Double-dodge or Lean and Look?

[player1]

Unreal Tournament had a slightly different control layout (I know that Tremulous is based on Quake 3). UT included a feature (glitch) which allowed a double-tap to move quickly in any direction. If you double-tapped "D" or Strafe Right, for example, you'd quickly dodge right. Do you think that this would be useful/helpful/unbalanced/ghey-tarted for either Humans or perhap select Alien classes?

Deus Ex allowed the player to lean, which made sighting around corners easier (I know that Deus Ex was a UT-based game). DX made sniping a bit more fun, and sighting snipers more fun, too. IIRC, you used "Q" + "E" to lean left or right. Do you believe the ability to lean would be useful/helpful/unbalanced/ridiculous for Humans or perhaps select Alien classes?

I realize that this is an impractical idea, because many players have already rebound the movement keys, and models would have to be animated to show leaning, or perform a double-dodge or double-dash. Discounting technical issues, solely from a gameplay standpoint, would you support/prefer/request double-dodge or lean, or do you have a favorite control from another game, or do you think Trem has enough cool combo moves already? Yes I do know that it's a six-year-old game I discovered six months ago. But since it's standalone, and ready for a new release, maybe some additional control features would add an element of immersion in the gameplay: both Dodge and Lean would make Human much more fun to play, and much more fun to kill.... I mean, umm, compete against. I realize it's probably considered completely unnecessary by people who are used to Quake/Doom/WASD-in-general, I just think it would be more fun to double-dash from dretches and lean around corners with a mass driver. Of course if Stage One Aliens could do it too, that would be sick...

I think Duck and Shoot Over was another really cool one... but that would just be silly, then I'd want Shieldpacks for Basilisks!

[David]

lean no.
double tap movement keys to jump that way? hell yeah.

[temple]

The only thing I want is a double jump or wall jump for humans

[Plague Bringer]

I heard they're throwing in dives and rolls in 1.2.

[Seffylight]

And backflips. Also, humans all get a bullet time feature that'll let them slow down the server speed as they fly through the air (preferably doing flips the whole time, or maybe a few walljumps) unloading with akimbo lasguns.

It's going to be l33t.

[Lava Croft]

the double-tap Dodge is just about the most annoying feature of UT and leaning around corners isn't really useful for Tremulous.

[ShadowNinjaDudeMan]

What do the aliens get, bounce frokm wall to wall on wallwalk?

[Bajsefar]

You can allready do that, silly.

[Plague Bringer]

On wallwalk.

Dretches and Basi's lack the jumping power to propell themselves from, say, one wall in the ATCS corridor to another. It'd be cool and usefull if  they could do that, but only while walking on a wall.

[ShadowNinjaDudeMan]

On wallwalk.

Dretches and Basi's lack the jumping power to propell themselves from, say, one wall in the ATCS corridor to another. It'd be cool and usefull if  they could do that, but only while walking on a wall.

That is what I meant, Bas.

[Paradox]

Umm sprint=dash?

[Mispeled]

Lean could be very useful for humans in S1. It would be better if it didn't change the hitbox position so it couldn't be used to dodge headbites; that would be pretty lame I think.

[ShadowNinjaDudeMan]

LEAN IS A RETARDED IDEA. YOU CAREFULLY APPROACH A CORNER, THEN, CAREFULLTY LEAN ROUND IT, FOR A SPLIT SECOND YOU SEE A DRETCH WALLWALKING GIVE YOU A MOCKING LOOK, THEN TWO PISS-EASY HEADCHOMPS LATER YOU ARE DEAD, ALL BECAUSE OF YOURSELF.


Face it, ts a retarded idea, only if you could see around, but there wasnt a hitbox aropund the corner. So this sort of esy headchomp wouldnt happen.

[Plague Bringer]

[player1]

I'm not sure it would help...

I play mostly as Alien, so Humans sticking their head where I can chomp it don't bother me. Also, the lean key is usually a snapback, you take your finger off, it snaps you back to not leaning. I think you can let go with your strafe finger (and/or drop it down to the strafe key) in about a half a second. Plus, more risk and opportunity equals more things to explore. Everything is not meant to be super-safe. Yes, lean gives you the ability see around corners. Yes, while doing so you are made vulnerable. Any advantage imparts some disadvantage. If you lean far enough, you can shoot around the corner, too.

I'm not necessarily saying Tremulous needs these things. I'm just asking if players remember them from other games, what they thought of them, would they use them, etc. I think everyone realizes that lean would make Humans vulnerable to headshots. No real need for the ALL CAPS, Captain Obvious.

@Para: Yeah, I realize that's what "X" does, it's just a different move, double-tapping any of the WASD keys, instead of reaching down to pile on the sprint. Also, sprint only seems to work for Humans, and I'm not sure it works with strafe (although it's great for backpeddling, or chasing down goons). At least I forget to use sprint with strafe, something which is easier to remember with the double-tap dodge. Again, I'm not saying that Tremulous needs these things. That's really the reason for the poll. I haven't voted yet myself: I remain unconvinced. Just shootin' the granger5h!7 around the ol' Armoury. When exactly does Sprint work in Tremulous (only with W & S, only as Human)? It doesn't seem to do anything for Aliens, and I have to admit I forget to use it with A & D, when I'm Human.

