Shotgun Idea: internal magazine

[Ceaser342]

Alright

[TriedtoDestroyMetal]

well, actually if the population of people are knowledgeable and trustworthy regarding the subject in question, and this is a subject in which acceptable claims are made and generally agreed on, then yes you can accept the opinions of groups of people.

[Lava Croft]

Hey! You! Miscreants!

Don't you dare touching my !

[n00b pl0x]

this is about a suggestion to make the shotgun more realistic and fun to use.

YOU LOSE. GOODDAY SIRRAH.

realistic != good

must i remind you there are JETPACKS, BATTLESUITS, RADIATION GUNS, AND ALIENS FFS.

If trem was 100% realistic, you could only die once, and you couldnt ever come back.

so please lay off the crack and just go back to playing trem, instead of trying to fuck with it.

or better yet, quit and become a fulltime crack addict who steals copper for a living.

[Steely Ann]

or better yet, quit and become a fulltime crack addict who steals copper for a living.

Hey, at least he would never be bored, then, AMIRITE?

[n00b pl0x]

YOUISRITE

[Steely Ann]

OMG I MUS BE HAXXING AND FORGOT DEN LEWL

[Megagun]

blah blah flame blah

...what's wrong with realism in futuristic games?
Plus, we've got a rifle, too. And it's undeniable that both the rifle and the shotgun are modelled after today's standards, thus meaning that an idea to make the shotgun more 'realistic and fun to use' are validified...

But I guess you were just flaming, as usual, plox.

[Kaleo]

Since there are no reload animations in Trem...

[benmachine]

Yes there are - look at a human reloading.
Goodness me, is that an animation?
Yes, yes it is.

[Ceaser342]

NO YOU LOSE SIR!


With your overwhelmingly stupid and useless flaming.  I'm a Crack addict because I'm supporting a change to the shotgun?  Are you retarded or feel the need to make your dick feel big by yelling for no reason?  Hmm sounds like little man's syndrome to me.  So realism isn't always better.  I know that.  This however is just a suggestion.


Why do you need to flame this topic?  What have I done to you before this?  There are topics that are twenty times stupider then this so why don't you go flame them?  Why do you have to come over acting all big and bad just becuase someone thinks there needs to be a change?  Its not even a RETARDED change like others up right now.  Bsuit with a radar?  Go flame that.  Ckits that heal go flame that!

This forum is called FEEDBACK.  You suggest changes you think would be a good idea.  I have that right as a Tremulous player and a member of this forum.  I've not broken any rules by supporting this.  Go fucking get a life and lay off the steroids they don't make anything bigger accept your ego.

[Caveman]

I'm a Crack addict because I'm supporting a change to the shotgun?

No,you my dear Watson are retarded, because you support a suggestion that is one sided and does not even consider anything, beside giving the humans an advantage.

[benmachine]

no u.

[Ceaser342]

no u.

+1

One sided?  There have been plenty of suggestions here for balance that I like!

Slower over all reload.
Less Ammo over all.
May take stamina to shoot during reload.

If you had another suggestion please tell me.

[Plague Bringer]

If you flamers acutally take the time to read this thread as a whole, please tell me.

[munroe]

I read it all, but I'm a bit dumber for it. Does that count?

Maybe it does, because "I'm a bit dumber" sounds pretty dumb.

[xyblor]

Since some people still don't understand that I'm not advocating a more powerful shotgun, I would like to reiterate that I did not specify exactly how long it should take to reload one shell (let's call that "X"). This value could have a drastic impact on the overall usefulness of the shotgun.

What if it took 1 second to load a shell (X=1s)? Then it would take 8 seconds to fully reload. That's four times longer than the current clip-based shotgun. This would be a serious handicap in any fight that required more than 8 shells. Once your magazine is empty, your rate of fire would be effectively halved (1 second to load a shell + the standard 1 second to pump it into the chamber), or else you could try to dance around for EIGHT SECONDS while you fully reload. I don't think anyone could say for X=1 second, the shotgun would be more powerful. Yes, it will eliminate shell loss due to premature reloading, but we've already established that a reduction in the total ammo load could compensate for that.

To those of you who say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I understand where you're coming from, but in my view having four totally different weapons using the exact same clip-based reload method is a shortcoming, and is missing out on an opportunity to add more richness and flavor to the game. Realism has nothing to do with my argument; nor do other video games.

