Author Topic: Unbalanced teams  (Read 7028 times)

b0rsuk

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Unbalanced teams
« on: April 20, 2006, 08:39:23 pm »
Hey

As the match progresses, sucky platers tend to leave the losing team. But one of biggest reasons why teams stay unbalanced is that your kills(not sure) and points/money(sure) aren't preserved when you switch team.

I think simply preserving number of kills, and doing some kind of money2points transformation would greatly encourage people to switch.
f you have a demo of ass-kicking basilisk playing against experienced opponents, ESPECIALLY in later stages, send it to me.

SLAVE|Mietz

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Re: Unbalanced teams
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 09:14:12 pm »
Quote from: "b0rsuk"
Hey

As the match progresses, sucky platers tend to leave the losing team. But one of biggest reasons why teams stay unbalanced is that your kills(not sure) and points/money(sure) aren't preserved when you switch team.

I think simply preserving number of kills, and doing some kind of money2points transformation would greatly encourage people to switch.


Like in ET, i like the idea.

And maybe the function "shuffle teams by XP"

where 2000$/9 = 1 alien-evolution-point (yeah easy ^^)

Draconishinobi

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 02:24:10 am »
I agree ... great idea :D

Silverius

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 08:59:12 am »
I see one major problem. All too often these days I see people switching from the losing team. The system would need to prevent against that.

SLAVE|Mietz

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 01:52:37 pm »
Quote from: "Silverius"
I see one major problem. All too often these days I see people switching from the losing team. The system would need to prevent against that.


Yeah, but it would be balanced by  callvote "shuffle teams by XP"

when all "good" players would be equally distributed in the teams.

Also this would get trem a great dynamic-boost, because if you see the game is going into "noobs vs. pros" you can call a shuffle vote, and the game will last longer. :)

Silverius

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 02:18:01 pm »
XP? What XP? I only see kills.

If you're going for kills though the dedicated builders will get treated like noobs. And there's not decent way to distinguish between good and bad builders.

I'd rather have some mechanism promoting playing until the end.

Plus, I've seen teams that looked very weak at first but that made a comeback later in the game (the typical egghunt-tyrantrush situation).

b0rsuk

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 03:03:33 pm »
Quote from: "Silverius"
I see one major problem. All too often these days I see people switching from the losing team. The system would need to prevent against that.


The only major problem here is the one with your logic. The system already does it.
If one of team starts to lose/gets massacred, psychically weak players will leave. When players leave a team, that team has fewer players. When a team has fewer players, you can't just switch to the winning team because tremulous won't let you. You can't join a team which has significantly more (2+?) members.
You will never force all psychically weak players to play until the end, unless you start banning them, which will alienate a lot of players who had to go for valid/important reasons. Instead, the change would remove the barrier preventing players from balancing teams.

Quote
I'd rather have some mechanism promoting playing until the end.

If you have an idea which would work, post it. If you think the change I suggested would negatively impact gameplay, explain. I see no drawbacks for implementing it.

Quote

If you're going for kills though the dedicated builders will get treated like noobs. And there's not decent way to distinguish between good and bad builders.


First of all, the suggested change would change nothing about builders. Second, there are ways, it's just that nobody cares enough to implement them. Some examples:
- grangers would get points for people killed by acid tubes/hives.
- grangers would get some points for enemies killed with booster poison, and HP regenerated with help of booster. That of course would require tweaking to get it right.
- human builders would get points for repairing buildings not damaged by humans.
- human builders would get points for teammates using their repeaters, armories, health pads. If someone builds a healthpad in low traffic area, nobody will use it and no points.
- of course, points for enemies killed by teslas/turrets go to builders.
- granger would get points if he builds an egg while there are insufficient eggs (1 or less, or something), but only if last egg was destroyed by an enemy.
- granger would get points for successfully rebuilding Overmind, if last Overmind was destroyed by enemy.
Obviously, there are actions which can't be measured, but many can be, to certain extent.
-granger would get points for enemies killed while under effect of trapper.

It would never be perfect, but it would still work better than what is there currently - no reward except from players who recognize you're doing good job.

"Shuffle players by xp, without the map restart" tends to be passed more often than just "shuffle players by xp (and restart map)".
f you have a demo of ass-kicking basilisk playing against experienced opponents, ESPECIALLY in later stages, send it to me.

