Secondary buildables: Offensive structures.

[Bajsefar]

Okay, i was sitting here reading the forums, and an idea striked me. I do not know if it is good or bad, but i think it could add some more debth to the game.

In my opinion, secondary bases (on the human side) make variation and a need for planning more present in the game. But sadly they are awfullyinferior when it comes to the tight A4 steroid- pumping camper base the humans usually will (and should such as the game is presently set up by deafult) stick with.

What i am suggesting is 2 sets of buildables, where the first group would be the ones we allready have, these are seldom used for anything else than defense as it will make a base a bit too weak when the tyrant rush comes.
This will, as ever before be built by a construction kit.

The second (and new) group of buildables would take from a secondary source of Bpoints, and would have a slightly different function:
1: you would not need a ckit to construct them, you could rather buy one of these babies in the armoury, and be able to deploy it (almost) where you liked.

But calling them secondary, their quality would also be a bit worse.
You could as an example have:

-Offensive turrets: Functioning as normal turrets would, only with less hit points, higher range and slower turning speed, same damage. In addition they would have the ability to fire at alien structures

-Forward telenodes: These would not work without actual telenodes in function, as they are merely using the base telenodes to tansport you to the forward post at spawning. (you would maybe get an option to
 spawn at a forward node substitute or at the regular telenodes(?))

Forward refilling station, would be able to give you ammo, medkits (pressing "b" in front of these would give you ammo nd a medkit, they would not, however be able to heal like a medpad does. In addition you could be able to buy basic s1 and s2 equipment from it. They would not work without their "normal" counterparts (a.k.a the normal armoury, medstation, and souch would be for all offensive structures and their counterparts).

All these would cost, say one offensive bps, in a regular game of 12- 16 players, about 6 offensive bps would be supplied.

The main strategic element here will be the offensive turrets, since they will actually be able to fire at alien structures, but with slower turn rate they will not be much good as defense.

The notch would be not being able to build offensive structures in the vincinity of your defensive structures.

They would be instantly build, but with low hp and stats and functions that make them little usable for camping.

You could slightly nerf the normal defensitive structures, in bps mainly, say, 16 less bps in a normal game ( consdering "normal game" as 12- 16 players) this would mean about -2 turrets. But you could be able to teleport back to the defensitive telenodes using a forward node, to hinder the offensive structures from creating the problem that makes forward base builders accused of being mindless noobs: leaving the main base ready and stewed for the aliens.

None of the offensitive structures would work at all without a reactor, though they would not need to be in range of a reactor or repeater (on the contrary, they would not work if the reactor or a repeater came too close.

Feel freee to add to the idea, i might have forgotten something or mixed something up to make the idea more unbalanced.

My idea with this was making the humans more able to get out of their base and around, without making their main base too easy prey.

The problem with the far-too-usual camp- camp situation is that humans cannot get out of the base because the aliens are camping because they can not get into the human base.

Edit:To give an idea of The stats i was thinking about i will give an estimation of how many alien clawings they could take:

Tyrants: one hitting all offensive structures.
Goons: one hitting forward turrets, 2 hitting forward nodes and med/ammo
Marauders, basilisks and dretches would all be able to 2 or 3 hit these structures.

See how this would be completely useless for defending, but could be a nice way to get out of the bas and jabbing at weak spots?

Edit x2: The forward teleode- teleport back to base nodes would set you on a 5- 10 second timer to arrive. fast enough to be able to save the main base, slow enough to allow aliens to get in attacks.

Edit x3: and with some tweaking, this might solve both the problem with humans camping and aliens camping because it would make it a bit less affordable for the humans to camp, since they are wasting more potential, and a bit easier for aliens to break the human base since they would earn more on going out.

The offensive turets would have a slow enough turning speed to allow for moderately agile alien players too keep out of fire even at maximum range.

Edit x4: sorry for any typos, i was zealously immensed in this idea.

[Odin]

We already have enough base-fighting on SST.