So I suggest that everyone propose a value for X. For the current shotgun, X=0.25 seconds. I agree that with one shot reloading, it has to be higher than that to balance the advantage given. Probably X=1 second is too high. I imagine something around X=0.5 seconds would be about right, but it would have to be play-tested to find the right value.

@ Ceaser: the stamina loss idea is neat, but I don't think think you should be able to shoot at all while loading shells. There has to be a moment of defenselessness.

@ Plague Bringer: I think that the reload button should work just like the shoot button: if the gun is "loadable" and the button is pressed (or already depressed), you load a shell. I suppose that right after a shot, you would have to pump a shell into the chamber, and during that second, the gun would not be loadable. If you empty your gun you would automatically load and pump a shell immediately without having to press anything (if you have ammo left that is). I still think right-click reloading is a must.

Regarding animation: the current reload animation consists of lowering the gun, holding it stationary, then raising it again. We could just edit that animation, eliminating enough of the stationary portion so that the whole animation only lasts as long as X. It doesn't really need to be "extensible" - just repeat the whole thing for each shell reload. We'd also need another animation for when you fire your last shot that lasts X + 1 second (load + pump), otherwise the gun would be raised before it's shootable.

It's not a perfect solution, but good enough for play-testing I think. Depending on the format, I might be able to edit the animation myself.

Again, I look forward to all of the thoughtful, open-minded and on-topic comments which are forthcoming. The high degree of respect and literacy displayed by the community makes me proud to be a part of it. Thank you.

[Ceaser342]

I would say X=0.75

[dextertrax]

I'm a Crack addict because I'm supporting a change to the shotgun?

No,you my dear Watson are retarded, because you support a suggestion that is one sided and does not even consider anything, beside giving the humans an advantage.

...  You're running a beat down on someone who was just flamed by an idiot.  Being able to load a shotty shell by shell is an interesting idea; I don't know if it'd be practical due to other 1.2 balance changes but it's interesting nonetheless.

[n00b pl0x]

blah blah flame blah

...what's wrong with realism in futuristic games?
Plus, we've got a rifle, too. And it's undeniable that both the rifle and the shotgun are modelled after today's standards, thus meaning that an idea to make the shotgun more 'realistic and fun to use' are validified...

But I guess you were just flaming, as usual, plox.

real life is always going to be the inspiration for futuristic games considering we live in real life and its easy to do...uhm dur.

so, if i were to quote your post like you quoted mine, it would look like "blah blah suck blah"

Since there are no reload animations in Trem...

it just hurts to watch you fall on your fase every time you attempt to flame.

NO YOU LOSE SIR!


With your overwhelmingly stupid and useless flaming.  I'm a Crack addict because I'm supporting a change to the shotgun?  Are you retarded or feel the need to make your dick feel big by yelling for no reason?  Hmm sounds like little man's syndrome to me.  So realism isn't always better.  I know that.  This however is just a suggestion.


Why do you need to flame this topic?  What have I done to you before this?  There are topics that are twenty times stupider then this so why don't you go flame them?  Why do you have to come over acting all big and bad just becuase someone thinks there needs to be a change?  Its not even a RETARDED change like others up right now.  Bsuit with a radar?  Go flame that.  Ckits that heal go flame that!

This forum is called FEEDBACK.  You suggest changes you think would be a good idea.  I have that right as a Tremulous player and a member of this forum.  I've not broken any rules by supporting this.  Go fucking get a life and lay off the steroids they don't make anything bigger accept your ego.

Make no mistake, even though it might excite you a little to say you make my dick get big, you do not turn me on. please dont talk to me about your fantasies about me.

I feel the need to flame this topic because it actually has people stupid enough to support it, unlike the other topics.

Im not acting big and bad, im just trying to stop idiots like you from supporting idiotic ideas like this.

Uhm...steroids make muscles grow easier...and thats a rather retarded flame because ill be the first to admit that at 130 lbs and 5'11'' im rather skinny, and dont intend to build much muscle at all.

My ego is big because of people like you, if there werent so many dumbasses around, my ego would not be the size it is.

no u.

dont use my frase to support something as retarded as this fourth-baked idea.

If you flamers acutally take the time to read this thread as a whole, please tell me.

if you take your head out of your ass long enough to realize what people around you are doing, please tell me.

I read it all, but I'm a bit dumber for it. Does that count?