Silverius

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 03:13:02 pm »
I know you can't join a team with the numerical advantage, but I do believe I've seen people using some kind of direct switch. Could be that I'm just misremembering though. In any case people have jumped over at semi equal numbers.

One can't prevent people from leaving. However it might be possible to encourage them to stay in some way.

Quote
Quote:
I'd rather have some mechanism promoting playing until the end.

If you have an idea which would work, post it. If you think the change I suggested would negatively impact gameplay, explain. I see no drawbacks for implementing it.


I'm thinking very much towards a meta game, ranking, karma and the likes.

My comments were mainly directed at the idea of an XP based shuffle and guided by a, perhaps wrong, observation that one can circumvent the player count system. If that's not the case I can't think of any serious objections.

tjw

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 06:45:48 pm »
You can switch teams at any time with the /team console command:

/team humans
/team aliens
/team spectators

The reason people don't I think has more to do with the fact that you lose all of your credits/points so even if you do switch to help a team with less players, you aren't much help :)

I created a patch for transfering points/credits:

https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2677

WolfWings ShadowFlight

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2006, 06:56:21 pm »
Seems like an easier approach would be to simply multiple all damage RECIEVED by a given team by the ratio of players on each team.

Example: Aliens have 4 players, Humans have 6. All humans take 6:4, or 150% damage. All aliens would only take 4:6, or 66.66% damage.
img]http://wolfwings.us/sigs/WolfWings.jpg[/img]

Greewi

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2006, 07:01:09 pm »
Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Seems like an easier approach would be to simply multiple all damage RECIEVED by a given team by the ratio of players on each team.

Example: Aliens have 4 players, Humans have 6. All humans take 6:4, or 150% damage. All aliens would only take 4:6, or 66.66% damage.
Hmm... So alien become 6x6/4x4 = 36/16 = 9/4 more power full than human... :o
It should be nicest to only lower the more populated camp as it is linear not quadratic...
'm sorry for my poor language : it is not my native...

b0rsuk

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2006, 12:49:47 am »
No, increased damage wouldn't matter.
With flamer/lucifer spam it doesn't matter how much damage you deal - you'll still die before you reach enemy.

I really don't like what lucifer is doing with this game. Lucifer makes humans prefer tight corridors with little or no space to run. Self-damage should be increased.
f you have a demo of ass-kicking basilisk playing against experienced opponents, ESPECIALLY in later stages, send it to me.

Howitzer

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2006, 12:22:27 pm »
Lucifer is one though weapon to use effectively :x
To get a dretch, you mostly have to screw over half of your ammo because they're way too fast.
Tyrants are hard but manageble(when they run after you, just keep firing big loads..)

b0rsuk

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2006, 02:13:25 pm »
Quote from: "Howitzer"
Lucifer is one though weapon to use effectively :x
To get a dretch, you mostly have to screw over half of your ammo because they're way too fast.
Tyrants are hard but manageble(when they run after you, just keep firing big loads..)


...but after certain threshold, it doesn't matter it's hard to hit. Once you get 2-3 lucifers in one place, entire area is under splash damage effect and you start hitting things you didn't know were there. Dretches/marauders coming around corners get lucifer in their face. One human shoots at his teammate with lucifer and vice versa.

It's somewhat similar to how Minotaurs (artillery) works in Emperor: Battle For Dune rts. In theory, they're not better than other artillery units - sure they fire one big salvo and reload long, so they aren't too good in small numbers against fast units. One big salvo instead of smaller, faster shots gives them big edge over other artillery units in middle-late game.
But once there's a decent amount of them, long reload doesn't matter anymore because whatever they shoot at won't live enough to shoot back.
f you have a demo of ass-kicking basilisk playing against experienced opponents, ESPECIALLY in later stages, send it to me.

Silverius

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Unbalanced teams
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2006, 02:26:48 pm »
For me the most annoying part of lucifers is the spamming people pull off with them. A single lucifer guy can easily block the front corridor to the human base in tremor (which is long enough to kill a tyrant coming through). If you fully use the power of that you can build all tesla's around the other entrance, making it nearly impossible for aliens to get into the base.

The whole big gun fest pretty much requires three team members to be active with defense all the time. That drains human resources a lot as you also need to defend the other side of the base (usually) and need to move out to kill the aliens. Therefore, while annoying, I don't see it as a major problem (plus, there's always the team damage option ;)).