[Survivor]

Bajsefar getting to the point

The second (and new) group of buildables would take from a secondary source of Bpoints, and would have a slightly different function:
1: you would not need a ckit to construct them, you could rather buy one of these babies in the armoury, and be able to deploy it (almost) where you liked.

I can live with the plan so far.

But calling them secondary, their quality would also be a bit worse.
You could as an example have:

-Offensive turrets: Functioning as normal turrets would, only with less hit points, higher range and slower turning speed, same damage. In addition they would have the ability to fire at alien structures

To fire at alien structures seems overpowered. An offensive turret could be left by a psaw to finish om off while the aliens are trying to get the psaw. The rest seem reasonable enough for now, maybe restrict firing angle?

-Forward telenodes: These would not work without actual telenodes in function, as they are merely using the base telenodes to tansport you to the forward post at spawning. (you would maybe get an option to
 spawn at a forward node substitute or at the regular telenodes(?))

I completely like this idea if you are able to choose between spawning at forward nodes and base nodes. But don't make people choose exactly which node and do have these require power and the ability to have defensive structures near for the obvious reasons.

Forward refilling station, would be able to give you ammo, medkits (pressing "b" in front of these would give you ammo nd a medkit, they would not, however be able to heal like a medpad does. In addition you could be able to buy basic s1 and s2 equipment from it. They would not work without their "normal" counterparts (a.k.a the normal armoury, medstation, and souch would be for all offensive structures and their counterparts).

Have the ammo take time to reload fully. So for example 30 bullets/second for b held. This would prevent people from spamming.
i think you should have it the other way around when it comes to healing. Pressing b heals you but doesn't give you a medkit at 100. Else you could medkit, use, get medkit and have a full loadout.

All these would cost, say one offensive bps, in a regular game of 12- 16 players, about 6 offensive bps would be supplied.

Why not node 1, off tur 1, forward refilling station 2

The main strategic element here will be the offensive turrets, since they will actually be able to fire at alien structures, but with slower turn rate they will not be much good as defense.

See my above statement about the turrets

The notch would be not being able to build offensive structures in the vincinity of your defensive structures.

For the turret and refill station i can understand but the forward nodes need the defence lest they become feedpoints.

They would be instantly build, but with low hp and stats and functions that make them little usable for camping.

With you on that one.

You could slightly nerf the normal defensitive structures, in bps mainly, say, 16 less bps in a normal game ( consdering "normal game" as 12- 16 players) this would mean about -2 turrets. But you could be able to teleport back to the defensitive telenodes using a forward node, to hinder the offensive structures from creating the problem that makes forward base builders accused of being mindless noobs: leaving the main base ready and stewed for the aliens.

Needs consideration since pursuing aliens cannot follow a weakened human who escapes through one of them. I'm afraid they might become escape portals this way.

None of the offensitive structures would work at all without a reactor, though they would not need to be in range of a reactor or repeater (on the contrary, they would not work if the reactor or a repeater came too close.

Feel free to add to the idea, i might have forgotten something or mixed something up to make the idea more unbalanced.
My idea with this was making the humans more able to get out of their base and around, without making their main base too easy prey.

Understandable

The problem with the far-too-usual camp- camp situation is that humans cannot get out of the base because the aliens are camping because they can not get into the human base.

Often true

Edit:To give an idea of The stats i was thinking about i will give an estimation of how many alien clawings they could take:

Tyrants: one hitting all offensive structures.
Goons: one hitting forward turrets, 2 hitting forward nodes and med/ammo
Marauders, basilisks and dretches would all be able to 2 or 3 hit these structures.

See how this would be completely useless for defending, but could be a nice way to get out of the bas and jabbing at weak spots?

goons,1 turret, 1 node, 2 for refill point. Rest gets suited accordingly.

Edit x2: The forward teleode- teleport back to base nodes would set you on a 5- 10 second timer to arrive. fast enough to be able to save the main base, slow enough to allow aliens to get in attacks.

