Jetpack

[nisse]

The curent jetpack is nice but it limits map building a bit becouse the aliens have so little to offer in the ranged assault department.

I for example am thinking about starting to make a map that is above ground in a human city, the plot is that aliens have started an invasion on earth or some other planet in the human empire and you must stop them from establishing a permanent base, alien base will be underground in a sewer or something like that, but the main part of the battle i want faught above ground and thats the problem.

The current jetpack design has no max altitude or any fuel to run out, what i am proposing is makeing it more like a boster pack controled by the jump button, it's speed would also be highly increased, so when you press jump it will rocket you too your destination, but the "boost" will only last a short period of time untill it must selfrecharge(unlimited fuel like before but not unlimited airtime). This way it can be used by humans in the current maps to reach high places and an way to escape larger aliens like the tyrant, since even the lightest human can't outspeed the largest aliens right now.

[Moofed]

mmm... Boba Fett.

[Norfenstein]

This has been discussed before ad nauseam. The problem really is that new players tend to overestimate the value of the jetpack. Unless vital alien structures are out in the open (or are accessible via routes only jetpackers can reach) aliens can simply ignore jetpackers. The goal is to destroy their bases, not kill every human you see (and jetpacks stop working when the reactor goes down). Hovering way up in the sky isn't even a good place for sniping since you're essentially adding another dimension you have to aim in (and projectile weapons can be trivially dodged).

You can disable jetpacks entirely in your map if you need to, or you could just make the sky close enough to the tallest buildings for goons to threaten jetpacks, or give aliens enough cover to make sniping effectively impossible. Or just don't put your eggs and overmind out in the open and not worry about it - any human wasting time flying around in the sky is a human not defending his base or attacking the aliens'.

[nisse]

So what if you have have talked about jetpacks before? just becouse something has been talked about before does not mean you can't talk about it again in the future if the implementation could be done in a better way or a way that could allow more uses etc.

No i don't think the jetpack is very powerfull at all, since most of the time a jetpacker is just a slow moving lunch for an alien player, the only truly usefull map for it is transit were you can defend base with it were the aliens can not reach and you can hover outside thire base softening thire attack force while the heavy troops move in.

The problem would be jetpackers having a basic invoulnerablility to get to alien base and once there disable jetpack and leg it, or hovering out of reach defending enterence points to thire own base.

It is by the way quite easy sniping with the massdriver specialy when flying since you get a more secure spot and less objects in the way, the weapon could be a milimeter more powerfull but it is still a fine weapon, few shots to take out the smal aliens and verry usefull against the hit and run tactics used by tyrants since you can deal semi powerfull shots acuratly into thire backs.

My proposal would make jetpacks more usefull on maps with less headroom and allowing more types of maps what would be so horrible about that?

and no disabeling it would just make the human team weaker and give them less options specialy when building a base, alien builders can walk on walls afterall.

[juice]

jetpack is very overestimated in the eyes of people who play a few times.  once you get the hang of everything, you realize that norf is correct in his suggestion of simply ignoring jetpackers.  you can't worry about something you can't do anything about because then it is simply a distraction.

the way jetpacks currently work has proved to be fine and if there was any blazing unbalance coming from it, it would show in the balance graphs.  this, however, is not the case as we have a damned close to 1:1 ratio as far as wins go.

we're all ecstatic that you people like tremulous so much to give your input on it, but we really must ask that you use the search feature first or browse the old feedback discussions to see why some ideas were accepted and why some were not.  balance is not something that will be terribly tweaked; tremulous would not have gone out of beta if Timbo thought things were too unbalanced (which is why we have the balance graph).

[CanadaDemon]

Right, well jet packs may be useless, but if only a few people actually know that, then I'm still going to use it to distract the other players. Seriously, it's a tactic that people have to learn : distraction. Very important.

Oh and with Uncreation and Transit, it has been very easy for me to get into the alien base, and destroy it using a JP and a saw. I actually was the only one attacking once on Transit, and I destroyed the alien base 3 times using this method.