Maybe it does, because "I'm a bit dumber" sounds pretty dumb.

ahahaha couldnt have said it better myself.

What if it took 1 second to load a shell (X=1s)? Then it would take 8 seconds to fully reload.

To those of you who say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I understand where you're coming from, but in my view having four totally different weapons using the exact same clip-based reload method is a shortcoming, and is missing out on an opportunity to add more richness and flavor to the game. Realism has nothing to do with my argument; nor do other video games.

@ Ceaser: the stamina loss idea is neat, but I don't think think you should be able to shoot at all while loading shells. There has to be a moment of defenselessness.

@ Plague Bringer: I think that the reload button should work just like the shoot button: if the gun is "loadable" and the button is pressed (or already depressed), you load a shell. I suppose that right after a shot, you would have to pump a shell into the chamber, and during that second, the gun would not be loadable. If you empty your gun you would automatically load and pump a shell immediately without having to press anything (if you have ammo left that is). I still think right-click reloading is a must.

Regarding animation: the current reload animation consists of lowering the gun, holding it stationary, then raising it again. We could just edit that animation, eliminating enough of the stationary portion so that the whole animation only lasts as long as X. It doesn't really need to be "extensible" - just repeat the whole thing for each shell reload. We'd also need another animation for when you fire your last shot that lasts X + 1 second (load + pump), otherwise the gun would be raised before it's shootable.

It's not a perfect solution, but good enough for play-testing I think. Depending on the format, I might be able to edit the animation myself.

Again, I look forward to all of the thoughtful, open-minded and on-topic comments which are forthcoming. The high degree of respect and literacy displayed by the community makes me proud to be a part of it. Thank you.

so, you want to add a fancy animation to shotgun, and make the reload last 8 seconds. and yet, you dont want anyone to be able to shoot while reloading for 8 seconds. youre effectively wasting graphical effort and just nerfing the reload time.

yes, a lot of weapons all have the same reload. and guess what "it aint broke, so dont fix it."

I agree that it isnt a perfect fix, but it is not the least bit decent.

nice try to discorage me from responding there at the end, but it didnt work :wink:

[xyblor]

so, you want to add a fancy animation to shotgun, and make the reload last 8 seconds. and yet, you dont want anyone to be able to shoot while reloading for 8 seconds. youre effectively wasting graphical effort and just nerfing the reload time.

yes, a lot of weapons all have the same reload. and guess what "it aint broke, so dont fix it."

I agree that it isnt a perfect fix, but it is not the least bit decent.

nice try to discorage me from responding there at the end, but it didnt work :wink:

- I explicitly stated that an 8 second reload (X=1 second) would be too long. I only suggested that value for the sake of argument, to show that the "internal magazine" shotgun could be more OR less powerful than the clip-based shotgun, depending on the value of X. I'm saying that the with the right value for X, it will be just as good as the old shotgun, just with a twist. So I'll ask again: how long do you think it should take to load a single shotgun shell in order to maintain the balance of the weapon?

- I suggested a "quick and easy" way to create functional animations, and volunteered to do it myself.

- When I said "it's not a perfect fix" I was referring to the animation solution I had proposed.

- I would like to debate the potential merits and drawbacks of the feature I proposed. Point out the faults of the proposition in detail to its supporters. What's wrong with it? (I don't find "it's retarded" and "change is bad" to be persuasive arguments.)

[player1]

@OP & interested readers:

Well, now that pl0x and caveman made me actually think about it, I realize that this is a bad idea (for Tremulous). Here's why. The server only tells the client the absolute minimum it must about changes in the game world. With your idea of having the server have to tell me that I just ran thru eight reload animations, it doesn't matter if you make the individual shell reload very short. You've added to the complexity of what the virtual machine has to tell the client to render. :-?

(It's just like when you get "stuck" to a wall you are just rubbing up against: it take valuable milliseconds for the server to gather up all of the updates and parcel them back out again, and meanwhile you're dead. Tremulous plays fast and smooth just like it is now.)

While I agree that it is an interesting idea from a tactical standpoint, I don't think it's necessary, and I don't think anyone with a slow framerate is going to really get that caught up in using it. Which is pretty much what the people you think are flaming you said, I just turned down the heat to a low simmer.