Edit x3: and with some tweaking, this might solve both the problem with humans camping and aliens camping because it would make it a bit less affordable for the humans to camp, since they are wasting more potential, and a bit easier for aliens to break the human base since they would earn more on going out.

Not so sure about these two points.

The offensive turets would have a slow enough turning speed to allow for moderately agile alien players too keep out of fire even at maximum range.

Lousy in a long small hallway.

[temple]

Alien Structures are so weak, if you can get a deployable near them, you might as well kill them.  

How would balance these?  It will be buying build points which having more structures puts extra load on the server and removes the actual player driven fighting.

[Bajsefar]

We already have enough base-fighting on SST.

I think forward bases should reward themselves, they exploit the strategical potential of the maps in a much higher degree, and makes the game deeper and less mindless. As it is now, not much strategical planning is required to build turret walls. With forward bases that actually are worth the bps, good thinking can save the match, which is difficult in regular games with random people as we regularely play.

Now onto the real reply.

Bajsefar wrote:

The second (and new) group of buildables would take from a secondary source of Bpoints, and would have a slightly different function:
1: you would not need a ckit to construct them, you could rather buy one of these babies in the armoury, and be able to deploy it (almost) where you liked.


I can live with the plan so far.

Good, I'm not that lost then.

Bajsefar wrote:

But calling them secondary, their quality would also be a bit worse.
You could as an example have:

-Offensive turrets: Functioning as normal turrets would, only with less hit points, higher range and slower turning speed, same damage. In addition they would have the ability to fire at alien structures


To fire at alien structures seems overpowered. An offensive turret could be left by a psaw to finish om off while the aliens are trying to get the psaw. The rest seem reasonable enough for now, maybe restrict firing angle?

Ok, with, say 6 secondary(offensive) bps, that would mean a maximum of 6 turrets 4 or 5 with forward nodes and 3 with Ammo station.
Not much Hp, restricted firing angle (liked that one) they would not be very campable, especially since the humans have to go back to their main bases for heavier weaponary and armour.

And it would only be moderately holdable in a 1- exited alien base, no sane maps have got that deafult, if you build yourself into the window room in karith you deserve to die.

The forward structures was intended in my thoughts to be very temporary and easily ridden off, only to help humans getting out without making their vital structures to vunreable.

Bajsefar wrote:

-Forward telenodes: These would not work without actual telenodes in function, as they are merely using the base telenodes to tansport you to the forward post at spawning. (you would maybe get an option to
spawn at a forward node substitute or at the regular telenodes(?))

I completely like this idea if you are able to choose between spawning at forward nodes and base nodes. But don't make people choose exactly which node and do have these require power and the ability to have defensive structures near for the obvious reasons.

Yes, we agree totally on this point. Nuff said here between us.

Bajsefar wrote:

Forward refilling station, would be able to give you ammo, medkits (pressing "b" in front of these would give you ammo nd a medkit, they would not, however be able to heal like a medpad does. In addition you could be able to buy basic s1 and s2 equipment from it. They would not work without their "normal" counterparts (a.k.a the normal armoury, medstation, and souch would be for all offensive structures and their counterparts).

Have the ammo take time to reload fully. So for example 30 bullets/second for b held. This would prevent people from spamming.
i think you should have it the other way around when it comes to healing. Pressing b heals you but doesn't give you a medkit at 100. Else you could medkit, use, get medkit and have a full loadout.

Ok, make the healing either instant with a long cooldown, or gradual like the medpad. Either way, i understand why the medkit idea was bad.....maybe if the medkit dispensing was on cooldown?

Bajsefar wrote:

All these would cost, say one offensive bps, in a regular game of 12- 16 players, about 6 offensive bps would be supplied.

Why not node 1, off tur 1, forward refilling station 2

Because 1 on all of them was easy keeping track of cooking up the idea.
But as changing the amount of OBPS (offensive bps) required does not really disrupt the idea i'm ok with it.
Although i was thinkinh that you could aqquire offensive structures to be deployed in armory, so an attack team would plan what structures to bring, eventually request more brought.
Calls for more strategy and debth.