[nisse]

juice did you even read a word of what i said? i did not say the jetpack was too good at all, nor did i talk about balance, what im saying is that it could be more usefull while not limiting map designs.

as for statistics how is that done anyway? what player number is aimed at? becouse unless you have identical teams of identical skill on a mirrored map youl never have balance, a 10 player game will have a compleatly diferent balance dynamic than a 20 or 30 player game depending on map layout, weapons and so on.

[Norfenstein]

So what if you have have talked about jetpacks before? just becouse something has been talked about before does not mean you can't talk about it again in the future if the implementation could be done in a better way or a way that could allow more uses etc.

I didn't mean to dissuade you from bringing up an old subject - it is useful to revisit old ideas - but you should know you're not really bringing anything new to the table. In fact I think I made the very same suggestion when I first started playing during early development so it's not like I even think it's a bad idea, but I just don't think the jetpack is going to change. It doesn't need to and making it different would just be making it different. I would love to see someone make a mod of Tremulous with some fundamental changes such as this, but right now Tremulous itself isn't ready for experiments.

[KoS]

we have a damned close to 1:1 ratio as far as wins go.

Lately I experience that aliens win more often. At least if they have 3-4 experienced players amongst them. If 2-3 of them manage to become a tyrant than it's over for the humans.
Maybe if there would be 6-8 experienced human players and no newbies who feed the aliens... but still it's a bit harder for the human side I think...

Sorry for being a little Off Topic in this topic.

[b0rsuk]

You're right, they don't read your post.

Your only concern should be to provide enough comfortable places for alien structures. Make sure alien buildings can't be bombarded with no risk, and from afar. Aliens certainly can fight in open areas, it's the base defence that can be hard with open spaces.

I don't remember humans winning transit map. The  reasons are:
- having jetpack doesn't really make you deal more damage, and often makes you deal less (even more time to dodge lucifer and pulse; shotgun, chaingun, machinegun lose a lot of damage because of spread). I played my share of games and I have yet to see game-winning use of Mass Driver. Some people have good aim and ping, but it still takes a few shots to take many aliens down,  they're fast and they regenerate. Mass driver clip without battery pack is limited, and you run out of ammo quickly unless your aim is very good. Most people don't have _very_ good aim.
- there are enough places on Transit to hide alien buildings, as opposed to human buildings, and travel distances are big. When several marines go outside of the base, it doesn't take much effort to destroy undefended base.
Marauders are probably the best alien for open spaces.
----------------

I don't like your idea of changing jetpack because of other reasons. It would make jetpack more powerful, because out of sudden it would become a combat item. It would be possible to dodge a tyrant or dragoon.
At the moment the main downside of jetpack is that it's very slow, several times slower than most aliens. You can't chase anyone with jetpack. When you see marauder flying at you and about to zap, it's probably too late. You can't react quickly.

[Catalyc]

I don't remember humans winning transit map.

Obviously you still need to play more, Transit is a map where there is no decent alien base.  If humans stop camping and actually attack they ussually crush the alien base easly.

Lately I experience that aliens win more often. At least if they have 3-4 experienced players amongst them. If 2-3 of them manage to become a tyrant than it's over for the humans.
Maybe if there would be 6-8 experienced human players and no newbies who feed the aliens... but still it's a bit harder for the human side I think...

There are several reasons why humans seem to loose soo much, when infact I think that with balanced teams they are overpowered. First, people are still using default spots or the overrated Elevator/Lift room (that is a known deathtrap for any kind of camping humies), All maps have at least one ground spot that is much more effective than the default base, the key to base moving is communication and support, you need at least 4 guys defending the new base location. After relocated,  you HAVE to attack, sitting outside your base is what makes aliens stage up as fast, nothing is worse for aliens than a constant human attack, not 1 by 1, but in groups, as norf said on a server last night, a group of humans moving is basicly a bunch of humans camping outside of their base. As far as handling tyrants go, you need to chase them when they flee, staying inside your base while the tyrant eats up turret fire hoping your "Come on!" gesture scares him away isn't really going to do anything.