Yelling "idiot" at people is a well-respected TremForum tradition, endorsed by Timbo himself. Get used to it or hie thee to the curb. :wink:

Check out a few of the Good Ideas I've had....  :roll:

You sound like a cool person with thoughtful suggestions who is even willing to make them happen. Don't worry about n00b pl0x flaming you. He's got a low tolerance for other people's shortsightedness sometimes, but after giving me lots of crap early on, he's now my forum pal. Sometimes the people who challenge you the most are the people worth interacting with...

I could be wrong, but read this and see what you think:

Networking
Quake 3 uses a "snapshot" system to relay information about game "frames" to the client over UDP. The server updates object interaction at a fixed rate independent of the rate clients update the server with their actions, and then attempts to send the state of all objects at that point in time (the current frame) to each client. The server attempts to omit as much information as possible about each frame, relaying only differences from the last frame the client confirmed as received. Almost all data packets are compressed using Huffman coding using static pre-calculated frequency data, to reduce bandwidth even further.

Italics mine.

I admit I don't know that much about it, but if you look up Huffman coding and virtual machine you'll see that adding multiple repeated animations is not going to make Tremulous play any smoother. Just my wiki-informed opinion. Feel free to enlighten me.

why are you people so stupid?

...what's wrong with realism in futuristic games?
Plus, we've got a rifle, too. And it's undeniable that both the rifle and the shotgun are modelled after today's standards, thus meaning that an idea to make the shotgun more 'realistic and fun to use' are validified...

But I guess you were just trying to talk sense to the thick-headed, as usual, plox.

[flame]
Idiot! :evil: pl0x is absolutely right about realism. The machine gun and shotgun are holdovers from Trem's Q3a genesis. They are in no way "modelled after today's standards". They are inherited from Quake, and before Quake, from Doom. They don't even look like "real" guns! How much more obvious could their provenance be? Think before you type! The Tremulous shotgun is so NOT the Remington 870 Wingmaster that your dad shoots geese with.

The machine gun is the default Quake3 weapon, and the shotty is a valuable tool that's well-respected in the shooter world as the alternative to the assault rifle. Trem has very little backstory, but it is about alien bugs and space marines who all look alike. Realistic? I hate to be flamey, but would you people stfu about the friggin' realism already?!? Worthless argument. Completely invalid. Grade: PHAIL!

"Yes, Quake should be more like life (or more life-like)." Go play a game about washing the dishes. When I hear people say that scifi shooter games should be more realistic it makes me think you don't get Doom/Quake/Tremulous at all. Umm... space marines? Blasters? Invading aliens? Hello? There are plenty of SWAT/Infiltration/WWII/Combat/youpickthescenario games to play for realism. Might I recommend Enemy Territory?  By the way, the word you're searching for is "validated". Your argument, however, is not. Jackass... :roll:
[/flame]

If anyone wants an informed opinion about the shotgun, ask _Equilibrium_. He can slay with that sucker. Without any nerfed/buffed/reanimated single-shot reload modification.

[benmachine]

player1: in comparison with the standard strains of aiming, firing, and damaging things, a message every 0.75 seconds to say "we're still reloading"  will be barely noticeable in bandwidth terms - and that's all that the client needs to trigger the animation.
On the note of realism: imagine stamina allowed people to jump only once, or to jump hundreds of times in a row. People would whine because either scenario is absurd - real people can't do that. Believing in aliens, pulse rifles, jetpacks etc. is actually on the whole not that hard - who knows what will happen in the future - but humans are always humans and shotguns are always shotguns.
xyblor, personally I think doing a speeded up reload animation eight times to refill your weapon is not a good idea. Just think how it will look - like some kind of bizarre dance.
n00b pl0x - two points for you:
1. Nobody in this thread is going to suddenly say "oh wait, n00b pl0x is right, I AM an idiot" so your time here is wasted.
2. no u is not now and has never been "yours".

edit - hay guys I did some coding. The reloading animation seems to shorten automatically, which is nice, but just setting shotgun max clips to 24 and reloads to only refill one shell was confounded by the fact that maxClips appears to be capped at 8. Not hard to workaround, but we've only got a one-digit display there anyway.
further edit - it looks like only 4 bits are allocated to maxclips, so it can go as high as 15 but no higher. The 1 kind of overflows a bit, looks very odd.

[Ceaser342]

If all this is a new reload animation or something along those lines why the need for flames?  This could be the NERF you want coupled with some eye candy.  We all like eye candy don't we?

