Great change for human

[IabzO.o]

So, I was thinking of that a long time ago, about the HUGE advantage Alien have against the humans when both team are Stage 1, So I asked myself, what would be the best idea, that would encourage humans players to go out of their base, that would actuly require skill to do.

And I though of something: What if Human had unlimited jumping?
But then I asked myself, wouldn't it be too overpower? So, I had another idea, What if human WITHOUT a battlesuit would have unlimited jumping, with an armor reduction (reduce the helmet/light armor effectiveness) and maybe a "Radar-usefulness reduction"(Radar refresh time would be a little bit slower, Can't see friendly units or/and can't see how high an alien is compared to you)

So here is a list of advantage:
-Can use the circle jumping trick
-A good defense against ground headshot
-Make the humans actuly get out of the base, since they will be able to fight and not get one shotted
-Would encourage people to play human more often

Disadvantage:
-Reduce the armor value of light armor/helmet
-Reduce the radar effectiveness
-Can't be used while your a battlesuit

Post your comments please.
PS:Sorry for any spelling error

[David]

Or humans could just learn to shoot straight...

[IabzO.o]

Shooting straight? I don't get it, I was talking about dodging, you can't kill a good Tyrant if you only shot straight but can't dodge.  :roll:

[Ere]

The only inaccuracy I can see is the fact that people almost always seem to defect to humans, not aliens.  Aliens are very hard for some.

[IabzO.o]

But the problemes is, at a higher level of game play, most of the players are better with aliens, especialy with unlagged on, might not be the same case with the Dretch class, but unlagged help Mara, Dragoon and Tyrant by a ton.

Sure the game will be hard for the new alien player, but they're new, if someone explain them how to do ground headshot, and circle-jumping, the next step will be to actuly use how-to-get-to-a-human-faster method(Pounce, charge and the circle-jump) And at this point, where the alien is now an average player, this is where the human team will have a lot of trouble with the alien team.

[Megaman]

I'm sorry to say this but, Humans are actually overpowered.  I say this from experience, and having a strong familiarity with both teams (if you play with me, you know this very well

Don't flame me for this statement, but think of the facts.

1. The humans are so good that you have to restrict their use of certain tactics/weapons ingame.  (camping/lucifer cannon)
2. A human who can hit effectively is often-times kicked/banned for "aimbotting" even if he is not.  Very few alien players get kicked this way.
3. The humans' assault potential is geometrically increased with each man in a fire-team.  Aliens still have a basic 1v1 chance (range restrictions).

Basically, the humans don't need to be made better.  The people playing them do.  (It only takes 5 bullets to kill a dretch, learn to hit)

Now, this is only speaking from the experiences I have had playing base.

[E-Mxp]

-Can use the circle jumping trick

Yay, trickjumping!!

If this will happen I want a trickjump map

[player1]

i believe that i agree with the traditionalists
Megaman speaks the truth
learn to shoot
Humans in a pack can help each other
Aliens in a pack just wound each other
stay with your squaddies!

[IabzO.o]

i believe that i agree with the traditionalists
Megaman speaks the truth
learn to shoot
Humans in a pack can help each other
Aliens in a pack just wound each other
stay with your squaddies!

I totaly disagree, humans in a pack can't dodge for sh*t, they easily shoot on each other(5-6++) and are free kills for the Dragoon/Mara/Lisk
who know how to work together, I'm pretty sure by "Aliens in a pack just wound each other" you are talking about A.T.C.S Hallway
But then other strategy can be adapted. (As a goon swap)

[player1]

i believe that i agree with the traditionalists
Megaman speaks the truth
learn to shoot
Humans in a pack can help each other
Aliens in a pack just wound each other
stay with your squaddies!

I totaly disagree, humans in a pack can't dodge for sh*t, they easily shoot on each other(5-6++) and are free kills for the Dragoon/Mara/Lisk
who know how to work together, I'm pretty sure by "Aliens in a pack just wound each other" you are talking about A.T.C.S Hallway
But then other strategy can be adapted. (As a goon swap)

no trail each other and watch your buddy's back, with one guy bringing up the rear running backwards like in Quake
whenever the hallway widens, form a firefront before aliens close in
when melee begins, dodge, heal, dodge, shoot, run, dodge, shoot, strafe

[Mad_Joe]

First of all, I agree with Megaman... humans, when played by experienced players, are at least a match for aliens, if not more. Ranged attacks, by common sense, allow more players to attack a single target than melee attacks. True, a group of inexperienced humans can end up shooting each other as much as the aliens, but for the sake of argument let's assume both teams are reasonably competent.