Ps: There are great guides and discussions on building, base raiding and other stuff  here and here.

[Silverius]

Actually there is a at least midly decent spot for aliens on Transit. At the end of the dead end tunnel under the railway is a small cave. The cave can be entered in two ways: through a vent shaft from the upper railway level and from the tunnel.

If I'm not mistaking about tubes it's possible to build a few from them from the bottom of the vent shaft and have them simultaneously defend the shaft and the base.

The base can't be attacked long range from the tunnel as the cave is at 90 degrees with the rest of the tunnel. To get in the base you have to go up a small ramp, jumping only works from about half the ramp. The tunnel is too low for jetpacks to be of any serious advantage.

[Catalyc]

Seen and destroyed many bases there, a human can mostly just walk and kill the OM from far away. As I think has been said many times, Jetpacks are never really an advantage unless the map requires it or its an egg hunt (which tend to happen mostly on Transit too FYI)

[juice]

let's all play the "i don't like your post so obviously you didn't read the post" game.

seriously, if you're just gonna keep this stuff up, go away.

[chompers]

Nisse, there are two ways to design a map, from an aesthetic point of view and from a gameplay point of view. In the end, one looks nicer, but the other is better to play on.

Tremulous has solid gameplay already, so rather than thinking of ways to change the gameplay to suit your desired aesthetic, you should be thinking of ways to adapt your desired aesthetic to the tremulous gameplay.

To make a map that people will enjoy playing, you should be thinking things like "These area are where the aliens will marshall, this fallback spot behind the human base is safe from tyrants but will be overrun by dretches in the early game, this is the shortcut humans can use once they get jetpacks, all these places you could hide eggs but these three are large enough for a hive..." then you fashion the look and theme of your map around those ideas.

So, you want a city over a sewer? On a scale that's realistic with tremulous you'd be looking at one or two street corners at most, so why not put the sewers under a multi-level carpark under a semi-collapsed office building? You can have plenty of windows, broken walls and sewer grates showing the outside scene without being able to reach the sky.

The snowy area on Karith is a good example of the way you must treat outdoor areas if you include them, and it's a good example of the fundamental limits of all BSP maps - BSP mapping is suited to lots of connected small to medium sized spaces, not sprawling GTA style cities.

[nisse]

Actualy I want an entire city with just a smal part of it being sever for default alien base with most of the fighting being done above ground, the main problem is that unlike other big roofed maps aliens can't run on sky, I don't want another inside map, trem has enough of those to last a life time.

And I know about having aesthetics vs gameplay and the only missing peice is the jetpack, but I guess il have to just turn it off and try to give the humans more of an edge in map layout to compensate, I tried coming up an idea that would work with my map and possible maps like it while still being verry usefull if not more usefull on the current set of maps but ah well.

Oh and juice be a real fluid and admit you either did not read my post or just glanced at it, I mean for example the first thing you say is that most newbies think the jetpack is too powerfull when my post just above it clearly states why I think the jetpack is rather weak and a waste of cash on most maps and no one at all in this thread had said they were too powerfull.

[KoS]

As far as handling tyrants go, you need to chase them when they flee, staying inside your base while the tyrant eats up turret fire hoping your "Come on!" gesture scares him away isn't really going to do anything.

You might be right and I have only one question: how is able a human squad to chase a tyrant, when it's much faster than they? If the tyrant leaves enough HP for the flee, I don't think that humans can follow him and kill him.

I will have to try the other suggestions that you said against the Aliens...
Teamspeak with voice might be a big help for humans...

[Silverius]

Two words: ranged weapons. Even the oh-so-slow lucifer cannon is faster than a tyrant (one reason why long small corridors leading up to a human base are a good thing).

