

IF AlienSkill?=True AND HumanSkill?=False THEN PRINT "Aliens Win"

IF AlienSkill?=True AND HumanSkill?=True THEN PRINT "Humans Win"

It is by no means a thorough evaluation.. more an exaggeration.

[Please Note: I is not programmer 1337, but feel free to laugh at my 'kodez']

[Harry Joe]

A good human team can steamroll aliens pretty easily. The problem in most pubs is the majority of human players barely leave base and never attack unless someone else has allready done most of the work. A lot of human players will complain they never win, but it's as if they don't realize that you need to actually attack to be able to win.

 Most aliens will take sometimes up to 20-30 minutes to wear down a well made human base. Hell, I've played games where the entire time I was just going after the human base. Then the H players will complain that after 3 or 4 attacks they didn't completely kill us.

Honestly, with a lot of servers using unlagged now, a decent human team is more then capable of taking on aliens from s1 to s3. Too many players don't even bother using teamwork and get wrecked in the process. They blame overpowered aliens instead of a lack of their own, or their teams skills.

Which is kind of annoying, since there are enough of these players that the next versions will most likely seriously lack balance in real skilled gameplay.

[IabzO.o]

if skill level are equal >> and the map is neutral like atcs >> the humans will win. overpowering range weapons of groups of 8machinegunners could easily take out 8 dretchs and end the map very quickly.

ATCS isn't a neutral map, everyone will go in the hallway, and dretch can't hide well in hallway, since you know they're somewhere behind the corner, it's pretty easy to feint them...

Also, people don't seem the understand that human require a lot of teamplay, especialy at the begining of the game

[Nux]

Which is kind of annoying, since there are enough of these players that the next versions will most likely seriously lack balance in real skilled gameplay.

This is something I hoped to highlight in my 'kodez'.

Let's say that the 'kodez' (see my previous post) accurately model the situation. And let's make the assumption that there are far more new/weak ability players than there are skilled and experienced players. This would mean that:

Number of 100% skilled games < Number of mixed skill games < Number of 100% Weak ability games

Given all this is so, the majority of games would be won by aliens.

If the developers try to balance the overall wins for the two teams, they could very easily unbalance specific types of games (say for example the skilled vs. skilled games). So where having only the best against the best is the point (e.g. clanwars) this could cause trouble.

It would be a good idea to not just monitor the overall stats, but judge the seperate types of games aswell.

[Flower]

Aliens also need templay, and that's why they almost always lose during scrims. I guess it's because of the stupid share plugin (you don't need to use strat with that, only one guy do all the work).

[player1]

@OP
if Humans leave base
stick together
form fireteam
with 3-4 players
& someone at back running backwards
they can do a lot of damage
even at S1
once saw Humans win Karith in 2 minutes because granger had no time to move weak default positions for eggs & OM
Humans attacked immediately
all Aliens out hunting for lone Humans on other side of map
by Human base/crate room
2 minutes!!!
maybe a 6v6 to 8v8 game
pub server

granted Aliens need to work together, too
we were all out hunting alone... :oops:  :-?    :roll:

[Evlesoa]

try TremX, what do humans get? Surge, Cloak, Xael (Insta-Kill), Ammo Pack, BioKit, and a few other things... what aliens get?

Basi who can be invisible
Adv. Tyrant

What does this mean? Humans own aliens until aliens hit S3... and usually they DONT hit S3, because humans own them before S3... and even at S3, humans own aliens... Basically put, TremX favors humans! Try it, humans almost never lose

[player1]

hi evelsoa

also, note that veteran Trem players can play either side
whereas Trem n00bsters flock to Humans
due to steep Alien learning curve
(fuck pounce, which button is trigger?)
& players love to go Alien and rule the Human00bs

[Lava Croft]

If you play on a server where the 'better' players actually go Humans, you will see that they tend to win a lot. Sadly, most 'better' players rather go Aliens, so they can rack up kills while guarding a hallway with their Dragoon.