But back to the main point of the topic: no restriction on jumping. Even if the humans were underpowered, I don't think this would be the way to solve it. Firstly, would jumping be adequate for the kind of dodging you're referring to? Secondly, you would get the bunny hopping and other such things that the stamina system hopes to remove. Overall, I disagree that unlimited jumping would improve Tremulous.

What I would propose if humans were found to be in need of dodging abilities: don't make unlimited jumping, but maybe buff jumping so it would be better for dodging. Also (I don't know if this has been discussed in earlier threads) add a roll system.

I don't think human's dodging need upgrading, though.

[Seffylight]

lrn2play kthx

[Eeeew Spiders]

I think both perspectives have their validity. Each statement about balance are valid in a certain given context, and completely untrue in another context.

Tremulous is both a public game style with high player count and  EGO based playing style and teamplay oriented low player count clan match game style. What is true for public games is not true for clan matches, and what is true for clan matches is not always true for public games.
Since the Tremcommunity consists out of both player groups, its is not possible to define one good balanced setting for all types of games.
Even if you take just the Clan match situation, the balance situation is highly dependant on the number of players and map type.

As an example, given 2 strong and equal clan teams playing each other on ATCS. In a 3vs3 game, this is almost always a win for aliens. From a certain evolve stage of aliens (mara/goons), the human base cannot be left unattended for a longer period of time. This reduces the teamplay component, since an attacking human assault group can consist only of 2 players for longer periods of time.
Same map and same player skill, but a 4vs4 or a 5vs5 look dramatically different. Humans can have an effective size for their assault team and given perfect teamplay should win the match.

So how can you balance a 3vs3 ATCS clan match without affecting balance of a 4vs4 ATCS clan match by using the same settings and possibilities? In my opinion you can't, but the developers have tried their best to find a setting that does not unbalance the game to much in regards to different team sizes.

Now, public games are a whole different matter again. There is a big gradation of skill and willingness or ability of teamplay. Sometimes its hard to move teammates to participate in teamplay and this leads to single Rambo actions of which the result is highly dependent on individual skill.
The balancing of these kinds of play styles is entirely impossible for all cases. But to give a Rambo the chance to be more successful with individual actions its not entirely a mistake to consider improvement in the game for solo executed human actions.

As with the current balance issues (I may be wrong)

hs1 < as1
hs2 > as2
hs2 >= as3

can make for interesting strategical games. Aliens need to try to reach S3 before humans reach S2, and humans need to try to reach S2 or S3 before aliens reach S3.
This leads to not only different evolve/technology stages, but also to very diverse tactical stages of the game. This is very unlike to many other game systems and makes tremulous attractive.

[St. Anger]

lrn2play kthx

Iabz is actually a very good player >.>

[IabzO.o]

As an example, given 2 strong and equal clan teams playing each other on ATCS. In a 3vs3 game, this is almost always a win for aliens. From a certain evolve stage of aliens (mara/goons), the human base cannot be left unattended for a longer period of time. This reduces the teamplay component, since an attacking human assault group can consist only of 2 players for longer periods of time.
Same map and same player skill, but a 4vs4 or a 5vs5 look dramatically different. Humans can have an effective size for their assault team and given perfect teamplay should win the match.

I suppose you were talking about ATCS hallway, because in the midle the Alien team can easily manage 2-3 goon attacking the same group, now for the ATCS hallway, sure, 4-5 humans can be a pain, now you if you add some strategy to the game, the Alien will try to flank the Human team, maybe someone will call the flank, but the flank will still go on, the goon will be half way to the human group, while the other goon who are in their base will go on the human team, So that make 2 Dragoon behind the 4 humans and 2 Dragoon in front, 2 goon can fight togheter in the ATCS hallway.

[IabzO.o]

First of all, I agree with Megaman... humans, when played by experienced players, are at least a match for aliens, if not more. Ranged attacks, by common sense, allow more players to attack a single target than melee attacks. True, a group of inexperienced humans can end up shooting each other as much as the aliens, but for the sake of argument let's assume both teams are reasonably competent.

But back to the main point of the topic: no restriction on jumping. Even if the humans were underpowered, I don't think this would be the way to solve it. Firstly, would jumping be adequate for the kind of dodging you're referring to? Secondly, you would get the bunny hopping and other such things that the stamina system hopes to remove. Overall, I disagree that unlimited jumping would improve Tremulous.

What I would propose if humans were found to be in need of dodging abilities: don't make unlimited jumping, but maybe buff jumping so it would be better for dodging. Also (I don't know if this has been discussed in earlier threads) add a roll system.