This could go good with a new much more deep booming sound for a shotgun shot.  BOOM chic chit OOM chic chit.  Who doesn't like that?  Also I don't believe the Trem rifle can even be considered a rifle.  Its a Sub-machine gun.

[xyblor]

edit - hay guys I did some coding. The reloading animation seems to shorten automatically, which is nice, but just setting shotgun max clips to 24 and reloads to only refill one shell was confounded by the fact that maxClips appears to be capped at 8. Not hard to workaround, but we've only got a one-digit display there anyway.
further edit - it looks like only 4 bits are allocated to maxclips, so it can go as high as 15 but no higher. The 1 kind of overflows a bit, looks very odd.

What about when using shotgun, you switch the display locations for "clips left" and "shots in clip"?

[n00b pl0x]

On the note of realism: imagine stamina allowed people to jump only once, or to jump hundreds of times in a row. People would whine because either scenario is absurd - real people can't do that. Believing in aliens, pulse rifles, jetpacks etc. is actually on the whole not that hard - who knows what will happen in the future - but humans are always humans and shotguns are always shotguns.
xyblor, personally I think doing a speeded up reload animation eight times to refill your weapon is not a good idea. Just think how it will look - like some kind of bizarre dance.
n00b pl0x - two points for you:
1. Nobody in this thread is going to suddenly say "oh wait, n00b pl0x is right, I AM an idiot" so your time here is wasted.
2. no u is not now and has never been "yours".

edit - hay guys I did some coding. The reloading animation seems to shorten automatically, which is nice, but just setting shotgun max clips to 24 and reloads to only refill one shell was confounded by the fact that maxClips appears to be capped at 8. Not hard to workaround, but we've only got a one-digit display there anyway.
further edit - it looks like only 4 bits are allocated to maxclips, so it can go as high as 15 but no higher. The 1 kind of overflows a bit, looks very odd.

On the note of realism: imagine a small, brown alien that can jump millions of times in a row without getting tired and morph into a wide range of aliens.

Oh wait, youre right. That IS extremely easy to believe. :roll:

1. if you keep saying things like the above comment, if they have any sense theyll come around :wink:
2. Too bad. I stole it, and you aint getting it back.
3. Notice how almost none of the usual forum browsers have said anything in response to this post? its because they are on my side but refuse to show that they agree with me because im n00b pl0x

[sleekslacker]

3. Notice how almost none of the usual forum browsers have said anything in response to this post? its because they are on my side but refuse to show that they agree with me because im n00b pl0x

Yeaaah right. I'm here to state that I'm not on your side. Shame on you for your attempt.

I'm fine with this idea. Tremulous was not designed to conform to the reality. But it still have some bits and pieces of of reality and imagination jumbled up together. Personally, I'm curious to see how this plays out. It is a fact that the shotgun is not very ammo-efficient. But it's still very powerful today, so I don't care if nobody implements this idea.

Just because it conforms to reality, does not mean it is a bad idea.

[n00b pl0x]

Yeaaah right. I'm here to state that I'm not on your side. Shame on you for your attempt.

ahahahaha you thought i was talking about you? i forgot you even came on these forums still lmao.

but still, its nice to see someone still remembers you ( well one person that is :roll: ) [ just to make sure i didnt lose you, that person is you  ]

and yes, i agree that some realistic ideas can be nice, but when youre dealing with boneheads, its safer to make a blanket statement than say "well usually realistic ideas are bad but..."

[AKAnotu]

3. Notice how almost none of the usual forum browsers have said anything in response to this post? its because they are on my side but refuse to show that they agree with me because im n00b pl0x

Yeaaah right. I'm here to state that I'm not on your side. Shame on you for your attempt.

I'm fine with this idea. Tremulous was not designed to conform to the reality. But it still have some bits and pieces of of reality and imagination jumbled up together. Personally, I'm curious to see how this plays out. It is a fact that the shotgun is not very ammo-efficient. But it's still very powerful today, so I don't care if nobody implements this idea.

Just because it conforms to reality, does not mean it is a bad idea.

not agreeing with pl0x

[benmachine]

I dedicate this game + cgame mod to n00b pl0x:
http://www.bandstand.org.uk/~benm/trem/wwwBase/shotgun/vms-shotgun0001.pk3
Make a shotgun/ directory next to base/, drop that in, start up a client, select it from the mods menu, /devmap atcs
k?