Tyrants are indeed faster than humans, if the humans are not sprinting. Tyrants have a speed of 1.2 (120% of normal quake 3 run speed), humans normally 1.0 and when sprinting 1.2.

[Howitzer]

What i don't see is why they don't implement a flying alien?
I mean, a buglike alien is exactly what trem could need!
It could be a dretch-like creature with wings, meaning it can't move around like a chopper or anything, but more like a plane.
(Attacking would be the same as with the dretch, touch=damage.)

[Silverius]

Because there are wall walking, wall jumping, pouncing and snipering aliens. And because jetpacks mostly suck on decent maps.

[b0rsuk]

Tyrant moves 2 times faster when charging.
How to chase a tyrant ? Simple. Just chase it and you'll find it's blocked by dretches/dragoons. Sad but true. No one cares to wallwalk/use ceiling, they prefer to block tyrants instead.

I think jetpacks are good against big aliens (tyrant, dragoon) if you use hitscan weapon such as lasgun or mass driver. Machinegun and shotgun are not good because of spread. Having a jetpack on atcs or the elevator room map means there's no safe spot for big aliens. It prevents big aliens from resting and setting ambushes.
Jetpacks can also be good against alien bases. If you can sneak pulse rifle jetpack or lucifer jetpack into alien base, you can deal serious damage and destroy some buildings.
Jetpacks help to reduce traffic jams in tightly packed human bases.

[Arcozelo]

Obviously you still need to play more, Transit is a map where there is no decent alien base.  If humans stop camping and actually attack they ussually crush the alien base easly.

There is no need for a decent alien base. All you need is good players as grangers, and they'll respawn the overmind and some eggs around the map ad eternum. That's what happened last time I played the map and I'm still stunned as to how they managed to pull it out. Humans were all over the map, but still they would manage to find a spot overlooked time enough to spawn an overmind and have it live for half a minute, spawning countless eggs. And it's not like they were using l337 places where no one would remember looking - it's just that there are so many places that people can't be in all of them all of the time.

[Silverius]

Indeed. Thing is, many humans at the egg hunt stage forget their helmets and thus have to rely on plain old sight to spot those eggs. Even then a good alien team can make things very tedious though. I remember once doing that for something like 20 minutes before winning (by griefer unfortunately).

The problem with egg hunts for humans is that when they don't do it right the alien team can survive for long enough to get some kills, evolve, get more kills and reach stage 3. At which points the eggs no longer matter of course.

[Tweed]

Jetpacks serve but one purpose, to get from point a to point b faster, anything else is just a bonus and there's nothing more fun then proving that the jetpack doesn't make you safe. The way I see it you can put a limiter on the jetpack just as soon as you put one on wallwalking.

[SLAVE|Mietz]

Jetpacks serve but one purpose, to get from point a to point b faster, anything else is just a bonus and there's nothing more fun then proving that the jetpack doesn't make you safe. The way I see it you can put a limiter on the jetpack just as soon as you put one on wallwalking.

I don't see how the jetpack makes you faster.

Even on karith station in the elevator-room i get faster to the top-level by sprinting.
And moving forward with a jetpack is like walking.

I like the Bobba Fett idea

[kozak6]

Boba Fett?  Is it closer to say, a Tribes jetpack?

At any rate, I think the current jetpack is mostly fine.  Although, mappers do need to keep the jetpack in mind when composing maps.

[Tweed]

Jetpacks serve but one purpose, to get from point a to point b faster, anything else is just a bonus and there's nothing more fun then proving that the jetpack doesn't make you safe. The way I see it you can put a limiter on the jetpack just as soon as you put one on wallwalking.

I don't see how the jetpack makes you faster.

Even on karith station in the elevator-room i get faster to the top-level by sprinting.
And moving forward with a jetpack is like walking.

I like the Bobba Fett idea

On outpost it's a great shortcut to the alien base, a stealth route to the lift room on karith, a quick drop down the big shaft in transit, blah blah blah.

[Lava Croft]

Jettards Unite!