[a Granger]

:eek:
(thinking)

[Lord Baxter]

the way i see it humans are much better in respect to teamwork, with massed rapid-fire weapons quickly killing any aliens, aliens find this more difficult, not so much attacking in groups but individually fighting.
example: a human team might attack the alien base in a group, which usually gives good results, they are weakened when they go in small numbers.

an alien team is not good at attacking in groups, their size and limitation to close range fighting means that they are competing for space a lot of the times, if they take it in turns to pounce turrets, or attack from multiple directions they can be very effective

just my observations of the game, my word is by no means Definitive.

[jit]

also, note that veteran Trem players can play either side
whereas Trem n00bsters flock to Humans
due to steep Alien learning curve
(fuck pounce, which button is trigger?)
& players love to go Alien and rule the Human00bs

i remember playing alien and getting frustrated @ pounce. i would keep pouncing too high too low , not hold the button long enough . it took me about 2 weeks after starting to play trem to register my 1st pounce kill .

[temple]

I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.

Throw away the arguments about

• Alien regeneration and evolution any where on the map
• Humans limited ammo and regeneration
• Alien lack of base dependence
• Humans base dependence
• Humans needing coordination
• Aliens not needed as much coordination

At the end of the day, the human team does not have an answer for 5 tyrants sitting out of their base.

1 tyrant is 400 hitpoints and 200 Damage per Second (roughly).
5 tyrants is 2000 hitpoints and 1000 DPS.

Only 2 human weapons can dump out enough DPS to even compare to tyrants.  The painsaw and lucifer cannon can theoritically kill tyrants but we all know the drawbacks of those weapons.

The pulse rifle, flamer, and chaingun can be good but it is a matter of time when killing tyrants.  The pulse rifle takes 4.4 seconds to kill a tyrant, the flamer takes 4 seconds even, and the chaingun takes 5.3 seconds.  In the window of time, a tyrant can deal at least 800 damage before they die.

Of course people will say, what about having 2 humans attack at once.  Well, what about having 2 tyrants attacking at once.   Its a loss for the humans.  Once aliens get positioned comfortably outside the human base, its damn near impossible to reverse it.  Sure, you can chase them away, but they just spread out and kill a human somewhere else on the map.  They can reestablish their position quickly.

[Harry Joe]

I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.

A group of humans can take down packs of tyrants easily enough. Chainsuits with a lucy or two will kill them quickly, the answer to 5 tyrants is 6-7 humans. Attack right and they barely get swipes off before they crumble. Some selective camping to just drain their evo's would work just as fine and probably come much more natually to most. Analyzing DPS is fine for statistics, but in a real game there are distances and dodging and a lot of other factors.

And again, you are referring to a game where there are idiots wandering off on their own, aliens having 5 tyrants outside the base is a position that would be best to avoid, an offensive human team usually doesn't have to deal with that since the aliens are too busy tending to their base and getting shot.

[Evlesoa]

I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.

A group of humans can take down packs of tyrants easily enough. Chainsuits with a lucy or two will kill them quickly, the answer to 5 tyrants is 6-7 humans. Attack right and they barely get swipes off before they crumble. Some selective camping to just drain their evo's would work just as fine and probably come much more natually to most. Analyzing DPS is fine for statistics, but in a real game there are distances and dodging and a lot of other factors.

And again, you are referring to a game where there are idiots wandering off on their own, aliens having 5 tyrants outside the base is a position that would be best to avoid, an offensive human team usually doesn't have to deal with that since the aliens are too busy tending to their base and getting shot.

Ahh but you are wrong... To take down 2 tyrants, you need the power of 2 chainsuits right there... and its a guarantee you will lose a man if the tyrants arent pussies... To take down 5 tyrants, you need atleast 6-7 chainsuits, and a luci or 2... or you WILL lose a few men... The point is, if the tyrants have team work and no FF, you will be down to like 2-3 humans after 7-8 and an open space... 5 tyrants can over-run a base easily!

[Glunnator]

it's when there's no ff when it gets unbalanced.

[Survivor]

I've analyzed, theorized, contemplated, and thunk about it over and over.

We will see.

Throw away the arguments about

• Alien regeneration and evolution any where on the map
• Humans limited ammo and regeneration
• Alien lack of base dependence
• Humans base dependence
• Humans needing coordination
• Aliens not needed as much coordination

Will do

At the end of the day, the human team does not have an answer for 5 tyrants sitting out of their base.

Do they not?