Bajsefar wrote:

The main strategic element here will be the offensive turrets, since they will actually be able to fire at alien structures, but with slower turn rate they will not be much good as defense.

See my above statement about the turrets

I kinda wanted the forward base setup to be very free.
If you want 1 or 2 or 3 forward bases, maybe you want only turrets or forward nodes? ammo stations would ot really be more worth than turrets or nodes would they?

Bajsefar wrote:

The second (and new) group of buildables would take from a secondary source of Bpoints, and would have a slightly different function:
1: you would not need a ckit to construct them, you could rather buy one of these babies in the armoury, and be able to deploy it (almost) where you liked.


I can live with the plan so far.

Good, I'm not that lost then.

Bajsefar wrote:

But calling them secondary, their quality would also be a bit worse.
You could as an example have:

-Offensive turrets: Functioning as normal turrets would, only with less hit points, higher range and slower turning speed, same damage. In addition they would have the ability to fire at alien structures


To fire at alien structures seems overpowered. An offensive turret could be left by a psaw to finish om off while the aliens are trying to get the psaw. The rest seem reasonable enough for now, maybe restrict firing angle?

Ok, with, say 6 secondary(offensive) bps, that would mean a maximum of 6 turrets 4 or 5 with forward nodes and 3 with Ammo station.
Not much Hp, restricted firing angle (liked that one) they would not be very campable, especially since the humans have to go back to their main bases for heavier weaponary and armour.

And it would only be moderately holdable in a 1- exited alien base, no sane maps have got that deafult, if you build yourself into the window room in karith you deserve to die.

The forward structures was intended in my thoughts to be very temporary and easily ridden off, only to help humans getting out without making their vital structures to vunreable.

Bajsefar wrote:

-Forward telenodes: These would not work without actual telenodes in function, as they are merely using the base telenodes to tansport you to the forward post at spawning. (you would maybe get an option to
spawn at a forward node substitute or at the regular telenodes(?))

I completely like this idea if you are able to choose between spawning at forward nodes and base nodes. But don't make people choose exactly which node and do have these require power and the ability to have defensive structures near for the obvious reasons.

Yes, we agree totally on this point. Nuff said here between us.

Bajsefar wrote:

Forward refilling station, would be able to give you ammo, medkits (pressing "b" in front of these would give you ammo nd a medkit, they would not, however be able to heal like a medpad does. In addition you could be able to buy basic s1 and s2 equipment from it. They would not work without their "normal" counterparts (a.k.a the normal armoury, medstation, and souch would be for all offensive structures and their counterparts).

Have the ammo take time to reload fully. So for example 30 bullets/second for b held. This would prevent people from spamming.
i think you should have it the other way around when it comes to healing. Pressing b heals you but doesn't give you a medkit at 100. Else you could medkit, use, get medkit and have a full loadout.

Ok, make the healing either instant with a long cooldown, or gradual like the medpad. Either way, i understand why the medkit idea was bad.....maybe if the medkit dispensing was on cooldown?

Bajsefar wrote:

All these would cost, say one offensive bps, in a regular game of 12- 16 players, about 6 offensive bps would be supplied.

Why not node 1, off tur 1, forward refilling station 2

Because 1 on all of them was easy keeping track of cooking up the idea.
But as changing the amount of OBPS (offensive bps) required does not really disrupt the idea i'm ok with it.
Although i was thinkinh that you could aqquire offensive structures to be deployed in armory, so an attack team would plan what structures to bring, eventually request more brought.
Calls for more strategy and debth.

Bajsefar wrote:

The notch would be not being able to build offensive structures in the vincinity of your defensive structures.

For the turret and refill station i can understand but the forward nodes need the defence lest they become feedpoints.

Forward nodes without defense gets an automatical self destruct?
Once you lose the forward base you could retreat through the forward nodes and try again.