I don't think human's dodging need upgrading, though.

Thanks for your comment, but the human team would also have some reduction to their defense mechanism and a reduction to the radar effectiveness, so the human team will need to have a good dodging skill, not only having the most credits.

[Diggs]

I always felt that the humans had a substantial advantage when both are at S1, but since I suck so badly at Alien, I don't have a valid perspective.

[Plague Bringer]

Humans are overpowered, learn to play them.
They are good in groups.

It's the players that are lacking.

[St. Anger]

Humans are overpowered, learn to play them.
They are good in groups.

It's the players that are lacking.

Then explain why in most clan matches with players at even skill, why do aliens mostly always win?

[Eeeew Spiders]

so the human team will need to have a good dodging skill, not only having the most credits.

personally I don't like S3 vs S3, or bsuits/lucy vs tyrants. The game appears to be more static when those stages are reached. So for the game play aspect I totally agree with you.

So that make 2 Dragoon behind the 4 humans and 2 Dragoon in front, 2 goon can fight togheter in the ATCS hallway.

Yes, maybe I am wrong with the actual numbers. I just wanted to point out that when someone throws in the balance card against new ideas, that balance is already different for different game types and player count. A statement like team X is overpowered or it is balanced is only valid in certain contexts and cannot be generalized.

The only way how to ensure balanced state independent of player count and game style is to make the two races more equal, which your dodging idea mildly tends to lead to (more emphasis on individual play) and I can't say i dislike it, but I hope also it doesn't diminish the requirement of teamplay to be able to survive as humans.

[NiTRoX]

Humans are overpowered, learn to play them.
They are good in groups.

It's the players that are lacking.

Then explain why in most clan matches with players at even skill, why do aliens mostly always win?

Because humans are overpowered, when you learn to play them.
And because they are good in groups.

[Steely Ann]

Not sure how bunny-hopping's gonna help them avoid getting torn up by dretch swarms and the like.

Maybe I'm just not reading this right?

[FreaK]

Humans are overpowered, learn to play them.
They are good in groups.

It's the players that are lacking.

Then explain why in most clan matches with players at even skill, why do aliens mostly always win?

Because humans are overpowered, when you learn to play them.
And because they are good in groups.

Is that quote even supposed to make any sense?? Your telling anger to learn to play humans. Ok

[janev]

Humans are overpowered, learn to play them.
They are good in groups.

It's the players that are lacking.

Then explain why in most clan matches with players at even skill, why do aliens mostly always win?

Simple.... Noone is 1337 enough to pwn with the humans

[mooseberry]

Well, I'm not taking sides for what side is better, but it would be nice to have somewhat unlimited jumps. (unlimited jumps, but a small wait time inbetween.)

[Blade]

I totally agree with Megaman. And when unlagged gets switched on, and a few humans decide to hold the hallway in ATCS with their rifles, a lone dretch can't get anywhere near its prey. And it seems to be an unspoken truth to me that unlagged is a sad piece of balance - it was thought that the game was swayed aliens (personally, as it should be; if it is possible to look at Tremulous as being a giant alien invasion war, of course the aliens are winning) so we introduce unlagged to help humans hit more shots. The result is that they hit shots that they didn't actually aim with any degree of skill as well as the shots that were fired with extreme care.

[Henners]

So, I was thinking of that a long time ago, about the HUGE advantage Alien have against the humans when both team are Stage 1,

Shooting straight? I don't get it, I was talking about dodging, you can't kill a good Tyrant if you only shot straight but can't dodge.

OBJECTION![/size][/url]

[A_Total_noob]

Actually, in a S1 v S1, I murder teh dretches like there is no tomorrow,
so I dont think that humans are actually underpowered...


Oh, and I actually like that in this game, the dreaded 'bunny hopping' is under control - removing the stamina bar would not be very smart.

Not trying to flame you, but I say 'no' to the suggestion  

[Plague Bringer]

Humans are overpowered, learn to play them.
They are good in groups.

It's the players that are lacking.

Then explain why in most clan matches with players at even skill, why do aliens mostly always win?

Simple.... Noone is 1337 enough to pwn with the humans

There aren't people who have enough teamplay skills working in a group. The human team is NOT a solo mission, it's a large group effort. Unless you attack in a group, cover eachother, and split into fireteams, not to mention havign communication, you're fucked. That goes for all stages, not just S2 and S3.

[Lava Croft]

Those whole thread is obsolete because it assumes the Alien team is stronger than the Human team, which is incorrect. The problem, as stated above, lies in the fact that most Humans lack the common sense to go out in small groups.