1 tyrant is 400 hitpoints and 200 Damage per Second (roughly).
5 tyrants is 2000 hitpoints and 1000 DPS.

Yes obviously all tyrants are constantly hitting humans in headshots resulting in 1000 dps even when they are far away. Think that one over again.

Only 2 human weapons can dump out enough DPS to even compare to tyrants.  The painsaw and lucifer cannon can theoritically kill tyrants but we all know the drawbacks of those weapons.

We do, we all also know the drawback of tyrants.
But the fact that remains is the following. Tyrants and all other aliens aren't meant to be taken on 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4. And a cornerhugging tyrant can kiss my ass, i'm not going near that corner if i have the choice. So I have to make it so that I have a choice. That's why bases with only one entrance are good at defence and bad at offense. One spot for us to shoot at, one spot for them to slash at. Get two exits and the pressure is lower.

The pulse rifle, flamer, and chaingun can be good but it is a matter of time when killing tyrants.  The pulse rifle takes 4.4 seconds to kill a tyrant, the flamer takes 4 seconds even, and the chaingun takes 5.3 seconds.  In the window of time, a tyrant can deal at least 800 damage before they die.

Again, I've only seen afk tyrants go down in 4.4 seconds to pulse. Statistics aren't everything. Also at least 800 damage? See my previous comment.

Of course people will say, what about having 2 humans attack at once.  Well, what about having 2 tyrants attacking at once.   Its a loss for the humans.  Once aliens get positioned comfortably outside the human base, its damn near impossible to reverse it.  Sure, you can chase them away, but they just spread out and kill a human somewhere else on the map.  They can reestablish their position quickly.

The trick is not to let them, because I can also say what about two humans positioned comfortably outside alien base. Have you seen the massacre a pair of md's can do to dretches who can't evo because a human is near their base? Again the answer is diversion. Make sure you have another way out. They cannot be anywhere in number. And while the human base is pretty strong when supported by only a small part of the team the alien base is weak when not supported by a large number of aliens.

We're talking situations here. And we can't really predict them like you think.

[player1]

it's when there's no ff when it gets unbalanced.

I think you need to have friendly fire on (also), to really get the game

[temple]

Yes obviously all tyrants are constantly hitting humans in headshots resulting in 1000 dps even when they are far away. Think that one over again.

Doesn't matter, its still a whole lot of DPS coupled with high hitpoints.

But the fact that remains is the following. Tyrants and all other aliens aren't meant to be taken on 1 vs 1 or 4 vs 4.

I said 5 tyrants.  4 humans for 1 tyrants, what if there are 2 tyrants.  3 Tyrants?  How many people does it take?

Again, I've only seen afk tyrants go down in 4.4 seconds to pulse. Statistics aren't everything. Also at least 800 damage? See my previous comment.

If the raw numbers are that high, the average number isn't that far off.  Its still takes a long time to kill a tyrant solo, less if humans are paired, but what if tyrants are paired?  

The trick is not to let them, because I can also say what about two humans positioned comfortably outside alien base.
We're talking situations here. And we can't really predict them like you think.

Its a race against time that favor aliens more than humans.  Sure S2 humans can dominate against a S1 or S2 alien team.  But regardless, if the alien team can stay competitive in kills or hold out against humans, they will get S3 and its curtains.  

I'm not saying every game goes this way but its more likely than not.  I've played this out too many times.  The only real alternative is playing a map with a lot of air or vents.  Jetpackers can go over tyrants or go through places where tyrants can't reach.  But hey, it a helluva long way out and back into your base.

[prab]

because we are playing the what if game, S2 v S2. Humans setup a medi/repeater outside alien base. 5 humans are there with pulse rifle's. Aliens WILL get owned.

In both situations it took a while to get like that. The other team needs to break the camp fest before it gets started.

[player1]

because we are playing the what if game, S2 v S2. Humans setup a medi/repeater outside alien base. 5 humans are there with pulse rifle's. Aliens WILL get owned.

In both situations it took a while to get like that. The other team needs to break the camp fest before it gets started.

once saw the big doors (Alien base) on Tremor get welded shut by a repeater in the little pink room

maybe it was the multiplicity of wallhung acid tubes, which were going off constantly