I imagine the OBPS structure bases would be easilly lost, needed to be rebuildt often.

Bajsefar wrote:

They would be instantly build, but with low hp and stats and functions that make them little usable for camping.

With you on that one.

Ok.

Bajsefar wrote:

You could slightly nerf the normal defensitive structures, in bps mainly, say, 16 less bps in a normal game ( consdering "normal game" as 12- 16 players) this would mean about -2 turrets. But you could be able to teleport back to the defensitive telenodes using a forward node, to hinder the offensive structures from creating the problem that makes forward base builders accused of being mindless noobs: leaving the main base ready and stewed for the aliens.

Needs consideration since pursuing aliens cannot follow a weakened human who escapes through one of them. I'm afraid they might become escape portals this way.

Maybe put a short delay before you are transported away?
Anyway, the danger would lie in actually putting up the OBPS bases and staying there, a quick escape will prevent thisfrom becoming a feedfest.

But if you made the forward nodes have a small cooldown between each player using the transport feature?

This way the escapes could be very exciting.

Bajsefar wrote:

None of the offensitive structures would work at all without a reactor, though they would not need to be in range of a reactor or repeater (on the contrary, they would not work if the reactor or a repeater came too close.


Bajsefar wrote:

Feel free to add to the idea, i might have forgotten something or mixed something up to make the idea more unbalanced.
My idea with this was making the humans more able to get out of their base and around, without making their main base too easy prey.

Understandable

obviously you wouldnt want the OBPS structures to help the campers build thicker turret walls.

's a long post.

Bajsefar wrote:

Edit:To give an idea of The stats i was thinking about i will give an estimation of how many alien clawings they could take:

Tyrants: one hitting all offensive structures.
Goons: one hitting forward turrets, 2 hitting forward nodes and med/ammo
Marauders, basilisks and dretches would all be able to 2 or 3 hit these structures.

See how this would be completely useless for defending, but could be a nice way to get out of the bas and jabbing at weak spots?

goons,1 turret, 1 node, 2 for refill point. Rest gets suited accordingly.

Sounds fair. Dretches should be able to kill all OBPS structures though.

Bajsefar wrote:

Edit x2: The forward teleode- teleport back to base nodes would set you on a 5- 10 second timer to arrive. fast enough to be able to save the main base, slow enough to allow aliens to get in attacks.

Edit x3: Blahblah.

Not so sure about these two points.

If the humans can insta- teleport back to base the aliens will find themselves ambushed by campers outta nowhere if they touch the reactor.

Should have a warning if any defensitive structures took damage tho.
Warning upon: turret/arm/med getting destroyed.
                      Nodes, reactors or repeaters taking damage.

Bajsefar wrote:

The offensive turets would have a slow enough turning speed to allow for moderately agile alien players too keep out of fire even at maximum range.

Lousy in a long small hallway.

You somehow took this up allready.

Alien Structures are so weak, if you can get a deployable near them, you might as well kill them.

How would balance these? It will be buying build points which having more structures puts extra load on the server and removes the actual player driven fighting.

The turrets- shooting - alien structures is not really vital for the idea.


Just my 50$ since that was alotta thinking.

[A_Total_noob]

+1

I like the ideas, and hope they get included in 1.2

[4RT1LL3RY]

What would be the alien equivalent?  If humans have secondary BPS, so should aliens.  Its a good idea but it lacks balance, because it would be weird if you saw an alien drop a booster on the ground out of nowhere.  Possibly the item could act as a 1 time use type of deal, where the carrier can't fire any real weapon but the blaster, they can deploy it any time and then run back to base to get a weapon.

[temple]

Really, humans need a supply drop as a deployable.  But other than that, deployables would be too damning against the alien team.

[Captain Ventris]

Really, humans need a supply drop as a deployable.  But other than that, deployables would be too damning against the alien team.

One-use Trapper Drops.

Or fake buildings that looked like real ones, but exploded into acid when a human got near.