Speaking of the Human bounding box, can anyone provide an image, or a link to one? I've seen some other Trem bboxes, but I don't remember seeing the Human one.

the double-tap Dodge is just about the most annoying feature of UT and leaning around corners isn't really useful for Tremulous.

Thank you. Succinctly stated. For the record, the most annoying feature of UT (apart from the colors, the "updated" weapons, and the freaking berets) has definitely got to be the bot taunts. After about an hour, I hated the bots. By the final deathmatch in the tower, I wanted to rip off their heads and 5h!7 down their neck-holes. Lame and annoying and bogus and old after five minutes. Made Daikatana look well-thought-out. Q3a was much better, even though it was cheesier. If I want to listen to twelve-year olds on Teamspeak, I'll play Counter-Strike, thanks.

lean no.
double tap movement keys to jump that way? hell yeah.

Thanks to you too sir. Concisely put. I'm not convinced lean is needed (although it would add to the general air of creepiness - it put a lot of suspense in DX, and made you literally have to stick your neck out). I really did enjoy the double-tap in UT, even though it was weird to learn and sometimes blameworthy for my own stupidity. Did I mention that I hated the bots? (And I loved Unreal for just that feature - built-in botmatch anytime).

@Bringer & Seffy: I'll assume you voted for no change, then?

@SNDM: If you read the original post it says "Humans or perhaps select Aliens classes". Sure, Aliens would have to get some balancing (further unbalancing?) item as a tradeoff. I like to think it would be the double-tap as well (for maybe S1 classes). As far as lean goes, the ability to headchomp leaning Humans is what the Aliens get.

As far as jumping while wallwalking, it's great, I love it, it works just fine. Dretches make noise when they jump, so, you give your position away, but I'm constantly jumping and toggling wallwalk on and off as an Alien. With melee attacks, movement is key for Aliens. As is stealth, so use with care.

@Mispeled: <3 t3h name... Also, I agree, lean would be cool for S1 Humans (the campers could play even cagier). It would be pretty cool for the Aliens if Humans had this feature, too, (as SNDM sez it would be more stuff to slash at). Shooting around corners is the coolest part. I think I'm gonna vote for both. Although I'll still be happy with neither.

@Baj:

[Paradox]

Here you go:
a human bounding box:

[player1]

wow, that's huge
looks like a phone booth

[Quaoar]

Double tap dodge will severely reduce a dragoon's effectiveness.

Half the time pounce deaths are because a human couldn't run to the side quite fast enough. They're already being nerfed in 1.2, and apparently diving is going to be in 1.2, which in my head is almost the same thing except you're rendered unable to fire for a moment while you're doing it, and I guess maybe the hitbox becomes horizontal for a moment or something.

[player1]

I thought they were joking about the diving...:-?

[benmachine]

They're already being nerfed in 1.2

Lies. The pounce is more vicious in 1.2 (it does the same damage but knockback is D: and your view is knocked about a bit).
If you mean regen, then that's a lie too. Just hold a basilisk near to your heart and bam, double regen in stage 1, triple in stage 2.

Diving was mentioned (by Norfenstein I believe) and a potential idea they'd had but there's no indication it is actually a planned part of 1.2. It is a good idea though, makes playing human more interesting - which really should be our first concern, even more than balance. What's fun to use.
Besides, any skilled dragoon sees the dive in advance and spins 120° on the spot, chomping just where they landed. Or something.

[Plague Bringer]

- which really should be our first concern, even more than balance. What's fun to use.

IMO, being rifle fodder as a newb basi just to heal your team isn't "fun".

[kevlarman]

- which really should be our first concern, even more than balance. What's fun to use.

IMO, being rifle fodder as a newb basi just to heal your team isn't "fun".

as opposed to being rifle fodder as a dretch? it takes 5 minutes to learn how to play basi against humans with less than shotgun/helmet/larmor and against shotguns who are not paying attention to you (like that guy trying to finish the goon on the way out of his base...oh what's that? 2 free evos!). with a little more effort basi becomes one of the most dangerous classes in the game (if there's goons running around in the room containing the human base on atcs, you can assassinate 2-3 humans before they notice you, and then you duck around the corner and you're ready to go back in before the goons are)

[Seffylight]

@Bringer & Seffy: I'll assume you voted for no change, then?

How very astute of you.

[Plague Bringer]

I think I voted no, but only because I don't like the idea of double tapping for dodging.

[Steely Ann]

Also voted no.  Double-tapping in UT was annoying as Hades and I'm not sure what friggin' purpose leaning would accomplish.  Even having the soldier go prone on his belly would accomplish more.

[Paradox]

How about being able to throw your gun like a boomerang?

[Quaoar]

How about being able to throw your gun like a boomerang?

You mean like when bad guys run out of bullets in superhero cartoons and they throw their weapon?

[Steely Ann]

Ooooh, and pistol-whipping!

[Paradox]

YEA! And after you throw you gun, you could throw your shoes!

[Seffylight]

And then it turns out that your shoes are giant anthropomorphic shoebots, and they pull out giant lasers and start doing wallflips like the Prince of Persia.

So cool.